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Scottish independence referendum

Will Scotland vote for independence? (Not personal opinion on if they should)

  • Yes

    Votes: 5 19.2%
  • No

    Votes: 16 61.5%
  • Don't know

    Votes: 5 19.2%

  • Total voters
    26
  • Poll closed .
Recent poll suggest a 51% yes vote.

Is it me being ignorant that I have stopped caring about it, both camps have just scaremongering.

At least if scotland separate and join the EU they have to let in english students for free or charge scottish students.
 
Beats the hell out of the hundred years previous though.

The 'best annd brightest leaving' argument is overplayed. Being in my early 20's I know lots of people who have moved away from Ireland. Firstly, lots of them aren't part of this supposed super educated best and brightest class that we all hear about leaving, they're just average Joe's. Secondly, the majority of people I know haven't moved because they can't find work, but rather because they want to live abroad and do other stuff for a while and maybe not come back. That's something that'll always happen in smaller countries though, the world's a big place and people want to have a look.

In any case, we're a first world western economy, something we certainly had not been under Britain in the 19th and early 20th centuries. Church interference buggered us up for a while, but I think we're better for independence.

It's true that unlike in the 1980s where many HAD to leave southern Ireland for work, today its not as extreme and many leave because its easy, travel is more accessible/cheaper, and people are more worldy and have broadened their horizons. However it is still true that the Irish economy lags way behind the UK (therefore us in the north). Watch this..(NI Unionist politician Jim Allister in a debate at Trinity over reuniting Ireland)..

http://youtube.com/watch?v=NApigh_QhEc

As much as i have no time for the bigoted ignoramous he's dead right on the economic argument against doing so. When I was younger and naive I was 100% nationalist, desperate for a united Ireland to reclaim an Irish identity that I have never fully had (always felt in limbo being in the UK as a kinda watered down Irish person). Not proper Irish. Anyway, the economic turmoil in the south is a huge reason to oppose such a unification (for the time being anyway), the Euro scares even the most staunch nationalist. Ultimately I want a united Ireland but it would be lunacy to do it just for reasons of identity/patriotism...so for the time being it's a no goer (although if the Scots leave the UK this would fast track Irish unification as the predominantly Ulster Scots Unionists wouldnt have any ties to the Union). I've said this before, while it obviously wont happen, my first choice would be a united Ireland AND be in the UK...that way I get the Irish identity I've never had while also being in a strong economy detached from the basket case that is the Eurozone.

An English friend of mine worked in the insurance business and was posted to Edinburgh where he was met with an incredible amount of anti-English sentiment being, amongst other things, excluded from certain works functions and outright rudeness. I was invited to one of the pre International drinks by him at their offices and was basically shunned by the Scots.......it may have been just because it was me but two or three other English (which incidentally I am not) felt the same as we congregated together on the other side of the room like boys and girls at a dance in the school hall!!

Eventually, he found it so uncomfortable living in Scotland that he decided to leave so changed jobs and moved, with his family, away.!

The Scots (in general) detest the English. Really im talking about working class Scots, labour voters, those who have a sense of entitlement (Scots cost the state £1300 more per person than the English each year)...everything must be handed out free. With this feeling that they are owed stuff, they have a chip on their shoulder which is directed largely towards those "nasty" English (toffs) who would deprive them of having their stuff. It's backward thinking but that's how many Scots are. They want their own government so they are guaranteed that they will get their stuff for the foreseeable...until the oil money runs out.
 
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Recent poll suggest a 51% yes vote.

Is it me being ignorant that I have stopped caring about it, both camps have just scaremongering.

At least if scotland separate and join the EU they have to let in english students for free or charge scottish students.
Yeah I saw that too. It's quite a quick turnaround for the Yes side.
How soon after the vote would an election take place, because Scotland would be in economic purgatory until then or am I overlooking something?
 
but it does still break my balls every once in a while when you see the virulence they adopt as they go on public demonstrations or their singers are constantly yappin' about how their culture was raped and how they're oh so Breton at heart and yadi yada...it's a broken record, we've heard it so many millions of times, we get it...but just accept the facts at some point, like, move on. You're French now, ya know, that's just how it is...

