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Sir Speedy
Guest
Nice find Smokey. To answer Cymro's question on Adam and Gethin:
30 tackles between them (17 Gethin; 13 Adam).
One missed (by Gethin).
30 tackles between them (17 Gethin; 13 Adam).
One missed (by Gethin).
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Cymro
Guest
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sir. Speedy @ Feb 14 2009, 11:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
That is SICK!
That is SICK!
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shtove
Guest
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SmokeyMonkey @ Feb 15 2009, 11:54 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
Goode missed more tackles than he nailed!
And some unsung tacklers for Wales.
Nice.
Goode missed more tackles than he nailed!
And some unsung tacklers for Wales.
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Prestwick
Guest
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (shtove @ Feb 14 2009, 10:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
Which is failing miserably as the number of dopey professional schoolboy errors being given away by England for a start was incredible. It just made you hold your head in your hands especially when they were essentially unforced as the pundits pointed out, hands in the ruck when there was no need to as the defensive line was already set, coming in at the side when ball had already been turned over and other such stupid and frankly silly errors that just ruin the game
At the end of the day Kaplan is a total knob but the way the England were playing at times, were you surprised that England got two yellows?
Blah, maybe I'm just too idealistic and maybe such ideas as "decent scrummaging" and "clean play at the break down" are beyond my reach....
...England have become very, how should I put this, "Australian" in their approach to the scrum and soon we'll be resorting to trying to hoodwink the ref into thinking that we can actually scrum when actually we're just a moment away from collapsing it deliberately..again.
Which is failing miserably as the number of dopey professional schoolboy errors being given away by England for a start was incredible. It just made you hold your head in your hands especially when they were essentially unforced as the pundits pointed out, hands in the ruck when there was no need to as the defensive line was already set, coming in at the side when ball had already been turned over and other such stupid and frankly silly errors that just ruin the game
At the end of the day Kaplan is a total knob but the way the England were playing at times, were you surprised that England got two yellows?
Blah, maybe I'm just too idealistic and maybe such ideas as "decent scrummaging" and "clean play at the break down" are beyond my reach....
...England have become very, how should I put this, "Australian" in their approach to the scrum and soon we'll be resorting to trying to hoodwink the ref into thinking that we can actually scrum when actually we're just a moment away from collapsing it deliberately..again.
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An Tarbh
Guest
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Monkeypigeon @ Feb 14 2009, 11:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
nothing spectacular from either player, although Ellis got a couple of sly kicks in towards the end
nothing spectacular from either player, although Ellis got a couple of sly kicks in towards the end
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Prestwick
Guest
Looking at the match facts, its interesting to see that Wales kicked away more possession than England and completed less offloads (Wales's 7 to England's 13) the telling stat however is Wale's domination at the set piece with them winning far more and stealing or at least disrupting more than England.
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An Tarbh
Guest
I'm never sure how accurate these stats are, apparently the Scots only had 1 linebreak in Paris.
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Hall
Guest
Worsley - 14 tackles, 1 missed.
Flutey - 15 tackles, 0 missed.
Interesting.
Flutey - 15 tackles, 0 missed.
Interesting.
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gingergenius
Guest
Well I missed the game due to being on a series of trains back from that dump Reading, where I witnessed a shocker between Irish and Quins...
Anyway I've now watched the entire game on tape and I can say the following:
1. It is a measure of how good Wales are that they can not play very well, come up against an England side really handing out fire, and still win. They could easily have lost that game, but at the same time they were always in the lead and this is another stepping stone to what, unfortunately, is looking like becoming a great Welsh team.
2. Much better effort from England. I said we needed to get the physical edge back into our game and we did.
3. Sheridan had a much better game ball carrying, and the scrums seemed to be even, which seemed about fair.
4. Much more impressed with Borthwick today as well, not least for his tackling.
5. Obviously Worsley had a cracker. I was one of many people who was disappointed by his selection, but I could also see why it was made, because of his doggish nature. Really good game, he is still not a long-term option at 7 for us and he's going to be ancient come 2011 so I question whether it's worth having him around at 6 or 8.
