Wales vs England - 16/03/2013

[j_remos]

This is simply wrong.

Agreed. Bit and unfair to pick on a guy wearing his team "Hitler Youth" haircut and not being able to make it messy.
Its not styled, he just has an odd shaped head to go with his stupid face.

 

[Peat]

This is simply wrong.

Indeed. 11 tackles, none missed. By the standards of fly-halves, we should be making posters of him all Stalinist propaganda style for mighty industry and commitment to cause. In Soviet Russia, fly-half tackles back-row.

 

[Big Ewis]

Wales will always have this tremendous intensity. It's pretty amazing to watch. England have consistency, NZ has crazy flair attack and the Ozzies, France will shock the world every few full moons, Ireland has this magic about them at times, but Wales have this incredible intensity, and it's healthy. It's not like some other sides who basically shove it in your face ever so arrogantly. Fans are just happy, on their own little clouds. It was an amazing performance, quality rugby, ****n intense and that never let down. I remember the 2008 (?) last match when Wales beat France for the Slam, even their scrum pushed us way back in the waning moments.
The Welsh heart is an impressive thing to behold, and I knew they wouldn't let anything cross their lineup yesterday, and I knew strong play was coming every time.

It's a beautiful ending to this year's chapter, and right now I'm looking very much forward to that Pool of death in 2015 when things looked so horribly bleak for this brave Welsh side just not so long ago...
Wales FINALLY used the strength and height/size of those backs, Cuthbert was fkn powerful, as North. Half-Penny was worth a thousand bucks (ha...ha........get it ?).
A real tournament final, not some fukkn cheap-ass poor man's finish with damn penalties and a crappy try at the end or wtvr.

And btw (to annoy the poms just a tad bit more ) this is, what, the 6th time England loses the 5th game to choke for the Slam ?? (oh boy, I dunno what's coming, but it's gonna be bad !) oh and please, don't be cheap and mention France as ripost, I know we're absolutely horrible nothing can possibly vex me at this point, trust me. An admitted thing, again and again on this forum, I fully fully stand behind my ass-sucking side ! :lol: this is about YOU right now.

 

[Triniquint]

Dullonien- a brilliant Wales England look mediocre. I am English and support England, but though enjoying their rather turgid games so far, hoping they were just a young team consolidating themselves, Wales exposed their naivety and poor selection/performance. I thought Wales were outstanding and represent the NH very well as 6N champions. They did to England what England did to the ABs last November - so what goes around, comes around. Enjoy the win, you deserved it.......

 

[Taylo2]

Having slept on it I thought I would add my own thoughts.

Firstly, well done to Wales. They have grown and grown as the tournament went on, and disregarding the first half against Ireland, have looked back to their dangerous best.

Now, this wasn't all down to how badly England played, but also how well Wales did their thing.

England stayed in the game up til half time, but the first try was the death nail so to speak. Heads seemed to drop slightly and maybe the occasion got the better of them. The work rate however was still there, and that has to be a positive for us, right up until the final whistle tackles were being made, and commitment was still there.

Wales won the scrum battle, rightly or wrongly Walsh seemed to have made up his mind fairly early that something was wrong with the English scrum. I'm no expert in that department, but credit has to go to the welsh pack, they kept going and winning the penalties that up until then, we hadn't easily conceded in this years events.

Mike Brown has to have some praise from an england perspective. He put in a real shift for me, even though both tries were scored down his flank, he was giving it everything.

We now have some time to settle down, reflect on what has happened and move on. Some players will be away with the Lions which will disrupt the Argentina tour, but we have to take lessons from yesterday no matter how bad it hurts.

As for Wales, I can see them growing stronger and stronger. Next step has to be a tour win in one of the big 3 SH countries, not just one match but to win the series. A very strong possibility right now. Oh and big kudos to the selection of Warburton and Tipuric in the back line....what a force they created! Jamie Roberts was immense again in defense, I really do think he is the best 12 in the home nations and has stamped his place in the lions starting XV.

Onwards and upwards for Wales, and hopefully England can regroup and learn from this.

F*** that was painful saying that

 

[Big Ewis]

Dullonien- a brilliant Wales England look mediocre. I am English and support England, but though enjoying their rather turgid games so far, hoping they were just a young team consolidating themselves, Wales exposed their naivety and poor selection/performance. I thought Wales were outstanding and represent the NH very well as 6N champions. They did to England what England did to the ABs last November - so what goes around, comes around. Enjoy the win, you deserved it.......

