England vs Italy - 10/03/2013

[Crapspray]

Well I think I might drown my sorrows, or at least take the attitude it was a wake-up call.

I think England's game-plan was all over the place. It seemed like they wanted to put points on the board, but when it came to the penalties they just kicked them. I've always thought that when you play an underdog, who's got nothing to lose, the best thing to do is score a try and take the wind out of their sails early on. England did that to Scotland with Twelvetree's try at the beginning of the second half, and really should have put 14+ on Italy in the first 25 minutes. They just grew bolder as England butchered opportunities. Cue England trying to force slow ball into a packed Italian defence.

Half-backs were bad. Care was okay, kicking excluded, but Flood was poor. To be fair, he wasn't helped by anyone else. As said, Burns would have been nice to see on, I can only guess that Flood was kept on for his kicking from the tee. Goode coming in as second-receiver was bad, as well; he just congested the back line. It was comfortably his worst performance in an England shirt.

The most worrying part of all was the inability to change tack half-way through the game. Something England seemed to have managed to do in the last three games. It clearly wasn't working spinning it wide, and the backs were having an awful match, so just pick and drive. Why did no one, player or coach, just tell them to stuff it up the jumper and give up trying to score tries on the second phase? Having said that, we had about two carriers today, Tom Youngs and Mako Vunipola. Morgan can't return soon enough.

I just hope it was a kick up the arse that helps focus their minds on next Saturday. They stand a good chance of winning the match. So long as they don't play anything like today...

 

[Amobokoboko]

Second half was much better to watch. England had a ugly win but a win. Italy had a couple of opportunities to draw the game at the of the second half but they gave away just too many penalties.

 

[g6mcg]

If Lawes and/or Parling are out for the Wales game, what the eff do we do?
Both looked to pick up knocks (I think Lawes would have gone off if there was a sub to use), and both have history of injury...

Lineout lock-wise (though I imagine Croft will take over lineout running if Parling goes) we have Robson and...? Gaskell? Neither are international standard, I don't think.
Lawes replacement: Slater? Been playing well for Tigers. How's Attwood doing at Barf? Not had much opportunity to watch any prem games the past couple of weeks, only time I've seen him was when he got double speared vs Glaws. Garvey
Kitcheners been playing OK for Tigers but...I dunno. I just don't like rate him very highly. Looking at the Saxons, other than Slater/Robson/Kitchener we have....Deacon and Botha. ... ... ... Next!




Edit: Haha, just realised this whole post is basically recreated above - that'll teach me to go to an open tab and not refresh before replying :lol:

Wasn't Botha brought/kept in as injury cover earlier in the tournament? That might suggest he's next in line, although I imagine the Welsh will be happier with that than the English! I suppose we might also see Croft in at 6 for the lineouts, but I don't know who that'd leave to take over the running of them.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

In the premiership this season our starting back three has scored 8 tries combined.

Other players have got:
Thompstone: 6 tries
Varndell: 11 tries
Wade: 9 tries
Jonny May: 4 tries
Tom Williams: 4 tries
Strettle: 5 tries
Biggs: 4 tries
Jamie Elliot: 6 tries
Ugo Monye: 5 tries

Now I'm not saying they all deserve to be in the England squad, but if you want to be scoring tries you should probably be picking the players that know their way to the whitewash.
Personally, I've been very impressed with Thompstone. He was good at Irish but has really blossomed at Tigers. Well rounded winger and great finisher. Would like to see him and May in the EPS.

 

[Peat]

Wasn't Botha brought/kept in as injury cover earlier in the tournament? That might suggest he's next in line, although I imagine the Welsh will be happier with that than the English! I suppose we might also see Croft in at 6 for the lineouts, but I don't know who that'd leave to take over the running of them.

I think you're right about that. Now, welcome to the forum and never mention such depressing truths again.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Just watched the game on iplayer having avoided all mention of the score. Yeah I'm very very disappointed with the performance, not going to lie. But I do agree with Dallaglio that it will maybe prepare us better for next week having had the kick up the arse.

