June International Tests: South Africa vs. France (1st Test) (10/06/2017)

[SomeOke]

I'd be going with a back row of 6. Kriel 7. Kolisi 8. Vermeulen

Well Whitley is the Captain now so for better or worse we are stuck with him. If we win games I'm all for it, at least he gives it his all, despite not being a "special" player.

Kriel and Kolisi would be my choice of flanks as well but I could certainly live with JldP and Kriel.

 

[mdaclarke]

I thought the springboks played well. For all those saying this was a France team with lots of injuries, the springboks have their fair share of injuries too.

 

[TRF_heineken]

In Afrikaans we have a saying "Een mielie maak nie 'n oes nie" translated to english: "One corn doesn't make a harvest".

There was certainly a sign of improvement from last year, we certainly seem to have a better gameplan than last year. But I will remain reserved for the time being and see how we progress as each game is played.

This coming weekend is going to be a different ball game with the rest of the French team joining the fray. They'll even have their captain back who is also a much better line-out thrower, and was it not for Etzebeth stealing 2 balls on the 5m line, this match could have been closer on the scoreboard than it was.

Overall I'm happy with the performances. Thought the debutants did well for their first run, especially Cronje and Coetzee. Coetzee was just brilliant at fullback and his positioning was spot on.

The stand out performers for me was Malcolm Marx, Eben Etzebeth, Ross Cronje, Jesse Kriel and Andries Coetzee. Elton was great with goal kicking, but seemed a bit undecided at times with ball in hand, and his tactical kicking was terrible.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

I'm also holding out to see how we go against France in the rest of the series and then the RC before I'm going to get overly excited though our intent to play rugby is a breath of fresh air. Both teams have a lot of room for improvement and tries were left unscored for both sides which is a worry.

Marx was Marx; a beast in general play but the line-outs still need work. I still feel Kitshoff should start at LH with Thomas du Toit on the bench. Mtawarira does not fit a more dynamic approach any more and isn't even the better scrummager. I suppose AC was desperate for caps. At TH I am still waiting for Wilco Louw. I expect he'll make his mark for the SA 'A' side.

Etzebeth was immense. It was Mostert that lead in Selin for his try- the commentator had it wrong. So not a blotch to his game. Mostert went well enough and I prefer him ahead of De Jager ATM but PSdT is still my long term #5 but I am happy for him to play off the bench for now as he is just slightly off his best.

Kolisi for me was the standout in the backrow and Whiteley was Whiteley but I was underwhelmed with Mohoje TBH. Think JL du Preez showed off the bench that he should have been in the Bok squad to start off with. I am happy enough to go sans Vermeulen if Du Preez is in the mix though my choice backrow would still be Coetzee/Kriel(while Coetzee is unavailable), JL du Preez, Vermeulen with Kriel/Kolisi on the bench. The question is whether Whiteley will be our long term captain. If so we should shape the backrow around that which to me means Mohoje drops out of the equation to accomodate one of Kolisi or JL du Preez and we get in an actual breakdown specialist in either Coetzee, Kriel, Louw or Kwagga.

Its difficult to say too much on the backline; the wings hardly saw any ball and I suspect the space for France out wide was due to our 'defensive pattern' rather than the individual players as it was a theme throughout and on both our wings. It'll be interesting also to see if the selections in the backline change when the likes of Combrinck, Rohan Janse van Rensburg, Lambie, Pollard etc are all available. I liked Hougaard in this setup.

Overall I think this game was a lot closer than the scoreline seems to suggest. That penalty try though I agree with it might not get give in a RWC final and then probably also not the two tries while Dulin was off the pitch. It was all France thereafter though we defended well enough you will concede a try against better opposition being camped for 15 minutes on your try line.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Marx was Marx; a beast in general play but the line-outs still need work. I still feel Kitshoff should start at LH with Thomas du Toit on the bench. Mtawarira does not fit a more dynamic approach any more and isn't even the better scrummager. I suppose AC was desperate for caps. At TH I am still waiting for Wilco Louw. I expect he'll make his mark for the SA 'A' side.

Etzebeth was immense. It was Mostert that lead in Selin for his try- the commentator had it wrong. So not a blotch to his game. Mostert went well enough and I prefer him ahead of De Jager ATM but PSdT is still my long term #5 but I am happy for him to play off the bench for now as he is just slightly off his best.

Agreed. Marx, still needs to work on his lineouts, but to be honest he was a lot better than last year. Cronje's try from the lineout was perfectly thrown by Marx.

