Wales vs England - 16/03/2013

[dullonien]

I think England fans need to be patient. This campaign was a little like Wales' in '05, if you had won the grand slam it would have been a bit of a false dawn. Wales managed it because the rest of the teams in '05 were a bit meh, England failed because Wales are a very, very good team, a good 2-3 years ahead of England at present. However there are a core of players present in that England squad that will go on to better things.

I agree that selection has been an issue. I banged on about it before the match, because to me playing the likes of Wood, Robashaw and Brown out of position was a crazy decision, when there are so many quality players available to England. However there is another issue that can't be solved by bringing in new players, and that's a lack of experience. There is simply no experience anywhere, and that isn't an issue Lancaster can solve over night. He's going to have to wait for the current English players, the likes of Cole and Robshaw to gain that experience.

Regarding Farrell, I wouldn't bother with him tbh. If he had experience, then you would keep him, but he's just a rookie, and his main asset is his goal kicking, which crumbled yesterday. Get Burns in there, and develop him asap.

I think the way Tuilagi is being used at the moment is criminal. They are so unimaginative in the way they play him in backs moves and general attacking philosophy that he himself now only runs into contact (see the wasted overlap yesterday). He seems to have the idea that he can dominate through power alone embedded by his coaches.

I don't think it's a coaching problem with Tuilagi. His default is to put his head down and run. The NZ performance was the exception, not the other way round. But he has the potential to change that, so you've gotta hope he can develop him game.

 

[SecondRow04]

Corbisiero not be back in time then?

Maybe wise to give him the summer off, take a tighthead from the Saxons. Forgot about Joseph at 13 as well.

 

[Peat]

Thing about your bin list - I don't think we're playing entirely to these guys' strengths. Which isn't a reason to keep them per se, but more a reason of why the hell are they there if the coaches aren't going to let them go at it? I like Flood, but if you don't have runners on his shoulder, you're not getting much out of him. Goode has barely stepped into the line as a first receiver at all. As for Ashton, the support running is gone... just irritating. Goes beyond them as well - Croft was playing a central part end of last 6N and looking back to his best, comes back and we find him drifting to the wing again... coaches can't be allowing or encouraging that. I don't recall Haskell really getting many carrying chances in midfield. And yeah, Tuilagi is not being used too great either. Very odd. Don't know what to make of it.

Broadly agree with your list of people under threat and that it would be nice to see an English scrum-half who is, uhm, less mercurial. Ben Spencer is worth keeping an eye on - hell, Wiggy's not a bad short term option either, god help us.

I agree that selection has been an issue. I banged on about it before the match, because to me playing the likes of Wood, Robashaw and Brown out of position was a crazy decision, when there are so many quality players available to England

...

Regarding Farrell, I wouldn't bother with him tbh. If he had experience, then you would keep him, but he's just a rookie, and his main asset is his goal kicking, which crumbled yesterday. Get Burns in there, and develop him asap.

Who? Back-row terms that is. Steflon can't get himself fit enough for Lancaster's demands. Ben Morgan's great when fit - after that, Waldrom is ho-hum, Vunipola very raw. Might have been worth the gamble. Realistically we have tons of guys who can do blindside; opensides and 8s seem to be in lesser supply.

And disagree, Farrell's starting to offer a bit more, and his goal kicking will continue to develop and be worthwhile - Burns should be the man, but Farrell's deffo worth keeping around.

 

[dullonien]

Who? Back-row terms that is. Steflon can't get himself fit enough for Lancaster's demands. Ben Morgan's great when fit - after that, Waldrom is ho-hum, Vunipola very raw. Might have been worth the gamble. Realistically we have tons of guys who can do blindside; opensides and 8s seem to be in lesser supply.

And disagree, Farrell's starting to offer a bit more, and his goal kicking will continue to develop and be worthwhile - Burns should be the man, but Farrell's deffo worth keeping around.

Well at 8 I would have gone with Vunipola, even if he is raw. Wood was never a good option there, despite his class. At 7, yes it's difficult, but I would have probably moved Robshaw to 6 and played Wood at 7 for yesterday's game. I still think that Wood is also a 6, but he fits the 7 mould better than Robshaw, and is the best option for the time being until another option comes along.

Keep Farrell on the bench then, but with the potential Burns offers, he should come in straight away and see if he can develop there.

 

[Crapspray]

Well after finally watching the match, after missing it yesterday, the result certainly reflected the play. Well done to the Welsh. Did their homework and ruthless exploited England weaknesses, which had been left exposed for far too long now. Heck of a way to win a tournament.

