Wales vs England - 16/03/2013

[homer29]

Right, only just watched the match. What a waste of my life. Obviously congratulations to Wales. Great, well deserved win for them. At least this game won't have been a complete waste for England and Lancaster. There are a few things that have struck me today.

1. How we could have done with Corbs today. Marler needs to get out until he learns to scrum (saying that, in his England career so far, he hasn't had any impact in the loose either). I couldn't really understand Lancaster's decision to start him over Vunipola after the Italy match. Bizarre.
2. Ben Youngs. Out. I've usually been a supporter of Youngs in times when he's been criticised in the past but enough is enough. I've had it with his bull****. The number of times I shouted at him that game was incredible. Care to start please.
3. Goode is starting to seriously annoy me. He's not really done anything spectacular this 6N (and in the Autumn Internationals tbh...) and I think Brown at 15 would be a far better option, and would allow us to see the best of Brown. Hopefully Foden will be back soon and normal service will be restored.
4. Again with the back three. Even though their anonymity in attack may have been due to a chronic lack of service from midfield, I would love to see Lancaster picking players who are actually on form in the Prem. I'm talking May, Varndell and the like (maybe not Wade quite yet, but hopefulle he will be given at least a go in the Summer).
5. Back row boys weren't great today. I think it's clear we need a bit Morgan/Vunipola in our life. As great a player as Wood is, he just doesn't belong at 8. We want him back on the flank asap methinks. Oh and Croft, I was looking forward to seeing what he might be able to contribute - **** all.
6. Launchbury and Parling are both great players in their own right, but I'm having a slight feeling that our lack of a real 'enforcer' (I know, I hate that phrase too) may be slightly harming us. The trouble is, assuming Lawes is that player, who do you take out...?
7. My faith in Farrell has slowly eroded throughout this championship. That's unfair I know, but I would love to see Burns chucked in there. On the subject of the midfield, I really really really really really really want to see Twelvetrees starting.
8. Lastly, Tuilagi had a darn poor game.

A couple of other points in general:
1. Being honest, I haven't flicked through the past pages so I'm not sure if this has been covered, but should Owens have been pinged for Cuthbert's first try? Not that it mattered one bit in the end.
2. As much as he gets on my nerves, I have to say I thought Mike Phillips had a top notch game today. If he plays like that, i would love for him to start for the Lions. There would be no man better to p*** the Aussies off .
3. Scrums this 6N are a joke. Luckily, I could fast-forward through the ones in this game.
4. The general consensus seems to have emerged that Warburton and Tipuric is a great combo for Wales. It's gonna be seriously interesting to see what happens once Lydiate comes in.
5. I think I fancy trawling the last few pages to see if there have been any comments on the game by LargeJanner (or whatever his username is), taking into account the idiotic tripe he posted before this match.

I'm sure, in hindsight, there will be a few things I've written which I will come to realise is knee-jerk, but needed to get that lot off my chest. Congrats if you've managed to get through all of it.

How sad that you thought that a part of your life had been wasted by watching this game.

 

[Joseph14]

I may have been being a little too emotional about it, but watching Alun wyn Jones, Halfpenny and half the Welsh team watery eyed blasting the Welsh Anthem nearly made me tear up. In hindsight, it just sort of summarised the way Wales played throughout the game. Just incredible for a Welsh fan to watch

It's weird but the Welsh intensity reminded me of how England were against the all blacks.

It's like they had a look around, knew full well how big a game it was and thought 'this is it' and didn't take a backward step all day. Hats off to those on the pitch in red today. Fully deserved the win and the championship with it.

Lots to work on regarding England. Lots!

 

[smartcooky]

We should do a TRF spoon, hand it out also to the RWC champion in 2015 and they pass if off to whoever they beat...I'd be interested to see how far down the IRB rankings the Spoon would get in the cycle.

Argentina would currently hold it if it had been started after the 2011 World Cup.

Ireland picked it up after losing 10-42 to New Zealand on 9 June 2012

The Irish dropped it on Argentina when they won 46-24 in November 2012

 

[Peat]

Congratulations Welsh people, absolutely deserved and done in style. I hope you are all enjoying it.