England hardly crushed the sick and/or exhausted AB 30-3 (the 3 coming from an incredibly lucky Farrell kick !) and in your analogy England are hardly, hardly the AB at the moment !! :lol:
just sayin ! I'm not sure we're dealing with what goes around comes around, but I'm personally very very glad this happened to England because some teams, just like some ppl in life generally, need a good spanking every once in a while to be reminded they're not as brilliant as they think. I've been saying the whole tournament England isn't all that, but fans as expected were completely deaf to those calls, only looking at the points piling up in the win column. There's just zero attack. Zero attack. And even Samoan Tuilagi isn't as impactful as before. And that no. 15 of yours........dear God, that guy is a joke. Literally, a joke. Kept cracking up after noticing him this game. His attempts at sidesteps are a delight for the eyes.

 

[Tony Manx]

Well played Wales, the intensity throughout the game was amazing.

After 2 poor performances a hammering was bound to happen to this English side. Looking forward to the summer tour, with the hope of some form wingers being given a shot. Can't be any worse than what Ashton has offered all tournament. Brown to fullback until Foden regains form. Would love to see any of May, Biggs, Wade and even Varndell given a chance to make a dent. As much as i can't fault Barritt's commitment, it would be hard not to select Twelvetrees to come in at 12 to provide some sort of attack.

Assuming Farrell, Tuilagi, Robshaw, Cole and Wood all go on the Lions tour, i'd like to see a summer team of

1. Vunipola
2. Youngs
3. Wilson
4. Launchbury
5. Parling
6. Haskell
7. Armitage please
8. Morgan
9. Care
10. Burns
11. Biggs
12. Twelvetrees
13. Erm... Trinder? Lowe? Hopper? Eastmond?
14. May
15. Brown/Foden

16. Hartley
17. Marler
18. ?
19. Lawes
20. Vunipola
21. Youngs
22. Flood
23. Wade

Corbisiero not be back in time then?

 

[mochyn]

wales best xv

I agree there to some extent. I think that kind of forward performance is difficult to re-produce, but other than taking our chances we still didn't set the world on fire in attack.

When I talk about balance I mean someone like Henson or Beck coming in at 12 (leaving Roberts and Davies to fight it our for the 13 shirt), and Eli Walker onto the wing to add something different to North and Cuthbert. North and Cuthbert were great today, with Cuthbert taking his opportunities this game, but they are still very similar. Maybe Walker won't step-up, but if he does, he offers something a little different.

I also think that we'd be even more dangerous with a proper scrum half. Phillips had a stormer today, but a genuinely classy scrum-half like an on-form Peel would have been so much more of a threat with ball in hand behind a forward display that was so dominant, and that would have possibly resulted in more try's. Maybe we haven't got that player available yet, but Lloyd Williams after a dip in form is a classy 9, and there are a few at the Scarlets who could offer that traditional 9 game. Rhodri Williams has been superb for the U20's, that's the kind of player I'd like to see, but he needs to perform at regional level first.

I know I should just be happy with what was a very, very good performance by every single Welsh player, but I can still see areas to improve, and players available that could potentially do that.



Will you please calm down. He's done nothing wrong, so stop telling him what to do and where. I know you are upset with the result, but try not to take it out on others.

I think Wales would better served with Henson at 12 great hands awareness and upper body strength and stick Ryan Jones in as one of the great motivators, his intensity is awesome.Even a below strength Welsh team was too good on the day

 

[Triniquint]

Here comes Mr. Prejudiced, steaming in and attributing to me his own interpretation of what he thinks I said. Grow up, learn some rugby (as well as manners and grace), and then you may be able to converse with the grown ups.

 

[Bluemoon]

What a game. What a day in Cardiff.

In short, I think the break down and the scrum dominance was really the difference. England really struggled to get over the gain line with the welsh defence. England's defence eventually crumbled under the pressure and hence, a 27 point difference.

SCRUM

Quick question on the scrum. The argument about pushing early came up a lot during commentary in a number of games and have been discussed in depth.

See the law below. And consider the following. When the 'hit' is present in a match, you have to consider that the majority of the time, one team will gain an advantage in the hit. Ultimately, if the scrum stays up and the pressure is taken, the ball is put into the scrum immediately. It is my understanding that referees are encouraged to tell the scrum halves to put the ball immediately in, if the scrum is set.

IF you want a stationary scrum and it not to collapse occasionally (with human error and pressure, this is inevitable), then I would argue that you have to start stationary and bound. It would be much easier to referee, but would it be the same challenge? You could still challenge for the ball through pushing?

