Heineken Cup Quarter Final: Munster v Ulster - 08/04/2012

[Feicarsinn]

Maybe this is being overly dramatic but I think this result emphasises the power shift in Irish rugby which has been brewing for two years. Munster are now the third strongest team behind Leinster and Ulster.

Great result for Ulster. Their starting XV is as strong as any other in the competition with one exception- their flyhalf. Luckily for them, Ruan Pienaar and Paddy Wallace pick up a lot of slack in terms of game management so a poor Ian Humphreys performance is often minimized in terms of negative impact on their team.

No, you're right. I thought after about 20 minutes that we were witnessing something of a changing of the guard. It's been on the cards for quite a while too.

Ulster have a lovely crop of players at the moment. Best, Henry, Ferris and Tuohy are all very good players in the pack and to supplement them with the likes of Afoa, Wannenberg and Muller is a recipe for success. Their backs are pretty talented too. Gilroy, Pienaar, Cave and Trimble are all of international quality. When they bring Bowe back they'll be brilliant. Munster simply don't have the players to compete with them at the moment.

In saying that, Munster will come again. While they're in a state of transition at the moment, the likes of Zebo, O'Donnell, O'Marhony and Sherry will come good eventually, but it'll take time.

 

[munstermuffin]

Snoop I agree and will say people will blame McGahan and they'll be wrong. Ulster and Leinster have been smart and we let standards slip by:
- Awful recruitment
- Lack of a backs coach
- Our scrum going to mush before we addressed that
- My own personal belief that we don't train collectively daily
A base in Cork and Limerick is wrong
- Dare I say lack of leadership on pitch as in as bad as Poite was and anyone who blames McGahan neither can be blamed for poor discipline silly missed tackles and bad hands.

McGahan took a punt on form and I thought Sherry had superb game and TOD didnt let us down either. It's the structure here that wrong and we are 2/3 years behind Ulster and Leinster

As in McGahans times -
Jones, Zebo, Murray, O'Donnell, O'Mahony, Ryan, Sherry were all brought through.
That half a team.

 

[Peat]

The ever (un)reliable espn stats - look at that tackle count! http://www.espnscrum.com/heineken-cup-2011-12/rugby/match/144344.html

If I were to single out two men, it'd be Court and Wallace, both attract a lot of stick in green jersies (not neccesarily from here) - and maybe rightly so - but they are incredibly vital for us at this level as can be seen from those stats, and I do sometimes wonder if the best is being got out of them at Ireland. Although that's something for another topic.

Have to say, this is a seismic result, but not sure where everything will settle. I'd be very wary of saying Ulster are definitley province number 2 - I think we're going to have to repeat that in a few weeks' time if we want to reach the Rabble Pro semi-final and I can't see us doing it. Rode our luck a lot at times, it was a fantastic defensive performance but we did get put under the cosh for about 60 straight minutes which is not a demonstration of superiority. It's not like you can say this Munster side is going downhill either, they have all but replaced their old guard by now (albeit some with NIQ plasters). Next challenge is to beat Edinburgh, just as big in its way but very different - and that's all there is to it, there's a few more victories to come before dominance can be asserted.

 

[Feicarsinn]

As in McGahans times -
Jones, Zebo, Murray, O'Donnell, O'Mahony, Ryan, Sherry were all brought through.
That half a team.

True, but aside from Ryan, they're all kids. (Well Jones is 25, but being constantly broken has impeded his development somewhat.) While they will eventually come good, they're about 2 or 3 years away from challenging the top teams in my opinion.

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

It's not like you can say this Munster side is going downhill either, they have all but replaced their old guard by now (albeit some with NIQ plasters).

That's true in most positions but with two glaring exceptions. BJ Botha is invaluable at tighthead since his replacement, Stephen Archer, is barely a pub player standard. Also although Ronan O'Gara's performance level has dropped from where it was 3 or 4 years ago, he's still far and away Munster's best 10. Should he be out for a significant period of time (or retire), I don't fancy Munster's chances with Ian Keatley, Scott Deasy or Declan Cusack directing play.