Tony I'm sorry but I've no clue what substance you're taking: Goode today was utter uttter utter shite. Missed tackles, butchered tries, and generally brought nothing. Mike Brown on the other hand saved our asses on a number of occassions, such as that turnover at the end, and he generally had a good stab at being a winger. We seriously need to expedite Foden back in at 15, if only for his link-up with Ashton.

The good?
I thought Tom Wood was pretty immense, he managed to maintain the presence at the breakdown he's been having 6 whilst having the skill to control the game from number 8. Got us out of some sticky situations to boot. I thought Tom Youngs was great and a top carrier again. Dan cole put in another good shift.

Toby Flood really confuses me. He takes the ball to the line better than Farrell, by his style of play he should be a better distributing 10 than Farrell...but whenever he plays our backline is even worse than normal. I have no idea why that's the case. I think the same about Care. In theory he's better in a number of ways, but at the end of it it doesn't quite add up. I'd have no hesitation in reuniting Youngs and Farrell next week.

Classic that people come out with the "If England play like this net week Wales will smash them" I have a bad feeling about next week, but that statement is still a load of cliched ********. This said, if Lawes and Parling are out we should just give up now. Palmer would be a decent option to steady the <STRIKE> ship </STRIKE> rubber dingy but I think the *******'s injured.

meh I don't know what to suggest for a better performance next week. I guess for me the primary thing is to stop playing guys out of postion. If you play guys where they don't normally play, it all looks fine and is swept under the rug until the central engine/game-plan of the team breaks down...in England's case, taking the ball up with good around the corner carriers, winning quick ball, and exploiting poor defensive organisation rather than exploiting the space out wide...after that fails, having players out of position becomes more and more obvious. Morgan back next week would be awesome. Put Haskell to the bench, and Croft can wait until argentina. Bring back Foden and beg him for forgiveness. Tell Goode to come back when's he's not a massive twat at rugby. Give Youngs the shirt back, and Farrell the 10 shirt back. I guess Flood can warm the bench, but frankly the sooner Burns gets gametime the better. Torn over Vunipola and Marler. I want Corbisero. With Vunipola benching.

By the way, it's really annoying when you read a whole thread after a game and all you see is other nations' supporters just berating the referee for every decision that DIDN'T go against England. Just because its England. The team playing England can suddenly do no wrong. I just find that irritating but more to the point, I just think its a bit sad.

In summary, its taken me ages to post nothing of consequence whatsoever. damm.

EDIT: I've thought of a huge consolation for next week for England: Toby Faletau will be playing

 

[big ginger 8]

Toby Flood really confuses me. He takes the ball to the line better than Farrell, by his style of play he should be a better distributing 10 than Farrell...but whenever he plays our backline is even worse than normal. I have no idea why that's the case. I think the same about Care. In theory he's better in a number of ways, but at the end of it it doesn't quite add up. I'd have no hesitation in reuniting Youngs and Farrell next week.

Just a point Shane Horgan made on RTE he thinks with Barritt in the midfield you have a guy with the wrong skillset outside him. While good at other stuff he's clearly not the best distributor and with Flood taking it to the line a defence in your face it gets to hard for him. He thinks someone like Twelvetrees (clearly) would be better suited outside Flood.

 

[Patchey]

Watched the game live and have a few thoughts,

1) England were poor at securing high ball both in open play and from the restart which we haven't seen much of before.

2) Goode, as has been mentioned, had a poor game.

3) Any spark we had in the backs vanished when Ben Youngs came on. Care-Flood hadn't exactly been setting the pitch on fire but Youngs was terrible.

4) On a similar note, Ashton and Brown actually looked good going forwards when we got the ball to them with some momentum going. Unfortunately due to Flood blowing hot and cold and then Youngs coming on these occasions were few and far between.

5) Forwards had a fairly good game, a few turn overs aside, and it was incredible to see Croft back. The reception he got was awesome and he was also a good line out option.


I'll watch the game back before saying any more.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Just a point Shane Horgan made on RTE he thinks with Barritt in the midfield you have a guy with the wrong skillset outside him. While good at other stuff he's clearly not the best distributor and with Flood taking it to the line a defence in your face it gets to hard for him. He thinks someone like Twelvetrees (clearly) would be better suited outside Flood.