6. I was impressed with Haskell. He was all over the field, and based on yesterday and last week, seems to be getting close to his form of last season. Most importantly, he conceeded 0 penalties.
7. Easter wasn't particularly bad, but he was overshadowed by the efforts of of the England flankers, and I'd have a think about putting Narraway in at 8 next week.
8. Ellis had another great game. f*** all the haters, watch how aware he was in defence; covering kicks and tackling in midfield like an extra flanker. Put in a few good kicks too.
9. Goode and even Flood looked good. Problem is, neither can kick. Also, I can't trust Goode to string 2 quality performances together given he never has at any level. Cipriani to be included in next match squad.
10. Flutey had his best game for England. If he plays like that every time, then he's got my vote for the 12 shirt. Tindall did nothing all game and I repeat: Matthew Tait.
11. Very happy with the back 3. Armitage had a cracker. I personally see him as at least equal to Kearney. Cueto and Sackey both tried things and Sackey took his try very well and nearly scored a second.
12. I thought we can have a lot of complaints about referreeing consistency. We can't complain about the penalties because we were indisciplined, and gave them away under pressure. But if Kaplan was going to be hard on us and send players to the bin, then he has to do the same to Wales. Lee Byrne, for the second time in 2 weeks, escaped a binning for foul play (taking Armitage in the air). It looked very similar to Geraghty's last week. And Martyn Williams was called up at least twice, and should have got a binning as well on the principle of even-handedness. It is not an excuse for us, just a hindrance.
13. We found out a lot more about some of the Welsh players who've bee on the receiving end of major praise recently. Jenkins and Jones are both clasping possible Lions starting places at prop, they both played very well. Rees was much better as well yesterday, particularly in the loose. Alun Wyn-Jones and Ryan Jones were excellent. Byrne showed some very nice touches too as usual, and Halfpenny didn't put a foot wrong.
14. Andy Powell needs a big game next time out because it's looking more and more like his outstanding Autumn form was simply form. Don't forget we haven't seen him sustain anything for a few years, so I'm not counting chickens for him. Worsley did a Betsen on Jamie Roberts, and it wasn't really JR's fault he couldn't impact more on the game. But you'd expect Shanklin to take up the mantle.
15. Even though they could easily have lost, I can see this Wales side getting more battle hardened; they're confident and now they're getting experience of simply winning. Looking ominous for the near future.
16. Hopefully England can use this as a confidence platform to go on and become a competitive team again. What has angered us most recently is that we've been 'flat' in everything we do. Yesterday brought back some fire, and even though Wales look like dominating the NH for the next few years, we've now shown that we can mix it with the best sides. If we move on from this, we can be in the World's top 5 teams.
Anyway I've now watched the entire game on tape and I can say the following:
1. It is a measure of how good Wales are that they can not play very well, come up against an England side really handing out fire, and still win. They could easily have lost that game, but at the same time they were always in the lead and this is another stepping stone to what, unfortunately, is looking like becoming a great Welsh team.
2. Much better effort from England. I said we needed to get the physical edge back into our game and we did.
3. Sheridan had a much better game ball carrying, and the scrums seemed to be even, which seemed about fair.
4. Much more impressed with Borthwick today as well, not least for his tackling.
5. Obviously Worsley had a cracker. I was one of many people who was disappointed by his selection, but I could also see why it was made, because of his doggish nature. Really good game, he is still not a long-term option at 7 for us and he's going to be ancient come 2011 so I question whether it's worth having him around at 6 or 8.
6. I was impressed with Haskell. He was all over the field, and based on yesterday and last week, seems to be getting close to his form of last season. Most importantly, he conceeded 0 penalties.
7. Easter wasn't particularly bad, but he was overshadowed by the efforts of of the England flankers, and I'd have a think about putting Narraway in at 8 next week.
8. Ellis had another great game. f*** all the haters, watch how aware he was in defence; covering kicks and tackling in midfield like an extra flanker. Put in a few good kicks too.
9. Goode and even Flood looked good. Problem is, neither can kick. Also, I can't trust Goode to string 2 quality performances together given he never has at any level. Cipriani to be included in next match squad.