I think the issue is that the scrum halves are waiting for either their team to win a hit to put the ball in, or for pressure to cause someone to break binding/drop the scrum. I agree they must wait for the scrum to be straight, but you cannot wait for your pack to be on top, the ball must be placed in straight away. Im interested in others thoughts.

20.5 Throwing the ball into the scrum

No Delay. As soon as the front rows have come together, the scrum half must throw in the ball without delay. The scrum half must throw in the ball when told to do so by the referee. The scrum half must throw in the ball from the side of the scrum first chosen.

EDIT

Just Saw This

Stationary and parallel. Until the ball leaves the scrum half's hands, the scrum must be stationary and the middle line must be parallel to the goal lines. A team must not shove the scrum away from the mark before the ball is thrown in.

Whats the point of a hit if you want it to stay stationary?

Please see http://www.irblaws.com/index.php?law=20

 

[Peat]

Bluemoon - you are entirely right about the contradictions in the scrum. Starting bound was how they used to do it and I think they should go back to it. Just to add - pushing early is a penalty, but rarely given. How do you get a stationary scrum if you refuse to penalise the team that won't let it be?

 

[Bluemoon]

Absolutely. I think there is to much for one main set and a distant set of eyes to watch. Especially if you take into consideration the binding, a legal feed, foot up, ensuring only the hooker touches the ball, heads up e.t.c. As with a lot of aspects of the game, it is somewhat of a lottery. Often the referee makes a call base don evidence that is correct on what he saw at the time.

In yesterdays case, Walsh wanted the ball in and wasn't (or arguably couldn't) looking for a completely stationary scrum. The referee is human and can only referee so many aspects of the game.

There is a great project called the scrum steering group that will hopefully start to address these issues. (http://www.irb.com/newsmedia/mediazone/pressrelease/newsid=2062780.html)

 

[j'nuh]

Farrell did ok. He is young and growing. Now is the time to give him so.e backing. Even though I hate his stupid face.

This makes me want to cry. Why give him some backing? What has he shown? He is to the tactical game what Cipriani was to the attacking game - a player hyped beyond his years to the point that it's nauseating.

Much more than a loss for England yesterday, it was a loss for the whole Sarries approach. Andy Farrell has been telling us throughout how great his variant of the blitz defense is, how the territorial game will triumph, but it's now been shown to come embarrassingly short against top teams.

Tinkering isn't the solution. Nearly the whole backline needs binning. I would be okay if Youngs, Barritt, Ashton and Goode never played for England again. Tuilagi is on thinner and thinner ice. Farrell can stay as third-choice.

Attack beat defense yesterday and that's the route we need to go down. Time for these players: Simpson, Care, Burns, Daly, May, Varndell, Twelvetrees, JSD, Benjamin, Monye, Abendanon, Foden, Morgan. The scoreline yesterday would have been at least respectable if we took our chances in attack.

 

[Patchey]

Isn't tearing into Farrell because he's had a couple of bad games just as bad as overhyping him after a few good games? I agree that he has been overhyped, he isn't the next Wilkinson yet, but he's still preferable to Flood. Can't argue with the idea of cutting Youngs, Ashton and Goode though. They all either need to find some club form or in the case of Youngs learn how play behind a pack that isn't dominant and stop acting like a stereotypical 'diva' scum half.

 

[Rhondda Rudie]

There is a chronic lack of creativity from England at 10-12-13.One try in the last four games (and that shouldn't have been awarded) tells its own story.Burns and Twelvetrees would be a much bigger threat at 10-12 and would create more time and space for Tuilagi to run riot.

 

[ratsapprentice]

That's the main issue with Youngs, Care and Flood; they all flatter to deceive with their running game. They don't make the players around them play well/better, which is the main role of the half backs is it not?

So ingrained is Youngs'/Care's perceived quality in the English rugby psyche that I can't see any more fast service SH's being given an opportunity.

 

[Saint Matt]

This makes me want to cry. Why give him some backing? What has he shown? He is to the tactical game what Cipriani was to the attacking game - a player hyped beyond his years to the point that it's nauseating.

Much more than a loss for England yesterday, it was a loss for the whole Sarries approach. Andy Farrell has been telling us throughout how great his variant of the blitz defense is, how the territorial game will triumph, but it's now been shown to come embarrassingly short against top teams.