I'd disagree, Flood always looks like he's played well; makes half-breaks, chips over the top, kicks well and passes ok. But this has never actually led to a whole lot of good or tries.
I don't think Barritt is Flood's issue, he might seem like he's doing good things but he's simply not effective when you look at his 50+ caps.

 

[big ginger 8]

I'd disagree, Flood always looks like he's played well; makes half-breaks, chips over the top, kicks well and passes ok. But this has never actually led to a whole load of points or tries.
I don't think Barritt is Flood's issue, he might seem like he's doing good things but he's simply not effective when you look at his 50+ caps.

How many of his caps have come with similar 12's to Barritt? Hape et al weren't exactly fantastic passers. Anyway not saying he'd suddenly be amazing just that he may be more effective.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Most... Noon, Farrell (Andy), Hipkiss.
He's mainly played with Anthony Allen at Leicester, although he played a bit with 36 there too.

 

[Saint Matt]

I saw the game live and haven't yet seen replay, but these are my initial thoughts..

For me, that was the worst performance of the tournament so far - and by quite a way. Flood was absolutely shocking, but once again Ashton was genuinly terrible in all aspects of play (North and Cuthbert will be laughing their socks off) His confidence is completly shot to pieces, and he seems to lack the belief needed to back himself at times - especially when in space.

Alex Goode was awful, and has been since his first game against Fiji IMO. On current form, doesn't justify being in front of Brown at 15, simple as that. A main concern for me today was the lack of speed and attacking lines provided from 15 - something Brown is superb at. Barritt had his worst game in an England shirt, and Tuilagi looked highly ineffective outside him. Danny Care was his usual lively self out of 9, but his ball distribution was ridiculously poor at times today, and when you couple that with a back line as slow as ours with ball in hand you are going to struggle.

On a + note, I thought we kept our disipline for the majority, and several of the forwards had decent games. Vunipola, T. Youngs and Dan Cole all got through **** loads of work - something that will need to be backed up against Wales, whilst Parling and Launchbury both had strong games.

In some ways, the first half was more concerning IMO. Italy played pretty well in the second half and we were hanging on by our fingertips, but he failure to take two clear cut opportunities in the first half was particularly concerning. It's certainly a kick up the arse, that's for sure. Hopefully Farrell and Morgan return to the squad, and Lancaster makes the changed needed.

 

[B10]

Injuries to Eng locks: Joe Launchbury elbow, left Twk w arm in sling, must be major doubt for Cardiff. Parling stinger injury to shoulder. @5LiveRugby

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Damn...
No mention of Lawes, so hopefully his knock on-field is nothing sinister. Also if Parling's was just a stinger then he should be fine.
Hopefully Launchbury recovers, but it's a relatively short turn around...

 

[Big Ewis]

To me this 6N is taking an almost story-telling aspect, like an old tale.
Italy remind me of this ghost that wakes up every once in a while for a fabulous encounter, they stayed as powerful throughout against us, and it's with open arms that I accept our defeat in Rome. They did it again this time, I thought for SURE they'd break around the hour mark...but no, they got more intense. They ACTUALLY scored the only try of the match, in Twickenham, with a bit of hindsight now can you BELIEVE THAT ?! Like, sorry Wales and Scotland but the team you played wasn't a tenth of this.

And as a pure Rugby fan, someone who has a knack for pretty, aesthetics rather than ugly-but-efficient, I wish I could pat the guys on the back for showing such attacking flair, or at very least exuberance offensively, a generous game; and they really surprised me with the high level of passing, usually they'll make 2 or 3 and the 4th would go astray right into the crowd or into the receiver's foot. They kept it pro for the entire match.

Finally: Congrats England for surviving...this is a terrible chapter in this year's book for you, but hey it's a win, you've avoided the worst.

EDIT: say, just thought about this. Aren't Irish fans ******** their pants after seeing this ?! :lol: kidding here, but I mean they may be facing the Italian team of Twickenham, and they're IN ROME this time...Italians will want to finish on a high obviously, and with this momentum ?...
I should keep this for the *Italy VS Ireland" thread but...we'll get 3pts when we beat Scotland next week, and Ireland may actually get the Spoon this year if we beat Scotland by like 20...

