South Africa vs British and Irish Lions - Test 2

[Vieux Talonneur]

Agree on the points around precedent setting from Brian Moore - it's why I think it's important to have certain boundaries on what's acceptable and isn't from coaches.

You'd like to think common sense might do the job, especially away from the heat of battle…….but no, some idiot comes along and spoils it for everyone else leading to more bureaucracy. Fair play to Rassie though, my money would have been on Jones

I assume that World Rugby could sanction under some sort of disrepute clause or just issue a general 'against the spirit of the game' rebuke. But you could see Rassie going up in conspiracy theory flames on that given the Chairman is a former Lions captain in SA…..

 

[ncurd]

If Rassie is to be trusted, it appears that the appeal process in World Rugby is pretty broken. Multi-week reviews for on-field decisions is a farce. They should have full reports within 48-72 hours.

Citing happens within 48 hours (I think might be slightly less or more) which is is the only thing that happens that could effect a further match as 99% of the time and entirely different officiating staff will take control of the next game. Which is why length of reviews make sense a ref isn't being asked to fix their mistakes within a week so they are far to cold hard analyse it than not withing the moment.

 

[ChicagoKid]

One thing this brouhaha has revealed is how bad Rugby journalism is. Don't get me wrong, our media isn't great, but our sports media has a lot of top-notch talent.

Who should I be following for good rugby journalism because what I see on my feed is horse manure.

 

[ChicagoKid]

Citing happens within 48 hours (I think might be slightly less or more) which is is the only thing that happens that could effect a further match as 99% of the time and entirely different officiating staff will take control of the next game. Which is why length of reviews make sense a ref isn't being asked to fix their mistakes within a week so they are far to cold hard analyse it than not withing the moment.

But in this instance they are. It's the same 3 refs for the entire test series. So shouldn't feedback be given within 24-48 hours?

 

[McTallshort]

I guess it's a bizarre mindset from my perspective. In the NFL/NBA/MLB/NHL refs come from all over the USA and they ref teams in their hometown or home state or home region. And no one really bats an eye.

Also, the major American sports leagues moved to centralized review locations. Why does the TMO even need to be in Cape Town? Build a centralized review area in some location, hire a global reffing Czar, and let him & his team make the TMO decisions.

You are talking about national sporting events not International

 

[ChicagoKid]

You are talking about national sporting events not International

Mate, all four of those Leagues play in Canada. They are all international leagues.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

 

[McTallshort]

Mate, all four of those Leagues play in Canada. They are all international leagues.

Yeah like the pro 14 and super rugby are international Leagues. We are talking about international test matches played by nations. If Canada and the USA were playing for a WC qualifier would you be happy with the officials being Canadian?

 

[ncurd]

But in this instance they are. It's the same 3 refs for the entire test series. So shouldn't feedback be given within 24-48 hours?

Well a different person is the overall ref and taking charge touch judges have far less influence than the main ref. O'Keefe will almost certainly look at that Watson tackle as the main ref and probably want a further look at it. As touch judge he probably stood there slightly bemused same with Raynal. Berry is only a touch judge now so he's looking at everything with a slightly different perspective.

It would be useful yes but its not in the Earth shattering consequences and certainly considering there are top 'refs' in the world.

Mate, all four of those Leagues play in Canada. They are all international leagues.

Yes but the teams are made of players from a mixture of nationalities. Its no more an international league than say Super Rugby infact less so as the players are so mixed up due to the draft system.

 

[ChicagoKid]

Yeah like the pro 14 and super rugby are international Leagues. We are talking about international test matches played by nations. If Canada and the USA were playing for a WC qualifier would you be happy with the officials being Canadian?

Well a different person is the overall ref and taking charge touch judges have far less influence than the main ref. O'Keefe will almost certainly look at that Watson tackle as the main ref and probably want a further look at it. As touch judge he probably stood there slightly bemused same with Raynal. Berry is only a touch judge now so he's looking at everything with a slightly different perspective.

It would be useful yes but its not in the Earth shattering consequences and certainly considering there are top 'refs' in the world.

Yes but the teams are made of players from a mixture of nationalities. Its no more an international league than say Super Rugby infact less so as the players are so mixed up due to the draft system.

@Tallshort - If the guy is a professional ref, no I would not care.

@ncurd The touch judges have some power to flag incidents though. Overall, to me, I like how O'Keefe refs and speaks to players so I expect this will be a non-issue by Saturday evening.

 

[ChicagoKid]

One more thing that someone brought up online: Alun Wyn Jones never shuts up on the field. He was constantly chatting at the refs on Saturday and he is good at getting in their ears. Siya's personality is way more reserved and on Chasing the Sun, Rassie said Duane Vermeulen played the 'bad cop' to Siya's 'good cop'.