Tinkering isn't the solution. Nearly the whole backline needs binning. I would be okay if Youngs, Barritt, Ashton and Goode never played for England again. Tuilagi is on thinner and thinner ice. Farrell can stay as third-choice.

Attack beat defense yesterday and that's the route we need to go down. Time for these players: Simpson, Care, Burns, Daly, May, Varndell, Twelvetrees, JSD, Benjamin, Monye, Abendanon, Foden, Morgan. The scoreline yesterday would have been at least respectable if we took our chances in attack.

That's all well and good, but there is only so much swapping and changing you can do before you trust in the group you have. Continuity is key in any sport, and as a rugby nation, we simply haven't had the continuity over the past ten years or so to build a side capable that know each others game inside out.

I appreciate that there are certain players that need to be replaced (Ashton,Bartitt and Goode to name three) but the likes of Farrell have shown enough over the past year or so for us to believe and trust in them.

All the players you mentioned are superb talents, but you can't throw them all in at once and expect them to perform, because I guarantee that the majority of people will feel exactly the same as the do now. What we need to do is trust in what we have, but at the same time, look to the future, and blood these your talents in slowly one by one, rather than throwing them all in at once and expecting them to perform as a unit - because they simply won't.

 

[Patchey]

I think the 'myth' of Youngs' fast service has been dispelled a little by some of his performances this championship. I'd even be so bold as to suggest that Lee Dixon would have done a better job than Youngs, and certainly Care would have been a better choice of starting SH. Of course none of us know what goes on in training sessions, Youngs could be playing like Morgan Para behind closed doors for all I know, but based on his performances on the pitch he needs to improve big time.

 

[Peat]

Youngs is capable of very good service. So is Care. Last time I saw Dickson for England he'd slowed down a little and was scattergun.

By and large when the pack goes well, those players go well. When the pack doesn't, neither do they. Ben Morgan has been missed a ridiculous amount. And the half-backs can lay as much criticism to the players outside them as those players can do to them. When was the last time Ashton made a decent tracking run off of our half-backs? Maybe once against France? How often does Barritt hurtle against the gainline and present back really good ball? Its cylical.

And Care had the same problems as Youngs against Italy. How many people were going "Care, eurgh?" after the Italy game? Plenty. And now people are saying Youngs should never play again and Care is the man. There's a touch of hysteria to this all. Tuilagi is on thinner and thinner ice? Who's going to replace him? Are we seriously suggesting binning a 21 year old with a 1 in 2 try ratio from the centre? Farrell created a few absolutely golden chances that got wasted. Brown's offload off the dink through goes to Tuilagi, try. Tuilagi gives the ball to the 3 on 1 overlap after Farrell's cutback, try. Tuilagi doesn't drop the ball after that move from the lineout, probably a try. There's only so much an out-half can do if his backs refuse to convert try scoring opportunities.

Lancaster needs to sit down, identify a few players who can come in and inject creativity/go-forwards, identify who makes way and then go from there - not throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Unless we're talking the back three baby, in which case out it goes.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Lancaster needs to sit down, identify a few players who can come in and inject creativity/go-forwards, identify who makes way and then go from there - not throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Unless we're talking the back three baby, in which case out it goes.

Just to be clear I wasn't suggesting that Lancaster throws out Care and Youngs. I do think we need a different sort of player though, to pressure them, they are too similar IMO.
I do hope we have seen the last of Flood though. Has never been anything more than a journeyman, and now is the time to rid the team of journeymen.
Burns and Farrell are our two short-mid term prospects, those two alone.
I think the way Tuilagi is being used at the moment is criminal. They are so unimaginative in the way they play him in backs moves and general attacking philosophy that he himself now only runs into contact (see the wasted overlap yesterday). He seems to have the idea that he can dominate through power alone embedded by his coaches.

People in the squad who need to step up or make way (bearing in mind how strong the competition in their place is):
- Marler
- Barritt
- Croft (I'd argue he's not good enough at all)
- Hartley (although I don't know who could replace him right now)
- Haskell and Lawes need to significantly improve their consistency, when they've been good they are good enough.

People who I think need to be let go:
- Flood
- Ashton
- Goode

For those that are about to point out how Ashton is a proven try scorer, let me just remind you that when he was scoring for England he was also scoring in the premiership by the bucketload, and he wasn't being put under any pressure in defense. Neither of those facts are true today.
Being the top try scorer in the premiership does not mean that you will do so at international level, but if you aren't shining in the prem then how can you expect to perform at a higher level?