[2015 RWC] Warm Up Match: Wales vs Italy (05/09/15)

TobesHodges · Sep 10, 2015

I don't want to discourage optimism, but can't encourage stupidity..

valley commando · Sep 10, 2015

TobesHodges said:
With this analysis why have a tournament? Just give the Cup to Wales! You never seize to amaze me Valley..

Okay so whats your argument against ?

TobesHodges · Sep 10, 2015

valley commando said:
Okay so whats your argument against ?

Joe Marler

Samson Lee

Jamie George

Ken Owens

Dan Cole

Paul James

Courtney Lawes

Luke Charteris/ Bradley Davies

Joe Launchbury

Alun Wyn Jones

Tom Wood

Dan Lydiate

Chris Robshaw

Sam Warburton

Ben Morgan

Toby Falutua

Ben Youngs

Gareth Davies/Mike Phillips

George Ford

Dan Bigger

Johnny May

George North

Brad Barritt

Jamie Roberts

Jonothan Joseph

Scott Williams

Antoney Watson

Alex Cuthbert

Mike Brown

Liam Williams

Those are the teams, that are probably the 1st XV, the Bold ones are who I think are realistically better than the other, when there both bold, that means there pretty much the same..

How you think Bigger is better than Ford i don't quite know, I would have said he isn't much better than Farrell as an all round player..

I think England have a better balance in the centre's, though overall are probably at about the same level..

Saying Wales have more options at back row, is slightly miss leading, considering i think you could only have Tipuric in there, otherwise theres no-one else.. Where as England have Vunipola, Haskell and even Burgess if you liked..

As a whole I think England just edge it, I just can't see your view on Wales being pretty much dominant of England over most of the park..

SelimNiai · Sep 10, 2015

I try to stay out of arguing like this but Robshaw better than Warburton?

Pull the other one, its got bells on.

Mrs. Peter Quinn · Sep 10, 2015

Position by position rather than head to head:

Marler > James
Owens > George (at what matters most)
Cole > Lee
Lawes = Charteris
Alum Wyn > parling
Wood = lydiate (both equally ****)
Robshaw = Warburton (both important to their countries in such different ways)
Morgan > Faletau (my opinion, of course)

Youngs > Philips/ Davies (Webb > Young's)
Ford = biggar (ford has higher potential but biggar has been very good for wales in the last year apart from one turn style tackle against Ireland
North > may
Roberts > barritt
Joseph > Scott Williams
Watson > Cuthbert
Brown > williams

j'nuh · Sep 10, 2015

England-Wales XV:

1. Jenkins
2. Owens
3. Cole
4. Launchbury
5. AWJ
6. Warburton
7. Tipuric
8. Morgan
9. Youngs
10. Biggar
11. May
12. Roberts
13. Joseph
14. North
15. Brown

Wales slightly ahead for me (8-7). Would edge further ahead with Webb and Halfpenny, but on the other hand, England have most of the bench locked down imo.

Ford isn't in the same league as Biggar.

TobesHodges · Sep 10, 2015

TRF_SelimNiai said:
I try to stay out of arguing like this but Robshaw better than Warburton?

Pull the other one, its got bells on.

:lol: Matter of Opinion this one, Robshaw i think usually tops the stats, But warburton gets him self around the pitch much better the Robshaw..

Mrs. Peter Quinn · Sep 10, 2015

j'nuh said:
England-Wales XV:

Ford isn't in the same league as Biggar.

U wot?? What league do you think biggars in, out of interest?

Belvedere · Sep 10, 2015

Biggar is badly underrated.
His kicking and defensive work are as good as any ten in the world.
His distribution is great too.

With Priestland as our second choice 10, Bigger is our most important player imo

AzaMatt · Sep 10, 2015

HenryChinaski said:
U wot?? What league do you think biggars in, out of interest?

i think Biggar is in the pro12.....thank you im here all week, try the veal

TheSaffycen · Sep 10, 2015

I think Biggar is an absolute world class 10. He can play almost any style, he has no glaring weaknesses, a brilliant and underrated player.

j'nuh · Sep 10, 2015

HenryChinaski said:
U wot?? What league do you think biggars in, out of interest?

Biggar is the Stephen Jones to Ford's James Hook.

TobesHodges · Sep 10, 2015

Im going to Opt out of this battle, because I just dont understand.. It's probably my small brain, We are talking about the same Bigger that nearly lost to Italy at the weekend right?

RedruthRFC · Sep 10, 2015

j'nuh said:
England-Wales XV:

1. Jenkins
2. Owens
3. Cole
4. Launchbury
5. AWJ
6. Warburton
7. Tipuric
8. Morgan
9. Youngs
10. Biggar
11. May
12. Roberts
13. Joseph
14. North
15. Brown

Wales slightly ahead for me (8-7). Would edge further ahead with Webb and Halfpenny, but on the other hand, England have most of the bench locked down imo.

Ford isn't in the same league as Biggar.

Pretty fair I would say.

If the Welsh players are as markedly stronger than the English as some posters are suggesting, what do you attribute the fact that there's little to chose between the two sides to? Does this mean that Gatland is a really bad coach, Lancaster a really good one or a little of the both?

Raggs · Sep 10, 2015

j'nuh said:
England-Wales XV:

1. Jenkins
2. Owens
3. Cole
4. Launchbury
5. AWJ
6. Warburton
7. Tipuric
8. Morgan
9. Youngs
10. Biggar
11. May
12. Roberts
13. Joseph
14. North
15. Brown

Wales slightly ahead for me (8-7). Would edge further ahead with Webb and Halfpenny, but on the other hand, England have most of the bench locked down imo.

Ford isn't in the same league as Biggar.