Kolisi for me was the standout in the backrow and Whiteley was Whiteley but I was underwhelmed with Mohoje TBH. Think JL du Preez showed off the bench that he should have been in the Bok squad to start off with. I am happy enough to go sans Vermeulen if Du Preez is in the mix though my choice backrow would still be Coetzee/Kriel(while Coetzee is unavailable), JL du Preez, Vermeulen with Kriel/Kolisi on the bench. The question is whether Whiteley will be our long term captain. If so we should shape the backrow around that which to me means Mohoje drops out of the equation to accomodate one of Kolisi or JL du Preez and we get in an actual breakdown specialist in either Coetzee, Kriel, Louw or Kwagga.

Really? I had Mohoje as my top backrower. He got us over the advantage line a couple of times, and made a lot of tackles. Kolisi, in the fetcher role, didn't do his job properly, He had that one good steal, but that was about it. Thought Mohoje did what a blindside flanker was supposed to do...

Its difficult to say too much on the backline; the wings hardly saw any ball and I suspect the space for France out wide was due to our 'defensive pattern' rather than the individual players as it was a theme throughout and on both our wings. It'll be interesting also to see if the selections in the backline change when the likes of Combrinck, Rohan Janse van Rensburg, Lambie, Pollard etc are all available. I liked Hougaard in this setup.

Yup. Pollard had his first game this past weekend for the Blue Bulls after returning from injury. Maybe he could even be drafted into the SA "A" team for next week??

Overall I think this game was a lot closer than the scoreline seems to suggest. That penalty try though I agree with it might not get give in a RWC final and then probably also not the two tries while Dulin was off the pitch. It was all France thereafter though we defended well enough you will concede a try against better opposition being camped for 15 minutes on your try line.

True, but with that said, it shows that our defensive structures are better than last year. To keep on defending like that in the end, shows that our discipline has improved.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Really? I had Mohoje as my top backrower. He got us over the advantage line a couple of times, and made a lot of tackles. Kolisi, in the fetcher role, didn't do his job properly, He had that one good steal, but that was about it. Thought Mohoje did what a blindside flanker was supposed to do...

Absolutely. Kolisi might have not handled his run and pass to Cronje all that well but at least he was in that position and was the busier of the two. I fully agree Kolisi is no fetcher. What I am arguing is that blindside should be him or JL du Preez with Mohoje totally out of the picture and Kriel, Coetzee, Louw or even Smith or Cloete at open-side.

Kolisi made 12 tackles to Mohoje's 7 and ran 56m off 6 runs against Mohoje's 19m off 8 runs. Kolisi also beat two more defenders and made an offload while Mohoje spilled a ball looking for an off load. Kolisi is also Stormers captain and more experienced which should add weight to his selection in a team where caps are scarce.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Absolutely. Kolisi might have not handled his run and pass to Cronje all that well but at least he was in that position and was the busier of the two. I fully agree Kolisi is no fetcher. What I am arguing is that blindside should be him or JL du Preez with Mohoje totally out of the picture and Kriel, Coetzee, Louw or even Smith or Cloete at open-side.

Kolisi made 12 tackles to Mohoje's 7 and ran 56m off 6 runs against Mohoje's 19m off 8 runs. Kolisi also beat two more defenders and made an offload while Mohoje spilled a ball looking for an off load. Kolisi is also Stormers captain and more experienced which should add weight to his selection in a team where caps are scarce.

Geez, those stats are painting a different picture than what I saw on Saturday, but okay. My apologies.

If it was up to me I'd play Du Preez and Kriel along with Whiteley.

 

[George Ford]

The first half showed promise and optimism that the game will break open and was actually there for both teams to be had. The French had the better share of the ball possession in the 2nd half, but their phase building frustrated them more it seemed due to a (combination of) lack of creativity and a much improved Bok defense. They did seem to have a better shot when going wide. The penalty try was a gamechanger though, mentally, but I'd say the Boks deserved that score. For instead of always trying to go through middle and build phases (as the French did), the Boks attacked the space (grubber, lob or chip) in behind the defense. Although admittedly they only got their execution right 50% of the time.

It would be premature to judge any of the players on the back of this 1st performance, but I would still tweak our starting XV. It needs to be noted that for long parts of the 1st half, Mohoje & Whiteley swapped roles at side/back of the scrum. As Nick noted briefly half time he thought the reason for this Mohoje being the more bulkier of the 2 would opt to pick up and drive on the 1st phase, thus freeing up Whiteley in his preferred linking role. Now I'd personally prefer the likes of Kriel ahead of Oupa in the starting loosetrio, but I don't think either of the other loosies would fit that option better right now (absence of Vermeulen noted). HOWEVER- JL Du Preez looked like the incredible Hulk when he came on draped in green for the 1st time and his impact was immense. The management of the kid is very important going forward.