That being said, it was heartening to see that even in the cauldron of the Millennium Stadium, when everything was going to hell, the likes of Robshaw, Cole, and Wood were all putting in absolutely everything they had. They may have been beaten comprehensively, but they didn't fold like the last lot in 2011.

In the summer England must get an attacking back-line. As has been said earlier, England have forwards for an attacking, non-set-piece, game; they need backs to match that. Burns, Twelvetrees, May, Wade, Eastmond, Simpson, and maybe even Daly all need a good crack this summer. England made chances in the game, but far too often the ball was taken into contact or blindly off-loaded. They're desperately in need of someone who, when they're five yards out, like Larry Bird said, they can give the ball to and get out of the way. Forwards also need a couple of big ******** to get over the gain-line. When Wales were smashing England back there seemed no one that could just be given the ball and would make the extra few hard yards to speed up play. Morgan and Vunipola (major or minor) come to mind.

Poor end to the tournament, but the team is getting better. The culture and coaching seems right, all that's needed now is the right set of players.

 

[Aristodemus]

The problem for England this whole tournament is selection. I tip my hat to Wales, they played very well yesterday and deserved their ***le but it does feel like England threw it away.
Creativity will win games, and despite a decent performance against Scotland it has been severely lacking. Why? Take a look at our backline. Farrell isn't a running FH, he isn't even a consistent kicker which is now translating to his goal-kicking %, both Burns and Flood kick better and run better. Barritt needs to go, with a great player like Tuilagi outside him you need a creative IC to allow him a chance to show what he can do. Twelvetrees is the man to go with, he is not weak in defence either. The back three is open to many options, but one thing is for sure, Goode is ****. He can't run, he can't take high balls under pressure, he loves to bust into the line and butcher any attack that looks promising and he has the defence of ROG. Brown and Foden are light years beyond him. The wings could be two from many but as it is, Savea would struggle to score tries in this side. They are not getting the ball.
The forwards missed Corbs, but Marler should not have been played when Vunipola is in there. Hooker needs to be solid, scrums cost penalties and lineouts cost tries. Hartley is better than Youngs in both of these, forget the loose. In the back row we just needed to play people in their position instead of the joke it became after Morgan was injured. If you want Croft, then drop Wood. Vunipola or Easter should have been brought in after that injury. Forget Waldrom. Wood, Robshaw and Vunipola would have been my choice.
The various sections of the media has proclaimed Lancaster as the saving grace of English rugby but I don't see that. He has made a right mess of this tournament and especially the decision to stick with Goode has left me losing faith in him.
At least we can take a look at France and know it could be worse, alot worse

 

[Crapspray]

Regarding Farrell's kicking, is there any reason why he's suddenly taking penalties from near the half-way line? I can't remember him doing it at all last season, the longest I remember was the Calcutta Cup, when he missed from 45 yards away. He always struck me as the Patterson/Laidlaw sort of kicker. Very good if it's 35 yards away, but nigh-on useless at long-range- when you wheel out the donkey. Perhaps, as he's very good at kicking corners, instead of a low percentage kick England could try and cross the whitewash. I know, crazy.

 

[kesh]

Congratulations Wales. Going to watch the hightlights... it will be hard viewing. <_<

Alot of what happened could be seen coming a mile off. Wont go into specifics, the knee-jerk reactions are abit too strong atm. Hightlighting individual errors and players after what was a collective dicking is abit too much.

Expecting alot of experimenting in the Argentina tour. The backline (Goode aside) has excellent elements that perhaps need redefined. Wade, Tomkins (poaching his excellent brother from Wigan could be on the cards), another look at Foden, Burns etc etc. Lancaster moving Manu to the left wing in the second half against Wales was a telling move... i've been thinking the exact same with regards to Manu. He started out as a left winger and he could be used as battering ram still in the way Ashton is used as one in set plays.

Agree that blooding player's is vital long term, yet we lacked a No.8 and No.1 considering the opposition. In reality we have Easter and Sheridan who could of made a huge difference. All easy to say with hindsight, and perhaps not practical introducing them given the issues surrounding such moves. For a big game such as that though, a team needs its best players available. Maybe talking abit of nonsense now. Well done Wales.

 

[Largejanner]

5. I think I fancy trawling the last few pages to see if there have been any comments on the game by LargeJanner (or whatever his username is), taking into account the idiotic tripe he posted before this match.