How do you feel about Howley now as a potential successor to Gatland?


As for England - so much of went wrong was highlighted before hand. The thing that worries me most is the collapse, albeit coming from chasing the game a little. I thought mental strength and calm under pressure were our main cards - no such thing. I take no real happiness in pointing out I'd said beforehand that Farrell is not the peerless ice kicker he'd been made out to be; now, absolutely everyone knows. Horrible match for it to happen, felt it was a blow to morale - and a shame as he's winning me over as a fly-half with some creative touches. His little kick through for Brown was sublime.

There we go. Rebuild, come back stronger - we know what we need, hopefully Lancaster does too, the players are there by and large with two international windows to blood them. Not every problem identified needs fixing per se, but together they form more issues than we can cope with against a strong side.

The only other thing I'd add, something I haven't heard many say - but our pack and backline are picked for completely different games. The pack is a lightweight unit with tremendous athleticism who can really inflict damage at a high tempo, but with a few set piece problems. The backline is a unit redolent with tactical kickers and a huge, defensively solid midfield presence complete with can't pass/won't pass (to be harsh). Either the backline needs to become more attack orientated to suit the pack, or the pack needs to become more set-piece orientated to suit the backs.

 

[dullonien]

Re-watching the game, the breakdown has stood out for me. Wales were very disciplined, very streetwise in this area of the game. England did get players in position to jackle the ball on a consistent basis, but Wales' clearing out was just too good. Often this just required pulling the jackling player forwards off his feet, and getting players over the top, lots of judo style rucking techniques being implemented.

England were also pretty decent at counter rucking, but instead of panicking and flopping on the ball and giving away penalties, Wales just allowed England's ruckers to come through, and then one or two Welsh players came through behind them and re-formed the bridge at the ruck. It meant that Wood, Robshaw and Cole had little impact on the breakdown, and allowed Wales to recycle the ball for a large number of phases, eventually squeezing out the penalties from what was a very organised and disciplined English defence.

Edit. Just got to Wales' second try, wow, even better on second viewing. Faletau beats about 3 players with quick feet, Warburton with a searing break, and then Tipuric probably doing a centre's job better than any of the four proper centres on display could, releasing Cuthbert. Stunning try created by the backrow trio in unison.

This is what impressed me so much about the Welsh backrow today. They dominated play in the tight, but still had the pace and footballing ability to do something like that in the 66th minute.

 

[ratsapprentice]

There we go. Rebuild, come back stronger - we know what we need, hopefully Lancaster does too, the players are there by and large with two international windows to blood them. Not every problem identified needs fixing per se, but together they form more issues than we can cope with against a strong side.

The only other thing I'd add, something I haven't heard many say - but our pack and backline are picked for completely different games. The pack is a lightweight unit with tremendous athleticism who can really inflict damage at a high tempo, but with a few set piece problems. The backline is a unit redolent with tactical kickers and a huge, defensively solid midfield presence complete with can't pass/won't pass (to be harsh). Either the backline needs to become more attack orientated to suit the pack, or the pack needs to become more set-piece orientated to suit the backs.

I agree completely, especially in regards to the bit I quoted. I think we need to play to our strengths in regard to the players we have available.
The best young backs in the prem are all pacy as **** and the forwards quite balanced between set-piece power and fairly expansive going forward.
The backs need a fairly hefty re-shuffle, and the pack needs a bit of balancing. I think if Lancaster has the balls to remove the players that aren't up to it sharpish then we could see a nice bit of development this summer.

I also think that England's strength in defense actually allowed Wales to build their intensity in a perverted way. Being able to drive it up the middle gave them traction.

 

[Jbobo]

allowed Wales to build their intensity in a perverted way. Being able to drive it up the middle gave them traction.

I agree. England was a tight mistress and driving it up her middle provided very good traction for Wales indeed.






...Now that's perverted

 

[munstermuffin]

Lads Ashton really has to be feeling pressure for his spot now. And Foden surely has to come back in to the reckoning for 15 along with Brown. Even in defeat though I must say Robshaw has taken to the captaincy like a duck to water

 

[TPenn]

I agree there to some extent. I think that kind of forward performance is difficult to re-produce, but other than taking our chances we still didn't set the world on fire in attack.

