Irish accused of aiding All Black defections

[Shaggy]

Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't want to see players represent 2 national teams. I just think the PI's have lost a fair amount of potential assets to their game who aren't regular starters for the All Blacks.

That's true, but it's the risk anyone takes when they choose to play for any nation

 

[nickdnz]

Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't want to see players represent 2 national teams. I just think the PI's have lost a fair amount of potential assets to their game who aren't regular starters for the All Blacks.

Not really. Because you are eligable for a team, it doesn't mean you are being taken from it, does it? Almost every New Zealand rugby player, was either born, has a parent or a grandparent who was born in another country. Has Scott Waldrom been disadvantaged by having his one All Black game, as apposed to playing for England? Fact of the matter is, you play for the country you want to play for, and if you play one minute of rugby as an All Black, it's still a minute more than four other New Zealanders.

I can kind of see your point in terms of distribution of international talent, however there is no unfairness about it.

 

[TRF_Ezequiel]

I guess it's drawn from a certain sympathy for the PI's people have. It's amazing to see the underdog snatch a win. If Samoa, Fiji and Tonga have a better chance with players like Sivivatu and Rocokoco for instance, I think that appeals to people as being fair when in fact there is nothing unfair about them playing for the All Blacks.

 

[TRF C A Iversen]

I guess it's drawn from a certain sympathy for the PI's people have. It's amazing to see the underdog snatch a win. If Samoa, Fiji and Tonga have a better chance with players like Sivivatu and Rocokoco for instance, I think that appeals to people as being fair when in fact there is nothing unfair about them playing for the All Blacks.

It would be great to see them play for Fiji, but unfortunately they both chose to play all their representative rugby in New Zealand. Rokocoko was here as a child and see's himself more as a fijian New Zealander, than a Fijian living in New Zealand. The NZRFU has had zero to do with bringing them to New Zealand or making them play rugby here until they came through the grades here.

All that aside, as markshaw said New Zealand and Australia wanted to help these island nations out by allowing exactly what you spoke about, a stand-down and then eligibility to play for the country of either your birth or your parents birth, that sort of thing.

It was voted against by most northern hemisphere nations at an IRB meeting. New Zealand villains again, lol. :lol:

 

[TRF_Cymro]

FFS we are not having this debate again.

You make your bed as soon as you select a country to represent. Tough crap if you only get one cap.

 

[Teh Mite]

Who mentioned a test nations transfer market?

 

[TRF_Ezequiel]

FFS we are not having this debate again.

You make your bed as soon as you select a country to represent. Tough crap if you only get one cap.

My thoughts exactly. Be responsible for your own actions. I just wish some players would have picked a different option at the time

 

[Logorrhea]

:lol: Slavery, quite a long bow you draw there ... maybe bring back colonialism and exploitation of natural resources while you are at it

Exactly, it may not be pretty but it would sort out the issue once and for all. Then again the English have a **** lot more experience with that so me thinks they would manage to ruin it for everyone.

I'm not advocating player protection, merely some financial recompense for all of the coaching, academies etc, to be filtered back in to train the next player up to the same standard.

Yeah, as someone has already mentioned the transfer fee only applies for mid-contract transfers, though there are fees to be paid to the club that developed the player when a he moves and is under the age of 21 (I think its 21). It could be applied by the IRB (fees set by an arbitration panel) but most of the talent that comes up to Europe is well over 21 years old so it probably wouldnt make much of a difference. Still, could be worth looking at it.

You are right that we currently have no legal right to compensation, but this could easily be remedied by incorporating a payout for service owing clause, as Smart Cooky suggests, or the IRB introducing transfer fees.

Cookies suggestion could well work but its a two way committment. If I read it right, he is looking to get players to sign incentive based contracts where the initial sign up would be over 3-4 years (Club level), and that contract would automatically extend based on progression to Super 15 and again at International.I just cant see it standing up legally. Somwhere along the lines, these players are going to have to be given a choice, and they will follow the money, especially when its 3-4 times what they are currently earning.

I not sure it would work is all.

Was Andrew Mehrtens stolen by the ABs? he was born in SA, but you never hear a word about that. You know why? cos he is white.

Brilliant stuff. If your going to rant, do it properly like this man here.

I fear that you are making a mistake I've often made, bothering to discuss something with him.