Our backs looked expectedly threatening on attack, but are still lacking on defence. Jesse Kriel is a potent runner/finisher and I still can't believe that questions remains unanswered for his tackling abilities. Same goes for Rhule. Your weight is only a real disadvantage if you're a Cheslin Kolbe (but even he can do a better job if needed). With Kriel almost certainly out, I hope DDA recovers in time for the 2nd test. Otherwise Francois Venter should be drafted in from wherever he is. Frans Steyn made a considerable impact off the bench, but I still wouldn't start him as all of the centres are in much better shape than him.

Lastly, I noted some criticism of Whiteley's abilities in the earlier comments. He is NOT your traditional 8, but is a definite leader of men.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Geez, those stats are painting a different picture than what I saw on Saturday, but okay. My apologies.

If it was up to me I'd play Du Preez and Kriel along with Whiteley.

Me too but we do have to maintain our quotas (we aren't even at the 2019 requirement yet) and I'd rather drop Mtawarira; I think Kitshoff and Du Toit just add so much more.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Me too but we do have to maintain our quotas (we aren't even at the 2019 requirement yet) and I'd rather drop Mtawarira; I think Kitshoff and Du Toit just add so much more.

Well, the other option is Gqoboka. He would have had a roaring time on his home ground. It seemed like we were smashing them at scrum time, even with all the talks of Atonio going to drive us into extinction.

I'm curious to see how Coetzee will go about the whole quota issue, now that we have a new sports minister that seems to be more lenient than Mbalula.

 

[unrated]

I was happy with the performance and most of my feelings is the same as you guys said above. I feel J L du Preez was good with the time that he was afforded and even though I feel he should be starting I know as a result of quotas when available Mohoje and Kolisi will start even when Marcell Coetzee, F Louw, Vermeulen, and Kriel is fit. Not that I don't like Mohoje I sincerely believe he is a great guy but just don't feel that he is our best player in his position. Actually not even in the top 4. But we won so we should probably be happy.

Andries Coetzee was great and the distribution of Jantjies impressed me. I hope now that Kriel is injured that Francois Steyn will start. I don't know why you guys don't like him . I think his haters also don't know why they don't like him. Give him a chance and he will show why he should start.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

In all honesty my personal preferences are way out ITO quotas;

1 Kitshoff/Du Toit > Mtawaria
6 Kriel/Coetzee/Louw > Kolisi (though I think Kolisi's all rounder back rower would be perfect for the bench ad he should be able to make good impact off the bench)
7 JL du Preez > Mohoje
14 Combrinck > Rhule

The thing is that those players won't let you down or rather the margins are very small but against the top teams (which I hope we can mix with again soon) you want that extra 5% advantage.

I have a number of white players I also want to see swap out but that'd be for other white players bar one so don't come into the quota discussion.

 

[SomeOke]

It's completely unfair to compare Siya to other 6's, he's not a six, he's a ball carrying, linking loose forward he's never been or claimed to have been a fetcher.

For me it's between Kolisi and JldP for the 7 jersey, with Mahoje a distant third. 6 Should really be Kriel or Cloete or K Smit,h but I suppose we're still pretending you don't need a fetcher in your back row.

There are two reasons I dislike Francois Steyn - firstly he has a bad attitude and a huge ego.
Second and more importantly he represents a regression in style for the Bokke, a throwback to the glory days of 2007 when we relied on his massive boot. I think he's an average carrier and distributor with very little pace who is basically in the side for a large boot. I'm a firm believer that if we don't move away from the glory days of Jake White ball we are going to get left behind on the international stage.

 

[unrated]

I have a number of white players I also want to see swap out but that'd be for other white players bar one so don't come into the quota discussion.

Such as Cronje for Hougaard and Reianch?
Janse van rensburg and Francois Venter coming in?

 

[SomeOke]

I'm actually pretty OK with our "quota" players, the only obvious quota for me is Mahoje, but some people disagree with that as well. Siya doesn't get enough credit for the fantastic season he's had, his stats are up there or better with the best sevens in SR (Todd/Cane/Savea) and he's seldom disappointed in green and gold. JldP is an absolute beast, who has all the attributes to be a mighty Springbok great. No reason to rush him in though he's still barely out of u20's.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

It's completely unfair to compare Siya to other 6's, he's not a six, he's a ball carrying, linking loose forward he's never been or claimed to have been a fetcher.

For me it's between Kolisi and JldP for the 7 jersey, with Mahoje a distant third. 6 Should really be Kriel or Cloete or K Smit,h but I suppose we're still pretending you don't need a fetcher in your back row.

There are two reasons I dislike Francois Steyn - firstly he has a bad attitude and a huge ego.
Second and more importantly he represents a regression in style for the Bokke, a throwback to the glory days of 2007 when we relied on his massive boot. I think he's an average carrier and distributor with very little pace who is basically in the side for a large boot. I'm a firm believer that if we don't move away from the glory days of Jake White ball we are going to get left behind on the international stage.