 

[Peat]

Just to add more SoC gibberish -

Fez was awesome until he ran out of steam, then he hang on somehow and did his bit, but there were any number of players that could have that MotM instead.

iHumph continues to make the case of Jackson/Olding/McKinney/Marshall (either) while making his own, we'll let him off today

Gotta feel for the boys on the bench - surprised he didn't send on Spence to see out the last of the siege at least.

I should probably start looking up flights to Dublin now...

That's true in most positions but with two glaring exceptions. BJ Botha is invaluable at tighthead since his replacement, Stephen Archer, is barely a pub player standard. Also although Ronan O'Gara's performance level has dropped from where it was 3 or 4 years ago, he's still far and away Munster's best 10. Should he be out for a significant period of time (or retire), I don't fancy Munster's chances with Ian Keatley, Scott Deasy or Declan Cusack directing play.

True and true (also, they've got some fine young locks, but only Ryan's stepped up, and no one's really replacing O'Connell) - they've got a bit of time to work on the O'Gara thing, and I expect them to either put Hanrahan there or go a-poaching north or east. Botha's a bit more urgent, wouldn't be entirely surprised to see John Andress end up in Munster in the non too distant future as I think the new restrictions will force them to do without a NIQ tighthead.

 

[Groundhog]

Snoop I agree and will say people will blame McGahan and they'll be wrong. Ulster and Leinster have been smart and we let standards slip by:
- Awful recruitment
- Lack of a backs coach
- Our scrum going to mush before we addressed that
- My own personal belief that we don't train collectively daily
A base in Cork and Limerick is wrong
- Dare I say lack of leadership on pitch as in as bad as Poite was and anyone who blames McGahan neither can be blamed for poor discipline silly missed tackles and bad hands.

McGahan took a punt on form and I thought Sherry had superb game and TOD didnt let us down either. It's the structure here that wrong and we are 2/3 years behind Ulster and Leinster

Yeah I felt the same. Munster were suffering from headless chicken syndrome for much of that match and no-one took charge

 

[Feicarsinn]

Yeah I felt the same. Munster were suffering from headless chicken syndrome for much of that match and no-one took charge

Most notably when they were 16 points down. How long were they camped in the Ulster 22 and yet they came away with nothing because they didn't kick the points? When you consider how close it was at the end, it was scandalous. Very much reminiscent of the Ireland Wales match in the world cup in that respect.

 

[munstermuffin]

Just watched some of Poites decisions and they were desperate.
As for us we had chances but look as bad as we were in parts of that game Ulster stood strong and well again fair play to them they got a very good away win and earned their semifinal spot.

 

[Gavin]

All I can say is Brian McLaughlin must be coach of Ireland at some point. Perhaps after Kidney if the IRFU feel like it.

 

[profitius]

Well done Ulster. They have the classier backline and that was the difference as well as their defense.

It could be a good result for Munster in the long run. Things have gone downhill under McGahan. Hes been a bit of a disaster. One or two good victories over the years have just papered over the cracks. The backs coach also needs to go.

You'd have to feel sorry for the Munster pack. Winning so much possession only to see it wasted.

Zebo has a long way to go to live up to the hype hes getting. Gilroy was miles better today. Felix Jones is another error prone player but to be fair to him hes not long back from injury. Besides his kicking ROG has done nothing this season either. All hes doing lately is kicking the ball away and is a liability. Time for Hanrahan or Keatley to step up.

There are positives. Theres good players coming through for the new coach to choose.

 

[Feicarsinn]

Munster don't have a back coach. And I wouldn't feel too sorry for the Munster forwards, they had lots of ball, but they were often driven backwards when they took the ball on, and the ball they supplied the backs was pretty scrappy.

 

[psychic duck]

I really hope Kidney doesn't have his contract renewed when it expires in 2013

it's sad to an Ireland team underachieving like they are right now, some of that sublime Leinster play is hardly ever seen in a green shirt

I think this Ireland squad has the potential to be even better than the last decade's generation, all they need is a new coach who can select a team based more on form, a proper openside (not O'Brien), a good replacement for BOD (plenty of candidates), and Murray to improve his speed of service vastly or to be dropped for Reddan or Marshall, and bring whatever makes Sexton tick for Leinster into the Ireland setup

 

[Feicarsinn]

In fairness, O'Brien had another good outing at 7 on the weekend, but I get what you're at.