10. Flutey had his best game for England. If he plays like that every time, then he's got my vote for the 12 shirt. Tindall did nothing all game and I repeat: Matthew Tait.
11. Very happy with the back 3. Armitage had a cracker. I personally see him as at least equal to Kearney. Cueto and Sackey both tried things and Sackey took his try very well and nearly scored a second.
12. I thought we can have a lot of complaints about referreeing consistency. We can't complain about the penalties because we were indisciplined, and gave them away under pressure. But if Kaplan was going to be hard on us and send players to the bin, then he has to do the same to Wales. Lee Byrne, for the second time in 2 weeks, escaped a binning for foul play (taking Armitage in the air). It looked very similar to Geraghty's last week. And Martyn Williams was called up at least twice, and should have got a binning as well on the principle of even-handedness. It is not an excuse for us, just a hindrance.
13. We found out a lot more about some of the Welsh players who've bee on the receiving end of major praise recently. Jenkins and Jones are both clasping possible Lions starting places at prop, they both played very well. Rees was much better as well yesterday, particularly in the loose. Alun Wyn-Jones and Ryan Jones were excellent. Byrne showed some very nice touches too as usual, and Halfpenny didn't put a foot wrong.
14. Andy Powell needs a big game next time out because it's looking more and more like his outstanding Autumn form was simply form. Don't forget we haven't seen him sustain anything for a few years, so I'm not counting chickens for him. Worsley did a Betsen on Jamie Roberts, and it wasn't really JR's fault he couldn't impact more on the game. But you'd expect Shanklin to take up the mantle.
15. Even though they could easily have lost, I can see this Wales side getting more battle hardened; they're confident and now they're getting experience of simply winning. Looking ominous for the near future.
16. Hopefully England can use this as a confidence platform to go on and become a competitive team again. What has angered us most recently is that we've been 'flat' in everything we do. Yesterday brought back some fire, and even though Wales look like dominating the NH for the next few years, we've now shown that we can mix it with the best sides. If we move on from this, we can be in the World's top 5 teams.
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An Tarbh
Guest
I'm sorry but the only thing I noticed from Ellis were those sly little kicks towards the end of the match. His service was woeful, don't know how many times the receiver was taking the ball at or above head height, not to mention the speed at which he retrieved the ball, lightening it was not. No breaks of any note either which is traditionally his stronger area.
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Prestwick
Guest
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (An Tarbh @ Feb 15 2009, 09:48 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
Well, they are the official ones so I'd expect them to actually do the job that they're paid to do....I think the problem with line breaks is the definition of them. One person might argue that someone breaking a tackle and running five meters before being pulled down is a line break while another may say that its only a line break if someone gets through cleanly and makes substantial ground. You're never going to have an accurate line break stat...
EDIT: Also I thought Ellis's service was rubbish too. In his rush to try and get it out quickly he was just chucking it out at any kind of angle. I thought he dithered a bit too when it became obvious that Wales had turned it over and didn't do enough a couple of times to alert those around him that the ball had been turned.
Further Edit: Could have been worse, could have been Justin "Mauro Bergamasco" Marshall at nine but don't worry, he was entertaining the crowds at Puritan Gardens...oh hang on..
Well, they are the official ones so I'd expect them to actually do the job that they're paid to do....I think the problem with line breaks is the definition of them. One person might argue that someone breaking a tackle and running five meters before being pulled down is a line break while another may say that its only a line break if someone gets through cleanly and makes substantial ground. You're never going to have an accurate line break stat...
EDIT: Also I thought Ellis's service was rubbish too. In his rush to try and get it out quickly he was just chucking it out at any kind of angle. I thought he dithered a bit too when it became obvious that Wales had turned it over and didn't do enough a couple of times to alert those around him that the ball had been turned.
Further Edit: Could have been worse, could have been Justin "Mauro Bergamasco" Marshall at nine but don't worry, he was entertaining the crowds at Puritan Gardens...oh hang on..
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An Tarbh
Guest
now I said this yesterday but that really should be referred to as a Mallet.
