France's fall from the top

[RedruthRFC]

Mourad Boudjellal mustn't have gotten that memo...

I'd like to hear how the system works. If Wikipedia is to be believed, 18 out of Toulon's squad of 39 are French.

 

[gaston le gaff]

Leave Jake alone Heineken, or i will be coming to get yoooooooooooou, the funnny thing is, that the season before last Toulon actually had the most French players who were on the team sheets that qualified for the Jiff hard to understand but very true, and last season they were in the top 3 team quotas. The teams that did not make the required Jiff quotas 55% were Brive La Rochelle and Oyonnnax i think Also the very fact that Noves is taking over after the WC France will improve.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Their talent has been spread too thin around the league. Back when France were serious contenders in world rugby they had a strong Toulouse presence. Familiarity and combinations are vital in rugby and France's players don't play with each other at club level as much as other nations and they spend less time in international camp then other nations.

They should be a different beast come the World Cup, they won't because their coach is ***** but they should.

 

[TheSaffycen]

A lot has to do with Saint- Andre. Now I don't know if he was the guy choosing the squad but he went against players like Trinh-Duc, played Fofana on the wing, and then the style of play was non existent. If you gave most national coaches Parra, Trinh Duc, Nakiataki, Fofana, Fritz, Huget, Dulin and you would see some absolutely beautiful rugby played.

 

[gaston le gaff]

I'd like to hear how the system works. If Wikipedia is to be believed, 18 out of Toulon's squad of 39 are French.

Firstly the Jiff players at Toulon are 26 + 18 foreign players that makes 44 and not 39, the Jiff states that 55% on average over the season must be Jiff qualified, so if you look at it from that angle there is no problem at all, you have to remember that all clubs play a minimum of 26 Top 14 and 6 Euro games + Internationals for many just one reason why the clubs need masssive squads

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A lot has to do with Saint- Andre. Now I don't know if he was the guy choosing the squad but he went against players like Trinh-Duc, played Fofana on the wing, and then the style of play was non existent. If you gave most national coaches Parra, Trinh Duc, Nakiataki, Fofana, Fritz, Huget, Dulin and you would see some absolutely beautiful rugby played.

Agreed but i think the song will be sung on a superior note the moment Noves is in charge, not my choice but still 100% better thaN PSA.

 

[RedruthRFC]

Firstly the Jiff players at Toulon are 26 + 18 foreign players that makes 44 and not 39, the Jiff states that 55% on average over the season must be Jiff qualified, so if you look at it from that angle there is no problem at all, you have to remember that all clubs play a minimum of 26 Top 14 and 6 Euro games + Internationals for many just one reason why the clubs need masssive squads

As I was careful to state, I got the numbers I quotes from Wikipedia. Where did yours come from? Toulon's own site lists 45 players!

Am I correct in assuming that a Jiff player is similar to an EQP? What exactly qualifies a player as being "Jiff"?

 

[psychic duck]

A lot has to do with Saint- Andre. Now I don't know if he was the guy choosing the squad but he went against players like Trinh-Duc, played Fofana on the wing, and then the style of play was non existent. If you gave most national coaches Parra, Trinh Duc, Nakiataki, Fofana, Fritz, Huget, Dulin and you would see some absolutely beautiful rugby played.

He got the job the season after he finished 8th in the Top 14 with a star studded Toulon side that's played in either a Top 14 or European final every season since then.

 

[gaston le gaff]

As I was careful to state, I got the numbers I quotes from Wikipedia. Where did yours come from? Toulon's own site lists 45 players!

Am I correct in assuming that a Jiff player is similar to an EQP? What exactly qualifies a player as being "Jiff"?

not sure what EQP is but Jiff is either French players (French passport holders), or foreign players who have come through the rugby schools and Academies before they are 21 eg Misha Nariashvila from Montpellier who is Georgian.The ruling states that 55% of the team sheet (23 players) on average throughout the season must be Jiff.it is a lot more complicated than that but thats the bascis of it non compliance will result in fines etc this seaso there are 3 teams who did not obtain the Jiff average so probably they will recieve hefty fines, hope thats clear!!!