When I talk about balance I mean someone like Henson or Beck coming in at 12 (leaving Roberts and Davies to fight it our for the 13 shirt), and Eli Walker onto the wing to add something different to North and Cuthbert. North and Cuthbert were great today, with Cuthbert taking his opportunities this game, but they are still very similar. Maybe Walker won't step-up, but if he does, he offers something a little different.

I also think that we'd be even more dangerous with a proper scrum half. Phillips had a stormer today, but a genuinely classy scrum-half like an on-form Peel would have been so much more of a threat with ball in hand behind a forward display that was so dominant, and that would have possibly resulted in more try's. Maybe we haven't got that player available yet, but Lloyd Williams after a dip in form is a classy 9, and there are a few at the Scarlets who could offer that traditional 9 game. Rhodri Williams has been superb for the U20's, that's the kind of player I'd like to see, but he needs to perform at regional level first.

I know I should just be happy with what was a very, very good performance by every single Welsh player, but I can still see areas to improve, and players available that could potentially do that.



Will you please calm down. He's done nothing wrong, so stop telling him what to do and where. I know you are upset with the result, but try not to take it out on others.

Seriously, Wales would be completely lost without Phillips at 9. There isn't anyone else who comes close to doing the job he does for the side. Look back at the Italy game as he's making clearing kicks with Castro hanging off him, the turnovers against Scotland and some absolutely thumping tackles today. He may be a prat off the field, but his performances over the last 5 years have been consistently excellent for Wales, and he is the ultimate big game animal.

Besides, with the backline we play, I don't see how a scrum half firing quick, but not necessarily good, ball at Biggar constantly would help things. If we were throwing the ball around then maybe, but the structures we play just wouldn't work.

 

[dullonien]

Seriously, Wales would be completely lost without Phillips at 9. There isn't anyone else who comes close to doing the job he does for the side. Look back at the Italy game as he's making clearing kicks with Castro hanging off him, the turnovers against Scotland and some absolutely thumping tackles today. He may be a prat off the field, but his performances over the last 5 years have been consistently excellent for Wales, and he is the ultimate big game animal.

Besides, with the backline we play, I don't see how a scrum half firing quick, but not necessarily good, ball at Biggar constantly would help things. If we were throwing the ball around then maybe, but the structures we play just wouldn't work.

I agree that Phillips is outstanding at what he does. He is great at cleaning up poor ball, and handling the pressure. His big-game temperament is also great. But he stifles attack, he really does. With our pack going so well, we could really afford to have a more traditional scrum-half to transfer that front-foot ball on the backline, and become even more dangerous. Of course, having a distributing centre to compliment this would be preferable.

This isn't a real criticism of Phillips. He isn't a traditional scrum half, and doesn't have the ability to play that way. He often plays to the fullest of his ability, and I love his attitude, so fired up, but rarely oversteps the line. I still feel that if we're looking for ways to actually improve from this showing, even if it was a phenomenal showing, getting better service to our lethal wingers is certainly an area where big improvements can be made. Phillips isn't the only problem here, but he's part of the problem.

I don't think Wales would be lost without him, although at the same time accept that this is more a wishlist thing at the moment, as this classy traditional scrum half doesn't current;y exist. Lloyd Williams is the closest, but needs further improvement, and there are a few youngsters with potential.

 

[nickdnz]

I'm eating a delicious cake.

 

[dullonien]

I'm eating a delicious cake.

How very random, I like it. I could eat a slice of cake now, although I really should go to bed.

 

[djames6]

JPR in the Telegraph said he was sorry for England as the game was lost for them during the Welsh National Anthem.

 

[Peat]

I'm eating a delicious cake.

How did you enjoy that nick? One of the better games of the tournament for a neutral imo.

 

[tompaton]

Warburton and Tipuric - wow. Just wow. They were unbelievable and their games are being taken to a whole new level when both are on the field. Question is now, will this be the Welsh back row for the near future? Dan Lydiate going to France could backfire on him. Warburton is a better ball carrier than him and has such a breakdown presence, whilst being a reasonably destructive tackler. I think he carries better more when Tipuric is on as he is forced to take on this role more. Would love to see more in future because he is a powerful runner and has great pace. Wonderful to see him back himself today.