Beginning of the tournament: "France are the favorites...NO Ireland are !!" :lol: gooooooood stuff.........good stuff.

 

[psychic duck]

Did Castro go off early injured?

Either way, Cittadini did a very good job coming on and saved the Italian scrum from a repeat of Wales the week before. Steadied it up, even pushed England back a few times. Cittadini is normally considered on a par with Castro scrummaging but with Castro getting picked as an important ball carrier. But with Castro off his usual standard at the scrum, Cittadini may well start.

Fair play to Andrea Masi by the way. With Orquera's feeble weak tackling (which for a large part cost Italy tries in that 2011 thumping), this time round, Italy hid Orquera well with Masi doing all his tackling for him. Masi made 12 tackles whilst Orquera was hidden and only had to make 1 tackle attempt. Such a contrast to 2011, where Orquera had to make 14 attempts according to scrum.com several of which he missed.

 

[Zed]

One of the reasons why Martin Johnson failed was because he insisted on going for the ‘safe option’ when selecting players i.e players like Hape & Tindall where he knew they were going to make their tackles, make a few yards with the ball, make few mistakes etc etc But that really limited the team in attack, hence the reason they never really scored many tries. And Lancaster is possibly going down that path with some of his backs. Brown, Goode & Barrit add very little potency to the back line. Brown has been pretty solid, good under the high ball, makes his tackles, gains yards etc but he is not an international winger. If he was a Kiwi, there would be 9 or 10 other wingers in front of him. Lancaster has to start taking a few risks, players like Vardnell & Wade have their weaknesses, such as defence, but they offer so much more than Brown does in attack. When you pick a wing, your first priority is his ability to attack not his ability to defend.an Brown does in attack. When you pick a wing, your first priority is his ability to attack not his ability to defend.

 

[djames6]

Even Dawson on the radio was a little confused by Clancy's lack of consistency. As Jonathan Davies said on the tele, and Woodward nodded in agreement, most of the time he refereed Italy but didn't referee England. In his post match interview, Lancaster should have thanked Clancy.

 

[nickdnz]

One of the reasons why Martin Johnson failed was because he insisted on going for the 'safe option' when selecting players i.e players like Hape & Tindall where he knew they were going to make their tackles, make a few yards with the ball, make few mistakes etc etc But that really limited the team in attack, hence the reason they never really scored many tries. And Lancaster is possibly going down that path with some of his backs. Brown, Goode & Barrit add very little potency to the back line. Brown has been pretty solid, good under the high ball, makes his tackles, gains yards etc but he is not an international winger. If he was a Kiwi, there would be 9 or 10 other wingers in front of him. Lancaster has to start taking a few risks, players like Vardnell & Wade have their weaknesses, such as defence, but they offer so much more than Brown does in attack. When you pick a wing, your first priority is his ability to attack not his ability to defend.an Brown does in attack. When you pick a wing, your first priority is his ability to attack not his ability to defend.

Remember Brown is a fullback and not a winger - he's just being put on the wing cause England are going down the most boring and safe path possible (as you mentioned). I'd love to see Wade or Varndell on the wings with Brown/Foden at fullback. I agree they seem to have taken a step back - like they started winning through creative back play, but then immediately associated winning with playing conservatively and defensively - which wasn't how they beat New Zealand, but it's how they've always gone about beating NH teams. I agree that by playing this way they are capping their potential.

 

[Zed]

Remember Brown is a fullback and not a winger - he's just being put on the wing cause England are going down the most boring and safe path possible (as you mentioned). I'd love to see Wade or Varndell on the wings with Brown/Foden at fullback. I agree they seem to have taken a step back - like the started winning through creative back play, but then immediately associated winning with playing conservatively and defensively - which wasn't how the beat New Zealand, but it's how they've always gone about beating NH teams. I agree that by playing this way they are capping their potential.

Yeah I know Brown is a FB. Actually he's a good player & I rate him. He should have the England 15 shirt. I wasn't criticisng him as a player, more Lancaster's decision to field a player out of position. Seems to be a common trait with England coaches.