 

[goodNumber10]

By the same logic, then Welsh or Scottish players aren't getting enough game time either as they have fewer teams. There's a dozen French fly halves there who will be featuring in the Champions Cup. Scotland only have one team in the tournament, Wales only two. There will be more French players each week playing in 14 teams, than there will be Welsh, Scottish, Italian or Irish in the Pro12.

It's a complete myth it's all that harmful to the French team, as by the same argument the lack of Welsh players playing week in week out is too then. And anyway, competition for shirts is a good thing anyway. Keeps standards up. Would love to have lots of those players in Wales where the overseas restriction too tight. There's little benefit to the Welsh national team in restrictions meaning the Dragons for example play Dorian Jones 10. He's never going to play for Wales, so it makes no difference whatsoever if a foreigner comes in.

completely agree with this.

Ultimately it doesn't matter how many french fly halves are playing it's the Quality of Fly Halves that si important, and frankly if a young french guy is being blocked by an aging SH player he needs to get better simple... can't pu the blame at the coaches feet for wanting to win.

There is little point in comparing what happens in NZ as right for elsewhere, NZ rugby is unlike any other nation it is geared towards one thing it is owned by one company and it's systems are entirely about building a national team.

It could not be implemented anywhere else in the world.

 

[RedruthRFC]

not sure what EQP is but Jiff is either French players (French passport holders), or foreign players who have come through the rugby schools and Academies before they are 21 eg Misha Nariashvila from Montpellier who is Georgian.The ruling states that 55% of the team sheet (23 players) on average throughout the season must be Jiff.it is a lot more complicated than that but thats the bascis of it non compliance will result in fines etc this seaso there are 3 teams who did not obtain the Jiff average so probably they will recieve hefty fines, hope thats clear!!!

Thanks, that makes sense. An EQP is an English Qualified Player (according to World Rugby regulations).

 

[psychic duck]

completely agree with this.

Ultimately it doesn't matter how many french fly halves are playing it's the Quality of Fly Halves that si important, and frankly if a young french guy is being blocked by an aging SH player he needs to get better simple... can't pu the blame at the coaches feet for wanting to win.

There is little point in comparing what happens in NZ as right for elsewhere, NZ rugby is unlike any other nation it is geared towards one thing it is owned by one company and it's systems are entirely about building a national team.

It could not be implemented anywhere else in the world.

This.

 

[goodNumber10]

Stade: Plisson will probably see a reasonable amount of action, but I would say Steyn has now stepped up to take the starting 10 jersey.

how do you figure that, Plisson has been out injured which is why Steyn has been starting.

 

[FrenchFan]

Plisson is ahead of Steyn now. He started 18 games v 10 for Steyn who has struggled to find form all season but found his kicking boots again in the playoffs. Steyn played the Challenge Cup while Plisson was rested. Also Steyn got his time in the league after Plisson got injured. Before that he was on the bench. This is no criticism of Steyn. Just looking at the 2 players record.

FTD (Francois Trin Duc), Lopez, Plisson are the obvious choices for the 10 jersey. Three players offer enough choice and different options. But 3 is way more than the current staff can handle .

After that it's a matter of coaching them into the position and use their different qualities and develop a partnership with their SH (no shortage of quality here either: Parra Machenaud Tillous-Borde Bézy etc)

Then They need game time. Only Lopez got it. They need support from the staff not an ejection seat.

After nearly 4 years of the current management, the end result is:

FTD has been systematically omitted and never got his chance under the current staff.
Lopez has been shafted over petty politics not performance. Didn't even make the 36 training squad.
Plisson was ignored and used as a last minute filler v England after Lopez (was) pulled out (by his club).
Tales who was in the group all the time had a few cameo appearances.

Go figure. All 4 players have lost 4 yrs.

And the 32 degrees in Toulouse today? The foreigners breathing.

 

[TRF_heineken]

completely agree with this.

Ultimately it doesn't matter how many french fly halves are playing it's the Quality of Fly Halves that si important, and frankly if a young french guy is being blocked by an aging SH player he needs to get better simple... can't pu the blame at the coaches feet for wanting to win.