Given the number of Celts on this forum, I'm amazed this has been allowed - you took two attempts and still couldn't spell Breizh!

You've (possibly inadvertently) hit the nail on the head though - all a minority that feels oppressed needs is a bit of recognition, not a rabble rouser goading them into something that they're going to regret when they wake up with the hangover from hell!
 
Was reading a random BBC article about the Chinese government not being all that fond of the idea of Scottish Independence. Apparently they're a bit bemused at the fact that Westminster is even allowing the Scots the referendum, probably because their usual response to separatism is to send the troops in to stamp it out...
Also Scotland emerging as a breakaway state might lead to someone reminding them that Taiwan isn't actually theirs, no matter how much they insist it is :p they do get pissy about that
 
Tibet an all.

I think the thing that might see this referendum passed is the passion of the Yes voters. Pretty much everyone who wants to Scotland will go and vote, but I imagine a lot of the people who aren't bothered/don't want it, won't.
They should register no shows as a 'No' vote.
 
I don't think many countries in the world like the idea of a major power* voluntarily and under no real pressure agreeing to allow part of the nation a referendum on whether to secede. For most countries, it's opening Pandora's Box. People are quick to jump on the hypocrisy of governments and nations, but I feel that this is a very principled display of democratic beliefs, even if probably buttressed by some maybe ill-placed cynicism somewhere down the line. Few countries would have done what we have done.

Second thought while here. I've heard a lot of people suggest that, freed of the taint of Thatcher, the Scottish Conservative party would blossom in an independent Scotland and that Scotland could look forwards to the prospect of a centre-right party holding all of its levers of power, rather than the current situation where a left/centre-left government with the powers of devolution always stands between them and a Westminster that may or may not hold a right wing party anyway. Food for thought for those dreaming of a more socially fair country.


*rather generous with the definition I know.
 
Oh, also, I've recently read that Scotland are actually intending on joining NATO, after all.
However they probably won't be allowed if they get rid of Faslane. Can't remember the exact reason but it's essentially "If you wanna join NATO you're not allowed to f*** over one of the members".
 
It would be lunacy to not vote yes. Voting yes means they can run there own country the way the want and which is more efficient for themselves.

I always think those at the top should have less power and instead it should be given to smaller and smaller regions. These days all the power is in the biggest population centres which means the wealth flows into those areas because the system is set up like that.
 
Tibet an all.

I think the thing that might see this referendum passed is the passion of the Yes voters. Pretty much everyone who wants to Scotland will go and vote, but I imagine a lot of the people who aren't bothered/don't want it, won't.
They should register no shows as a 'No' vote.

I think that the yes campaign has benefited from having an optimistic message. It is hard to campaign for 'No' and be optimistic. There doesn't seem to be many empirical ways Scotland would be better off with a Yes vote. It is more of a question of what is nationalism worth? New Zealand would probably be stronger economically if we joined up with Australia but no one thinks we should actually do that.

I don't think many countries in the world like the idea of a major power* voluntarily and under no real pressure agreeing to allow part of the nation a referendum on whether to secede. For most countries, it's opening Pandora's Box. People are quick to jump on the hypocrisy of governments and nations, but I feel that this is a very principled display of democratic beliefs, even if probably buttressed by some maybe ill-placed cynicism somewhere down the line. Few countries would have done what we have done.

Second thought while here. I've heard a lot of people suggest that, freed of the taint of Thatcher, the Scottish Conservative party would blossom in an independent Scotland and that Scotland could look forwards to the prospect of a centre-right party holding all of its levers of power, rather than the current situation where a left/centre-left government with the powers of devolution always stands between them and a Westminster that may or may not hold a right wing party anyway. Food for thought for those dreaming of a more socially fair country.


*rather generous with the definition I know.