Lol!...
I fronted up within minutes of the game finishing and was the epitomy of contrition too, it won`t be the last time as a follower of English sport that my bullish opinions pre-match have resulted in me looking a tad c**tish afterwards!

And that friend, is a prime example of why English supporters are thought of as arrogant. Our only ambition i Six Nations supremacy. Apparently England are better, because they aspire to better things. So we're god enough to put 30 points on England, but not good enough to get further than them on the world stage?

Well.....thus far, yes!
Although maybe this Welsh team is good enough to do it, time will tell.

 

[Stephan Palmer]

hard to say but congratulation Wales, despite everything you finally turn up. I was left feeling rather disappointed with this year six nation the opening week seem so bright then it turn in poor scrums and ping pong kicking. England seem to lack the understanding on the pitch to alter their game plan when the game and ref is against you, Wales so a lot of street smart at the scrum and the break down which seem to lead to England to rushing their game and making mistake after mistake. Overall I'm little disappoint with way England preform during later half of six nation, we where poor against France, and Italy, England seem to have one game-plan and when that failed where unable to alter their silty of play.

Reading thought some of the other post on this form, I agree some of the tactic and positioning seem a bit one phased, why Aston was on pitch was beyond me. Oh well there are three more year until the world cup to get thing right - hopfully England learn from this and come back next year with fire and passion.

 

[Patchey]

Regarding Farrell's kicking, is there any reason why he's suddenly taking penalties from near the half-way line? I can't remember him doing it at all last season, the longest I remember was the Calcutta Cup, when he missed from 45 yards away. He always struck me as the Patterson/Laidlaw sort of kicker. Very good if it's 35 yards away, but nigh-on useless at long-range- when you wheel out the donkey. Perhaps, as he's very good at kicking corners, instead of a low percentage kick England could try and cross the whitewash. I know, crazy.

This is why we need someone with the range of Twelvetrees or Daly. I think Farrell did kick some longer penalties succesfully last year but you're right, his percentage is much better in the 35 yard range.

Who wants to start an 'England Summer Tour' thread so we can all moan together about selection in private?

 

[psychic duck]

 

[smartcooky]

...maybe this Welsh team is good enough to do it, time will tell.

Its 44 years since Wales beat Australia in Australia (1969, although they did beat them in New Zealand in 1987), they have only ever beaten South Africa once in 26 attempts (1999) and its coming up for 60 years since they beat the All Blacks (1953, that's even before I was born).

However, I do think that this Welsh team is not far off ending the years of misery.

 

[ratsapprentice]

This is why we need someone with the range of Twelvetrees or Daly. I think Farrell did kick some longer penalties succesfully last year but you're right, his percentage is much better in the 35 yard range.

Who wants to start an 'England Summer Tour' thread so we can all moan together about selection in private?

+1 on both counts.

 

[psychic duck]

Its 44 years since Wales beat Australia in Australia (1969, although they did beat them in New Zealand in 1987), they have only ever beaten South Africa once in 26 attempts (1999) and its coming up for 60 years since they beat the All Blacks (1953, that's even before I was born).

However, I do think that this Welsh team is not far off ending the years of misery.

Wales blew 2 matches in the last minutes of the last 2 tours.

In 2007, Wales were winning in the last minute and had the ball in Australia's half only for crap Gareth Cooper to do one of the worst pieces of decision making and kicking I have ever seen. That cost the match.



In 2012, Wales again were winning in the last minute, only for Richie Hibbard to give away two penalties in the last minute to lose the match. So the last two tours, if it weren't for last minute brain freezes, there would be at least two wins.

 

[Largejanner]

Wales blew 2 matches in the last minutes of the last 2 tours.

In 2007, Wales were winning in the last minute and had the ball in Australia's half only for crap Gareth Cooper to do one of the worst pieces of decision making and kicking I have ever seen. That cost the match.

In 2012, Wales again were winning in the last minute, only for Richie Hibbard to give away two penalties in the last minute to lose the match. So the last two tours, if it weren't for last minute brain freezes, there would be at least two wins.

Cudda, Wudda, Shudda!

 

[ratsapprentice]

Isn't that the whole point though? They do make errors which cost them the matches.

 

[Conal]

Cudda, Wudda, Shudda!

grand slam


Cudda, Wudda, Shudda!

 

[smartcooky]

Great falcon!!

 

[Largejanner]

grand slam


Cudda, Wudda, Shudda!

Not really, we were hammered yesterday.