Tipuric is just a class footballer, and we finally saw his footballing ability in a Welsh shirt for the first time.

But this the beauty of the situation. The threat of these two will cause Lydiate to take his game to a new level. Probably improve his ball carrying and become an even more destructive tackler.

Faletau was mesmeric today as well. He is a brilliant player.

Now who will be in the Lions back row?

 

[easy2288]

England was thinking this going to be walk in the park and unfortunately it was not. So they were shocked especially WALES performance was 2 level higher and the commitment they show in the match.

Look at how neat and tidy Owen Farrell hair was after the game and you could see how much he has contribute to the game. He was not the only one but the whole team was not there.

 

[j_remos]

England were poor. We all knew we had no attacking threat on the wings. No surprise we couldnt do anythng on the rare occasion Cant pass Wont pass in the centers didnt stop the ball getting out there.

If your not going to pick actual threats like Wade for there poor perceived defence you would hope the donkeys you do pick were not revolving doors. You can cover for a poor defensive wing when you have a fast decent last up tackler like foden. Not with this selection.

There are a Lot of good looseheads in this country. None are called Marler.

Youngs s a good hooker, needs more game time but I would have started with Hartley. Experience would have been good in that match. Might have given us a chance.

Cole is great. Had a lot to do though but in the tight and loose he worked hard.

Second row.... both excellent but not balanced. Need to try a different combination. Who to drop though?

Back row.. Robshaw and Wood played there hearts out and must be knackered and sore. Didn't even spot croft except when he was out of position. Balance in the back row is wrong. We either need a real 7 or 8. Its fine to have 2 6.5s unless there paired with a winger.

Ben Youngs was shite. He usually is in tough games. Farrell did ok. He is young and growing. Now is the time to give him so.e backing. Even though I hate his stupid face.

That about it? Oh subs were left too late to make a change. Once it was obvious we were in the **** we should have swapped them all. Might have just given us a chance to try something different.

Wales were much better. But we knew that because England had nothing but a reasonable pack and some defensive centers.

We are a young team though so still looking bright in the long run. As long as we can drop some of the crap in the backs.

 

[psychic duck]

 

[TPenn]

I agree that Phillips is outstanding at what he does. He is great at cleaning up poor ball, and handling the pressure. His big-game temperament is also great. But he stifles attack, he really does. With our pack going so well, we could really afford to have a more traditional scrum-half to transfer that front-foot ball on the backline, and become even more dangerous. Of course, having a distributing centre to compliment this would be preferable.

This isn't a real criticism of Phillips. He isn't a traditional scrum half, and doesn't have the ability to play that way. He often plays to the fullest of his ability, and I love his attitude, so fired up, but rarely oversteps the line. I still feel that if we're looking for ways to actually improve from this showing, even if it was a phenomenal showing, getting better service to our lethal wingers is certainly an area where big improvements can be made. Phillips isn't the only problem here, but he's part of the problem.

I don't think Wales would be lost without him, although at the same time accept that this is more a wishlist thing at the moment, as this classy traditional scrum half doesn't current;y exist. Lloyd Williams is the closest, but needs further improvement, and there are a few youngsters with potential.

I think Phillips gets a lot of unwarranted stick about his delivery. One of the things that was pointed out awhile ago was that his strength also translates to his passing, and he can really zip the ball wide very quickly.

He is excellent at tiring defences out and keeping them honest, and creating the gaps for others. I think the way to improve the backline is to look at:

a) Halfpenny or Walker one one of the wings. If Halfpenny goes then Byrne at full back is a much better attacker than Leigh.

or

b) Possibly in conjunction with the above, North to 13.

or

c) Beck/Hook/Henson to 12.

 

[ratsapprentice]

England was thinking this going to be walk in the park and unfortunately it was not.

Look at how neat and tidy Owen Farrell hair was after the game and you could see how much he has contribute to the game. He was not the only one but the whole team was not there.

This is simply wrong.