I think the Scottish Conservatives would do better. Would the SNP still be as relevant in an independent Scotland? I have heard them described as being both to left and right of Labour. Many of the SNP's seats used to be Conservation 50 years ago (apparently) yet some in the party are quite left wing. I could see them breaking up once independence is achieved. In the UK right now people in Scotland seem to be poorer than average so more tend to be left wing and this wouldn't hold after independence. I have also seen Social Attitude Surveys which say that Scotland is not more left wing than England.

It would be lunacy to not vote yes. Voting yes means they can run there own country the way the want and which is more efficient for themselves.

I always think those at the top should have less power and instead it should be given to smaller and smaller regions. These days all the power is in the biggest population centres which means the wealth flows into those areas because the system is set up like that.

I tend to agree that decisions should be localised where possible. However, sometimes it isn't efficient. Monetary and foreign policy should be decided on a national basis, IMO.
 
Can't think of one other country that want scotland to vote yes.

Would be interesting to see areas that could try to split from the major state if they wanted to.

America certainly has some territories that could push it, Even Texas ha looked at trying to leave america.
 
Can't think of one other country that want scotland to vote yes.

Would be interesting to see areas that could try to split from the major state if they wanted to.

America certainly has some territories that could push it, Even Texas ha looked at trying to leave america.

The Irish take on the matter is interesting. Instinctively the feeling is that yes it would be a good thing for Scotland to leave the UK, just like we did eh? Things get a little bit more complicated when you start to go into details however.

The first issue would be the north. Things have been getting slowly better in the six counties since the mid to late 90's, but would Scotland leaving the union have a destabilizing effect? There's a sizable enough segment of the unionist side that identify very heavily with the Ulster-Scots heritage (whether you believe that to be somewhat of a fabrication is another matter) so if the Scots leave the union it leaves them in something of a jam. Meanwhile you'd imagine that republicans would be very encouraged by a Scottish departure. While it's a difficult situation to read, any destabilization of the progress being made in Northern Ireland would be viewed pretty negatively south of the boarder.

Next there's economic issues. As a small Celtic nation with similar populations and production capabilities (they have an edge in natural resources, we probably have a slightly more educated workforce) it's fair to assume that should Scotland go independent they'll look to have closer cultural and trade ties with Ireland. This of course would be a good thing. They may eventually look at going over to the euro too. However, Scotland leaving will inevitably lead to a destabilization of the British economy to a greater or lesser extend, and seeing as the bulk of our trade is with the UK that's not a prospect we'd look forward to. Also, should Scotland look to emulate our economic model we could be looking at increased competition in attracted large MNCs to Ireland.

To be honest, most people over here don't seem to care all that much though. If they get it then fair dues and good luck, if not it's not big deal.
 
Can't think of one other country that want scotland to vote yes.

Would be interesting to see areas that could try to split from the major state if they wanted to.

America certainly has some territories that could push it, Even Texas ha looked at trying to leave america.

I imagine that there's a fair amount of people over here in Wales looking on with interest at a possible "Yes" win, although not anywhere near enough to push for our own referendum any time soon. Although, I'm starting to wonder if a win for the "No" campaign would actually be more beneficial for those who want more powers given to the Welsh assembly. I'm certainly open to the idea of a devolved UK, which seems likely from the promises given by the government.

Also, the can see the US definitely being against a breakaway state. I watched a video the other day talking about the possibilities of a state leaving the union, and there's basically no legal/peaceful option of doing it. Once your in, you're in. In fact the "domestic" enemies they talk about in their oath of allegiance certainly includes anyone try to secede from the Union!
 
If there was a way of peacefully breaking away from the US the Civil War would have never happened. No one actually wants to break away from the US though, even in Texas. I think the Federal government over there has definitely made decisions over the years which has alienated people from certain states. They have just had a big ***** fight about health care. Why not just let every state choose its own healthcare policy?
 