Looks like Rassie is more than willing to play the 'bad cop' with Vermeulen out. That's a pretty clever strategy because you don't want Siya doing something he isn't comfortable with.

 

[ncurd]

I expect this will be a non-issue by Saturday evening.

Oh it'll be an issue, based on several things.

1) There will be at least one big call he'll get wrong/right depending which sets of fans your on.
2) There will tons of more minor things.
3) The score line will likely be close.

Happens every rugby match.

 

[McTallshort]

@Tallshort - If the guy is a professional ref, no I would not care.

@ncurd The touch judges have some power to flag incidents though. Overall, to me, I like how O'Keefe refs and speaks to players so I expect this will be a non-issue by Saturday evening.

But you could see how that would be controversial especially if Canada won on a 50/50 call?

 

[ncurd]

One more thing that someone brought up online: Alun Wyn Jones never shuts up on the field. He was constantly chatting at the refs on Saturday and he is good at getting in their ears. Siya's personality is way more reserved and on Chasing the Sun, Rassie said Duane Vermeulen played the 'bad cop' to Siya's 'good cop'.

Looks like Rassie is more than willing to play the 'bad cop' with Vermeulen out. That's a pretty clever strategy because you don't want Siya doing something he isn't comfortable with.

AWJ is a despite many things a great talker to the ref, reminds me of Johnson or McCaw. Its certainly an art you only have to look at how Farrell rubs them the wrong way.

 

[ChicagoKid]

But you could see how that would be controversial especially if Canada won on a 50/50 call?

We are human beings, we complain about everything. In the MLB, they are actively trying to remove the umpires and replace humans with AI software.

From watching the video, Rassie was clearly peeved about two things: 1.) The way Siya was treated compared to AWJ. 2.) The review process after the game.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

If the Bokke win would this look any better though? From where I sit if the Bokke won and there were clear mistakes favoring us Rassie would look just as bad if not worse off. Even if it were a perfectly reffed game there would and probably should be an air of did Erasmus pressure the ref? It would look as if his little gambit payed dividends. If we lose, why would he "look like a broken man man clinging on"?

Sure but where are the lines and where were these comments from @BrianMoore666 last week? It should either be all or nothing that is allowed. There is too much room for interpretation otherwise.

Don't forget Eddie Jones. They're all guilty of throwing mud in the media.

I don't agree with the idea that it's all the same as last week. Let's remember the reason for this was there being a south African TMO, and I think it's totally fair that Gatland wants to have had a say on this. There is after all a reason why officials of same nationality don't officiate their national team. I say that as someone who overall dislikes the mind games which Gatland, Jones etc spew out. I think his comments were pretty fair, even if he knew that he was achieving extra with it.

And let's be clear by the way, it should be expected that a professional official who hears what Gatland said can think yeah that's fine, doesn't bother me as I back myself to make the right unbiased decisions. If he bottles it on this sort of level of quite basic initial mindgames, then that is ultimately on him, no?

So that brings it back to whether he 'bottled it' and went against his gut decision, or just made a poor decision ( in the Watson incident). It really could be either when you consider his record, including the recent Faff incident which didn't get the requisite sanction either.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

I reckon (from the snippets I watched) he's only broken the last two. Definitely not the 1st pic or 1.5. It was presented as analysis rather than an attack, WR would want to be careful to brand it as abusive or not accepting the officiating.

 

[ChicagoKid]

AWJ is a despite many things a great talker to the ref, reminds me of Johnson or McCaw. Its certainly an art you only have to look at how Farrell rubs them the wrong way.

From an American standpoint, the whole chat around being good at managing the refs is extremely strange and not something we have here. Overall, it seems insanely overblown in the mind of fans.

But you are spot-on that certain players alienate refs and Farrell is example 1A of how to get refs against you.

 

[McTallshort]

We are human beings, we complain about everything. In the MLB, they are actively trying to remove the umpires and replace humans with AI software.

From watching the video, Rassie was clearly peeved about two things: 1.) The way Siya was treated compared to AWJ. 2.) The review process after the game.

Thats the art of being a good captain!

 

[ChicagoKid]

Thats the art of being a good captain!

See my post above. The Rugby community seems to have this weird obsession with how Captains interact with Refs and I don't see it at all. I see the negatives like @ncurd said around Farrell.

People point out Warburton as someone with Jedi mind tricks to get refs on his side. I don't see it. Same with McCaw.

I think it's a myth that the Rugby community has canonized as an important attribute of being a Captain.

We have the same thing in America that was cemented with the release of Any Given Sunday. Pregame speeches are overrated. Having better players and tactics mean more than a big rah-rah speech before a game.