Exactly my stance. Kolisi would be a fair shout for blindside and optimal for the bench. I might be tempted to go JL du Preez but the lad is still green while Kolisi has been around and has had his dip in form already. Let Du Preez earn his stripes I say and lets not rush greenhorns into the starting XV unless we have to. Kolisi has it covered.

the question is rather will AC pick a fetcher. At the Stormers we've had Schalk Burger and Kolisi... not specialists at all. In al honesty I think our hookers have been more instrumental at the breakdown than our flankers have been under AC (and now Fleck). We let Chris Cloete go FFS. An actual 'fetcher' and the only one on our books. Just look how that lad has performed for the Kings of all teams. Maybe its just now and AC has long terms plans of including an out-and-out fetcher. I mean Jaco Kriel isn't 100% (supposedly), Marcel Coetzee is 2 cas short of the 30 mark so ineligible for the Bokke (I wonder whether he might be given 2 games pasella when we tour up North to get him into the frame?) and Kwagga Smith.. well, unfortunately despite his back to back MotM performances while Kriel was out injured for the Lions I expect he is too light for AC. Pity. I don't know what the deal is with F Louw.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Such as Cronje for Hougaard and Reianch?
Janse van rensburg and Francois Venter coming in?

I am happy enough with Cronje if he can keep it up. He looked assured in his debut. I like how Hougaard also looks like he was allowed to play his own game. My bias says Duvenhage should be in with a shout but I will be happy enough with Cronje. I havn't seen all that much of Reinach recently TBH. Ross Cronje IMO is well worth it and I fully appreciate why he has pushed De Klerk to 2nd choice at the Lions. These guys all will do just fine if our coaches don't expect them to be Fourie du Preez and let them play to their own strengths.

I have a bit of a man-crush on RjvR, yes. Those thighs! Thinking of him at 12, yes. Maybe with Serfontein shifting to 13- I don't trust Jesse Kriel on defense at 13. I am not a fan of Frans Steyn. Like Someoke said, big ego and bad attitude. That and he is too slow and prone to indiscipline on defense. Damian de Allende needs to get a run in of more than 2 games and find form before he enters the equation again. I also have a lot of time for all of Esterhuizen, Mapoe, EW Viljoen, Vorster, Venter and Am. Its like putting me in front of the craft beer fridges at Zetlers. I can't decide so IMO it should probably be incumbants to have first go. I do see RjvR as an encumbant though LOL.

I was thinking more Wilco Louw at 3 ahead of Malherbe or at least on the bench where it would be Coenie. At center I would drop Jesse Kriel when we have R JvR available. Then I prefer PSdT slightly ahead of Mostert long term but for now its fine to start him off the bench. I really do want to see Louw and Janse van Rensburg in the mix though.

I also want to see Jantjies under a bit more pressure and away from altitude. He had a very good game everything considered. I just don't know that I trust that yet. We don't have other options though; Goosen, Pollard and Lambie seem to be made from glass.

 

[SomeOke]

Agree with most points, RjvR and Combrink must walk into the team, we lack game breakers at the moment and they are game breakers.

I wouldn't drop Kriel for RJVR though, that implies he should play 13, our centre pairing is an interesting one and I'm not 100% sure what it should be, it's tempting to just say Rohan and Lionel and call it a day (and that's probably our best option for now) but Lionel is getting on in years and probably isn't the long term solution.

I actually really like Kriel, he's just a deadly runner, strong, fast, and an eye for the gap. It would be a real shame if we lose this 23 year old from the Bok set-up but he does have some issues in the number 13 channel on defense. He needs to be taught the intricacies of defending at 13 which is one of the hardest positions to defend at. It seems like the public has turned agaisnt him a bit which is a shame, I really think he's a prodigy.

Serfontein on the other hand for me needs to evolve a bit maybe develop one extra thing about his game that makes him special, whether than be a distributing game or line-running or bashing. In junior level he just ran over people but he hasn't quite managed to replicate that at higher levels.

De Allenbae, the great, is both sexy and amazing but I'm willing to admit he had a woeful season last year, he also became one-dimensional which I really don't think is the extent of his abilities, put him on the back burner and see if he can reach his former heights. If he gains his feet and his offloading game back he could be deadly.

Venter - Strong line runner, good block, plenty of pace in short we could do worse.

Esterhuizen - Accused of not having a passing game but if you consistently make the meters he makes who cares.

Am - I'll have to admit to not watching that many Sharks games this year, I here he has potential.

In short we actually have some decent options. but maybe few world class ones (other than Rohan) fair to just play the Lions for now.