Unbelievable stuff. It was over a year ago and your still crying because I didnt agree with you? Take your ball and go home.

 

[munstermuffin]

Lads even th Japanese are clearing ye out at this stage

 

[TRF C A Iversen]

Unbelievable stuff. It was over a year ago and your still crying because I didnt agree with you? Take your ball and go home.

Yawn, the stereotypical "your crying" bit. Hardly, just don't see the point in wasting much of my time. Take my ball and go home? :lol: Man you put me in my place there, lol.

 

[lucky number 7]

Anybody ever wonder why people argue so much on the internet ...most of us all would probably get along great in person and enjoy a few pints at a game ...however put a computer screen in front of us and its all like .....

 

[Logorrhea]

Of which, the greatest become;

Awaits a troll reference from the grewsome twosome

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Of which, the greatest become;

Awaits a troll reference from the grewsome twosome

You done hurted my feelings

 

[TRF_Cymro]

Henry slams money chasers

@Logorreha:

 

[Shaggy]

Yeah, as someone has already mentioned the transfer fee only applies for mid-contract transfers, though there are fees to be paid to the club that developed the player when a he moves and is under the age of 21 (I think its 21). It could be applied by the IRB (fees set by an arbitration panel) but most of the talent that comes up to Europe is well over 21 years old so it probably wouldnt make much of a difference. Still, could be worth looking at it.

Yes, I admit I made a mistake, a transfer fee would not help in the case of Afoa or Payne because they are coming off contract.

Cookies suggestion could well work but its a two way committment. If I read it right, he is looking to get players to sign incentive based contracts where the initial sign up would be over 3-4 years (Club level), and that contract would automatically extend based on progression to Super 15 and again at International.I just cant see it standing up legally. Somwhere along the lines, these players are going to have to be given a choice, and they will follow the money, especially when its 3-4 times what they are currently earning.

I not sure it would work is all.

Can't see a problem with it being legal, i'm guessing that they probably sign a contract when they start to play ITM, then again when they play Super rugby etc - you use to get a similar thing happen in the NZ public service, where they would pay some of the university students while they were studying in return for a year service for every year they were paid. The student could break the contract, and go and work in the private sector before their service was up, but they had to pay a penalty - often the private sector employer would pay this as part of the recruitment.

... I guess it's effectively contracting players for longer (like you suggested earlier), but still giving the players a buy out option to their contract if they decide to use it.

 

[smartcooky]

Tony Johnson hit the nail squarely on the head on Tuesday night with his closing comments on ReUnion....

 

[lucky number 7]

Tony Johnson hit the nail squarely on the head on Tuesday night with his closing comments on ReUnion....

Don't see how munster having Howlett and Leinster Having Strauss and Hines makes the Irish side any weaker...

 

[TRF_Ezequiel]

This guy is spot on almost every week. I love watching this show. I just wish they would go into the South African teams in detail a bit more but since it's a New Zealand show, it won't happen.

 

[TRF_Cymro]

His last sentence is correct. NZ loss is also NZ gain because they have the players ready to replace the outgoing ones, (bar Carter of course ) :lol:

 

[TRF C A Iversen]

Don't see how munster having Howlett and Leinster Having Strauss and Hines makes the Irish side any weaker...

In this particular instance it just means that a talented young Irish player will not have that huge amount of time and money spent on developing him, it'll be given to a New Zealand player. If less opportunities are given in the UK and Ireland to young players from that part of the world, then the local talent in that part of the world will just have one less chance to come through.

I suppose the answer back is that having players from the better Southern Hemipshere unions will help toughen up the local players they are playing against, but I don't buy that. When your in a team that has spent all it's major money on talent from New Zealand, Australia or South Africa, it doesn't leave much for the local players, less incentive for them. It also would be a little psychologically damaging as the symbolism of the cash paid out to Southern Hemisphere players automatically makes them feel like second class citizens and defer on-field decisions, runs and passes to them.


I personally haven't seen it do any good for the Northern Hemisphere unions, it's a little like what happens to the England in the Premier League in one respect. Who knows how good England would be for example if they pretty much only had English players in it. The style of their national game would take up a character of it's own, not just a worldwide melting pot of already developed talent where local juniors become fewer and harder to invest confidence in.