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dullonien
Guest
Excellent post Gingergenius, agree with all of that (except the Burne incident, though I'll watch the game again today and make a less booze influenced decision).
I can't believe our linout stats, we didn't loose one, and from what I remember, all of them were cleanly taken, providing good service (most were even off the top!), that is quite unbelievable. Have we finally sorted our archillias heel? A few months ago, the linout alone could have cost us that game, considering how tight it was at points.
I think the bigges stat I could find from that website was:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>
That's quite a big difference in metarage, considering the identical run count!
I can't believe our linout stats, we didn't loose one, and from what I remember, all of them were cleanly taken, providing good service (most were even off the top!), that is quite unbelievable. Have we finally sorted our archillias heel? A few months ago, the linout alone could have cost us that game, considering how tight it was at points.
I think the bigges stat I could find from that website was:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>
That's quite a big difference in metarage, considering the identical run count!
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Prestwick
Guest
The problem is that meterage counts for nothing unless you convert it into points. Against England you can rely on a steady stream of penalties to keep the scoreboard ticking over but against the likes of New Zealand and South Africa with even slicker and better drilled defenses (especially scramble defenses)? All you're going to be doing is a lot of running without achieving anything.
What Wales now have to learn is to turn that pressure into opportunities and use their highly mobile 2nd and back rows to try and force teams into mistakes. Otherwise, you're just going to see Jamie Roberts and Lee Byrne make 30 meters against New Zealand, get tackled and then get either turned over or pinged for holding on because the defense is that good.
What Wales now have to learn is to turn that pressure into opportunities and use their highly mobile 2nd and back rows to try and force teams into mistakes. Otherwise, you're just going to see Jamie Roberts and Lee Byrne make 30 meters against New Zealand, get tackled and then get either turned over or pinged for holding on because the defense is that good.
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shazbooger
Guest
Have to say I was impressed with England. A couple of things I'd say.
England: Bring Tait in for Tindell and you might actually scare a few opponents. The 10 slot is still tricky. Goode had good and bad bits. He's a defensive liability and for that reason alone he shouldnt be there, his kicking is on and off but no-one else is putting their hands up. Maybe just stick Cipriani or Flood in there and let them play their way into form.
First sign of Johnson actually making an impact. Worsley into the 10 slot with Goode packing down in the Scrum was a very intelligent bit of strategising. Havent seen a coach be that brave since ...... well last weekend but this one worked well. Worsley was simply fantastic. He didnt just put him down, he went into the hits agressively everytime. I've never been a fan but you simply have to respect a player that puts it on the line time after time.
Flutey did OK. lets not get all over excited. As Shtove said, Halfpenny is a back, hes 20 I know, but hes not Shane Williams. Just a good little winger who can kick.
I'm joining the "Why cant Leigh Byrne just play rugby" club. Granted I'm only picking up on it after Prestwicks rant, but he has a point. Against Scotland he spent a lot of time mucking about off the ball, obstructing follow up runners etc. That accidental collision was not accidental. If he wanted to avoid the player he could have. Fact is he never went for the ball, so should have slowed down and taken him out once he dropped. Hes a fantastic player (great runner, good kick from hand), and a shoe in at 15 for the lions, but I'd love to see him cut that shite out of his game. He doesnt need to do it.
Wales went a bit negative with 15-20 mins to go which is totally understandable. Its the kind of game Munster used to play when they want to shut it down. Ugly but effective.
England: Bring Tait in for Tindell and you might actually scare a few opponents. The 10 slot is still tricky. Goode had good and bad bits. He's a defensive liability and for that reason alone he shouldnt be there, his kicking is on and off but no-one else is putting their hands up. Maybe just stick Cipriani or Flood in there and let them play their way into form.
First sign of Johnson actually making an impact. Worsley into the 10 slot with Goode packing down in the Scrum was a very intelligent bit of strategising. Havent seen a coach be that brave since ...... well last weekend but this one worked well. Worsley was simply fantastic. He didnt just put him down, he went into the hits agressively everytime. I've never been a fan but you simply have to respect a player that puts it on the line time after time.