 

[Peat]

In fairness, O'Brien had another good outing at 7 on the weekend, but I get what you're at.

Problem is, who? I'd say the next best Irish 7 at the moment is Henry or Wallace, both of whom are about as much as 7s as O'Brien - not quite the orthodox beast, and picked as much for their carrying as their work at the breakdown. After the two named, you have a collection of players who are variously too small (Jennings, Faloon), too weak (Ronan), too blindsidey/raw (O'Mahony, Ryan) or too crippled (O'Connor).

O'Brien at 7 is not a major part of the problem in my eyes, and even if it was, there's not a whole to be done, unless Henry's a bit better than even I thought - and I rate him pretty high. He should be involved. I'd consider having his man babies if he asked. But top rate international openside? Hmm...

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

There are positives. Theres good players coming through for the new coach to choose.

Because of the work Tony McGahan has put in after being left nothing to work with bar an ageing 1st XV by Declan Kidney.

 

[Feicarsinn]

Because of the work Tony McGahan has put in after being left nothing to work with bar an ageing 1st XV by Declan Kidney.

You could argue that any coach would have done that because they had no other option available to them.

 

[munstermuffin]

Because of the work Tony McGahan has put in after being left nothing to work with bar an ageing 1st XV by Declan Kidney.

Agreed Snoop and well I know people will slate Tony McGahan but reality is:
When he arrived we were at top and well there only one way you can go when at top.
I've been lucky to see up close and in person the changes due to my job and well alot has changed for better through Tony.
Lets remember (and this isn't a dig at DK) Deccie didn't want academy yet Tony took over and transformed structure and was driving force behind academy.
We have improved our skills massively.
And as noted already we have brought alot through under Tony.

Munster's problem lie alot higher.

Recruitment:
For instance we get Borlase, Leinster get Strauss. We get Botha from Ulster (who has been superb) but they replace him with Afoa.
As in recruitment (which is above Tony McG's head) need to be made answer a case.
As in lets have a loot at it 1 bad buy ok, 2 well unluck, 3 maybe stabdards are slipping but hell
Save Tokula, Peter Borlase, Will Chambers (was okish), Jeremy Manning, Sam Tuitupou, Nick Williams and few others.

We need to stop the crap and buy smart. People say this is a business now and a cut throat environment so if that the case be ruthless and try be smart. Connacht arent great so look at their squad and try poach a few. Ronan Loughney is a great prospect I think. And Muldoon possibly could do well at 8.
Then be smart and really study before buyoing NIQ project players.

Also stop politics being a factor. eg. Young Munster destroyed a Cor Con front row regularly over past few years. This despite Con front row all have Munster contracts of some type.
We need to use AIL for scouting and hardening some lads up. The academy can do great jobs on skills but these lads need some dogged games like AIL derbies etc to harden up to.

Next Point Coaching:
We need to wake up get a proper structure and everyone know their job. Get a backs coach in and assign everyone their roles then it'll be easy identify problem
eg. If scrum is poor Paul McCarthy is at fault if rucks are bad it Foley (forwards coach)

Finances:
We need to stop minding pockets and spend big because we'll only get out of it what we put in and this is really the crossroads now with a new coach coming in

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

You could argue that any coach would have done that because they had no other option available to them.

Any coach wouldn't have won two league ***les, qualified for two B&I Cup finals, made the knockout stages of the Heineken Cup three times in four seasons and made the Amlin Cup semi final while doing a wholesale rebuild of his squad.

Would Guy Noves get the same stick as Tony McGahan has received over the same period that each coach has been in charge of their team? Since 2008, despite enormous finances and the ability to recruit anyone they want in world rugby, Noves has guided Toulouse to just as many league ***les and one more Heineken Cup than McGahan has. Some sections of the Munster public have had unrealistic expectations of what McGahan could achieve with a team that has been over the hill since the 2008/09 season. Only a freakishly good Leinster performance in the HCup semi final that year prevented Munster from (deservedly) winning that tournament back to back.

 

[Amiga500]

John Afoa has been cited for a tackle on Felix Jones at around the 46 min mark.

I was at the game and seen nothing untoward - but that is not to say it didn't happen (especially given the state of me!).


Anyone notice it and how bad was it?