I think the no vote will win by a small margin although as an Englishman my views have changed. Originally I wanted Scotland to stay as it was better security for the whole and because the SNP are, contrary to their claims, the ones acting like bullies here not Westminster. Salmonds flat out refusal to accept he won't get a currency union, blackmailing to not take on their share of the debt, trying to tell the EU it has no decision on whether Scotland joins or not etc. He seems to think he is god and if he says something will happen, it will even if the decision is entirely in the hands of others.

It wasn't that many years ago that Salmond himself called the £ a millstone around the neck of Scotland that they wanted to get rid of ASAP. Now he's prepared to play stupid games with the debt in order to try to bully the rest of Britain into a currency union to keep that same millstone. Many people seem to have forgotten that. However Westminster have been complacent in thinking a no vote is certain and Darling is NOT the sort of man to debate Salmond, who is the perfect politician when it comes to shouting someone else down and not answering the question. However now the Scots are being bribed with even more devolved powers in they say no, which I feel is a worse situation than full blown independence. I want Scotland to become independent for this reason and to reap what they sow. Being independent also means being responsible for the outcomes of your actions. It was largely Scottish banks run by Scots, allowed to bend the financial rules made by a Scot and then bailed out by a Scot that got Britain to where it is now. To then turn around and not claim any responsibility by taking on the share of the debt is outrageous.

Also when Scots claim they have a hard deal, let's look at what Scots get:
1) Their own Parliament. British MPs cannot legislate on matters controlled by the Scottish parliament. This is currently the NHS, education, law, housing, sport, environment, local tourism, agriculture and local government.
2) Despite this Scottish MPs can vote on matters that affect the rest of the UK. Most notably tuition fees for English students would not have passed without the support of the Scottish vote. All together this is called the West Lothian question.
3) Due to the above, Scots gets free prescription, no university fees and more spending from the UK government than anyone in England except for those in London (the funding process is called the Barnett formula)

The argument that English MPs are dominating Scots is ridiculous, it treats English MPs as a monolithic voting block all voting the same way. In matters of English welfare vs Scottish that may have been an issue but that rarely is the case and as we can see, the average Scot gets a much better deal than the average English person.

So I say the current system is wrong and in the event of a no vote, the country needs to be fundamentally reorganised. I'd like to see Westminster challenged too but I don't want to see an already unfair system being made even more unfair in favour of Scotland. It would basically be independence without the need to accept responsibility for a variety of things and the rest of the UK still being there to support Scotland if their banks mess up again (Scotland would not have been able to bail out their banks if they had been independent before the crisis). If the alternative to this system is independence then I hope they get independence but also accept the consequences of such a decision. If they are good, well that's grand. If things go wrong though, don't you dare start blaming England again.

I wish the Scots well whatever the outcome but I don't wish to see nationalistic hatred being levelled against the English or the system being made more unfair. I literally saw someone say it was Englands fault that Glasgow had such terrible health and crime problems and it was not a joke.
 
The no vote has to win because of all their scare mongering. Just check google news to see all the doom and gloom if Scotland votes yes. Whoever controls the media has the power. Its the same the world over.
 
If there was a way of peacefully breaking away from the US the Civil War would have never happened. No one actually wants to break away from the US though, even in Texas. I think the Federal government over there has definitely made decisions over the years which has alienated people from certain states. They have just had a big ***** fight about health care. Why not just let every state choose its own healthcare policy?

I assume it would result in resources being divided differently from the federal government. What if California offered totally free health care would the rest of the country pay for it? From my very limited understanding it seems an instances of the health sector seems too intrenched in privatization that a decent health care system probably will never be state provided.
 
I assume it would result in resources being divided differently from the federal government. What if California offered totally free health care would the rest of the country pay for it? From my very limited understanding it seems an instances of the health sector seems too intrenched in privatization that a decent health care system probably will never be state provided.

That's my point. California should be able to have what ever policies it wants, provided it wants to pay for them themselves. Then people get to vote with their feet. Most of America's problems come from their people having one of two radically different outlooks on life and trying to impose that outlook on other people.
 
Watching the young people debate ATM.

It's pretty rubbish shouting as the norm.

The yes campaign is adamant they will get everything they want.
 

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