Flutey did OK. lets not get all over excited. As Shtove said, Halfpenny is a back, hes 20 I know, but hes not Shane Williams. Just a good little winger who can kick.
I'm joining the "Why cant Leigh Byrne just play rugby" club. Granted I'm only picking up on it after Prestwicks rant, but he has a point. Against Scotland he spent a lot of time mucking about off the ball, obstructing follow up runners etc. That accidental collision was not accidental. If he wanted to avoid the player he could have. Fact is he never went for the ball, so should have slowed down and taken him out once he dropped. Hes a fantastic player (great runner, good kick from hand), and a shoe in at 15 for the lions, but I'd love to see him cut that shite out of his game. He doesnt need to do it.
Wales went a bit negative with 15-20 mins to go which is totally understandable. Its the kind of game Munster used to play when they want to shut it down. Ugly but effective.
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monkeypigeon
Guest
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (An Tarbh @ Feb 15 2009, 10:21 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
Surely picking people entirely out of position should be called a Mallet, whereas Mauro was throwing the ball.
Surely picking people entirely out of position should be called a Mallet, whereas Mauro was throwing the ball.
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MunsterMan
Guest
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (dullonien @ Feb 14 2009, 09:32 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
You are obviously not a fullback. That was as obvious a yellow card there has been all tournament. Something as dangerous as that can't go unpunished.
You are obviously not a fullback. That was as obvious a yellow card there has been all tournament. Something as dangerous as that can't go unpunished.
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Cymro
Guest
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gingergenius @ Feb 15 2009, 09:49 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
Disagree with these two!
Shedrian was poor at scrum time so many times did Kaplan have to reset because he could not hold the weight which was shocking!
Powell did what was asked just because he never beated a man means that he did not have a good game. I wonder what people are looking at on this forum half of the time! Powell did his job he took 3 English players out almost everytime he ran with the ball, he also made ground everytime! The fact he was taken off was because he could not give anything, the fans at the stadium appreciated this. I know for a fact that Ryan Jones was meant to alternate with Powell for the kick offs but did not want to!
Also all Worsely did throughout the game was man mark Roberts out of the game, well done but it was never a man of the match performance! What Wales should have done was swapped Shanklin and Roberts around or pull Roberts off and put Hook on at 12!
Disagree with these two!
Shedrian was poor at scrum time so many times did Kaplan have to reset because he could not hold the weight which was shocking!
Powell did what was asked just because he never beated a man means that he did not have a good game. I wonder what people are looking at on this forum half of the time! Powell did his job he took 3 English players out almost everytime he ran with the ball, he also made ground everytime! The fact he was taken off was because he could not give anything, the fans at the stadium appreciated this. I know for a fact that Ryan Jones was meant to alternate with Powell for the kick offs but did not want to!
Also all Worsely did throughout the game was man mark Roberts out of the game, well done but it was never a man of the match performance! What Wales should have done was swapped Shanklin and Roberts around or pull Roberts off and put Hook on at 12!
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Bullitt
Guest
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MunsterMan @ Feb 15 2009, 02:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
You are obviously not a fullback. That was as obvious a yellow card there has been all tournament. Something as dangerous as that can't go unpunished.
[/b][/quote]
Knowing the RFU, expect them to pull out all the stops when he's cited to be banned for 100 years.
You are obviously not a fullback. That was as obvious a yellow card there has been all tournament. Something as dangerous as that can't go unpunished.
[/b][/quote]
Knowing the RFU, expect them to pull out all the stops when he's cited to be banned for 100 years.
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dullonien
Guest
Just checked the stats on Powell, 17 carries, making 107 metres, that's pretty impressive for a bad day at the office. Thought he had a great game personally, he was subbed because Gatland wanted to close out the game, bringing Dafydd Jones on for his extra defensive capabilites. Gatlad has always maintained subs eren't there just for injuries/poor form, they are there to bring on and change the game.
I think Heaslip has possbily moved ahead of Powell for the lions, but it's pretty close imo.
I think Heaslip has possbily moved ahead of Powell for the lions, but it's pretty close imo.
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