There is little point in comparing what happens in NZ as right for elsewhere, NZ rugby is unlike any other nation it is geared towards one thing it is owned by one company and it's systems are entirely about building a national team.

It could not be implemented anywhere else in the world.

I agree with this. But it's about the exposure at top level which brings the benefit to players.

But

If an ageing SH player is playing in France. That ageing SH player's spot is given to a younger player who deserves to be there back in the SH. That spot isn't in turn given to a NH player as a swop. This means that the SH team's player pool keeps on increasing at top level, while the NH player pool keeps on decreasing.

 

[JJFlash]

I am very much looking forward to seeing how Guy Noves settles into his new job after the World Cup.
I feel optimistic that he will be the catalyst that will bring the XV de France back to where it belongs,
that is to say in the top 4 in the world.
Noves has the experience and the motivational ability to gel his players into a formidable squad.
However, I believe that he stayed a bit too long with Toulouse and had begun to look a bit stale, so it's a pity
he didn't take charge of the French team earlier - I think he had the chance to take it a few years ago and
turned it down.
With regard to the impending World Cup, I don't think anyone expects France to win it, but we were all saying the same four years
ago when Lièvremont was in charge and they came within a whisker of winning!

 

[RedruthRFC]

I agree with this. But it's about the exposure at top level which brings the benefit to players.

But

If an ageing SH player is playing in France. That ageing SH player's spot is given to a younger player who deserves to be there back in the SH. That spot isn't in turn given to a NH player as a swop. This means that the SH team's player pool keeps on increasing at top level, while the NH player pool keeps on decreasing.

Well said. The analogy that comes to mind is cutting back a bush to allow fresh growth to come through - it might look a bit sparse for a while, but will be healthier in the long term. There are obviously situations when SH sides would prefer certain players to be playing on home soil but if the trade off is ensuring a strong conveyor belt of talent coming through, it's not the worst thing in the world.

Going back to the hypothetical fly half who is struggling for game time, I agree that any coach with the resources available to him is totally right to pick the strongest side that he can, but how does said fly half get the game time needed to become a better player? Moving clubs seems like the only option.

 

[gaston le gaff]

In France they have created a loan system for the younger players by no means is it perfect, but it is a start and within a few years they hopefully will make it better and give the younger players the game time they certainly need.

 

[nickdnz]

I quite enjoy my point about fly halves being blocked, with the rebuttal that Wales and Scotland have few pro teams - and they don't struggle for depth in key positions. Here is hoping Biggar goes down for the RWC, I'm dying to see the 'local' talent in the Pro 12 which will jump in.

 

[RedruthRFC]

In France they have created a loan system for the younger players by no means is it perfect, but it is a start and within a few years they hopefully will make it better and give the younger players the game time they certainly need.

Good to hear. In England, England Academy Players can be Dual Registered to a club two levels below their parent club (more in some cases) in order to get game time without too much paperwork being required. This is great - few players are going to transition from youth rugby straight into tier one rugby, particularly tight forwards. However, once players have proved themselves while out on loan, they need an opportunity at the top level if they are ever going to break through; I don't see that such a loan system addresses this. It still seems to me that players moving clubs is the only way to achieve this.

 

[psychic duck]

I quite enjoy my point about fly halves being blocked, with the rebuttal that Wales and Scotland have few pro teams - and they don't struggle for depth in key positions. Here is hoping Biggar goes down for the RWC, I'm dying to see the 'local' talent in the Pro 12 which will jump in.

The point was if France have such a big problem, then by the same logic so do all the Celts who have less players playing in their league each weekend through less teams. Yet nobody (quite rightly) says that only having 4 teams is killing Welsh or Irish rugby at international level.

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I agree with this. But it's about the exposure at top level which brings the benefit to players.

But

If an ageing SH player is playing in France. That ageing SH player's spot is given to a younger player who deserves to be there back in the SH. That spot isn't in turn given to a NH player as a swop. This means that the SH team's player pool keeps on increasing at top level, while the NH player pool keeps on decreasing.

That assumes that the younger player is as good or better than the departing player. Which isn't always the case, and competition with that experienced player is usually a good thing. There's no way Super Rugby won't be at all effected by losing so many top players.