What game are you trying to play? With that lineup I'd have Ford at 10, Biggar is very good at what he does, but Fords attacking vision is almost unique. What's the point in having so much pace and ability at the breakdown in the pack if you're not going to be chucking the ball about like a lunatic in the backs.

Marler over Jenkins for me, Launch hasn't yet impressed and looks to be carrying more timber (not yet adapted). If going full out attack, I'd perhaps put Williams at 15, but until he's had a run out it's a tough one. Owens vs Youngs is a close call, Owens is the better lineout operator, but Youngs is a beast in the loose and if he avoids his hiccups (which he did fairly well against Ireland) is worth a pick.

Equally, if playing gatlandball, I'd take Hask over Tips, Williams over Joseph and stick with Biggar, probably take Wigglesworth at 9 as well

valley commando · Sep 10, 2015

TobesHodges said:
Joe Marler
Samson Lee
Jamie George
Ken Owens
Dan Cole
Paul James
Courtney Lawes
Luke Charteris/ Bradley Davies
Joe Launchbury
Alun Wyn Jones
Tom Wood
Dan Lydiate
Chris Robshaw
Sam Warburton
Ben Morgan
Toby Falutua

Ben Youngs
Gareth Davies/Mike Phillips
George Ford
Dan Bigger
Johnny May
George North
Brad Barritt
Jamie Roberts
Jonothan Joseph
Scott Williams
Antoney Watson
Alex Cuthbert
Mike Brown
Liam Williams

Those are the teams, that are probably the 1st XV, the Bold ones are who I think are realistically better than the other, when there both bold, that means there pretty much the same..

How you think Bigger is better than Ford i don't quite know, I would have said he isn't much better than Farrell as an all round player..

I think England have a better balance in the centre's, though overall are probably at about the same level..

Saying Wales have more options at back row, is slightly miss leading, considering i think you could only have Tipuric in there, otherwise theres no-one else.. Where as England have Vunipola, Haskell and even Burgess if you liked..

As a whole I think England just edge it, I just can't see your view on Wales being pretty much dominant of England over most of the park..

Are you having a laugh or is the fact that you have put Cuthbert in bold type and Warbs in non bold type, Cuthbert who is defensively inadequate and Warbs who is certainly one of possibly only 6 World class opensides playing currently the others being Tipuric, 2 All Blacks and 2 from Oz.
Strongly disagree with you re the centre pairings as well, also you may not have seen much of him but Liam Williams has everything as an attacking full back should he remain fit.
Paul James is 2nd choice to Melon who is a match for anyone at scrum time and is one of the most mobile props around whilst invaluable at the breakdown.
For me Lloyd Williams is our best option at scrum half, Eli Walker rather than Cuthbert.

- - - Updated - - -

TobesHodges said:
:lol: Matter of Opinion this one, Robshaw i think usually tops the stats, But warburton gets him self around the pitch much better the Robshaw..

And Tipuric is better than both of them.

j'nuh · Sep 10, 2015

Raggs said:
What game are you trying to play?

No thought at the game, just picking players who I think are the best in their respective opinions to get a sense of how close the two teams are. In my opinion, they are very close in terms of personnel.

valley commando said:
Paul James is 2nd choice to Melon who is a match for anyone at scrum time and is one of the most mobile props around whilst invaluable at the breakdown.

Paul James has been particularly unimpressive in the last year. So much so that I question whether he's the second best Wales have to offer. He's certainly not up to Marler/Vunipola's standards.

His whole game was based on him being a great scrummager, and he isn't any more. When I have seen him, he's been a bit of a penalty machine. Gethin, on the other hand, seems to want to emulate Simon Shaw.

chippieolamus · Sep 10, 2015

valley commando said:
Are you having a laugh or is the fact that you have put Cuthbert in bold type and Warbs in non bold type, Cuthbert who is defensively inadequate and Warbs who is certainly one of possibly only 6 World class opensides playing currently the others being Tipuric, 2 All Blacks and 2 from Oz.

Sean O'Brien? Although in terms of filling a 'traditional 7' role (perhaps Hooper doesn't fit into this mould) I agree, but Robshaw is certainly world class in the correct system. Here's my joint team (with subs), which I think Robshaw would work well in:

1) Marler (very close with Jenkins)
2) Owens
3) Cole
4) AWJ
5) Launchbury
6) Robshaw
7) Warburton
8) Morgan
9) Webb (Youngs if accounting for injuries)
10) Ford
11) May
12) Roberts
13) Joseph
14) North
15) Halfpenny

16) Youngs
17) Vunipola (impact)
18) Lee
19) Lawes
20) Vunipola (covers more than Faletau and Tipuric, close though)
21) Youngs (Wiggy if Youngs starts)
22) Biggar
23) L Williams

Starting XV is pretty equal, but I think England have a much better bench.

Maverick1987 · Sep 10, 2015

chippieolamus said:
Sean O'Brien? Although in terms of filling a 'traditional 7' role (perhaps Hooper doesn't fit into this mould) I agree, but Robshaw is certainly world class in the correct system. Here's my joint team (with subs), which I think Robshaw would work well in:

1) Marler (very close with Jenkins)
2) Owens
3) Cole
4) AWJ
5) Launchbury
6) Robshaw
7) Warburton
8) Morgan
9) Webb (Youngs if accounting for injuries)
10) Ford
11) May
12) Roberts
13) Joseph
14) North
15) Halfpenny

16) Youngs
17) Vunipola (impact)
18) Lee
19) Lawes
20) Vunipola (covers more than Faletau and Tipuric, close though)
21) Youngs (Wiggy if Youngs starts)
22) Biggar
23) L Williams

Starting XV is pretty equal, but I think England have a much better bench.

Yeh this is almost identical to what I'd say . Although I'd have Brooke's over Lee . I genuinely think we have 3 THs better than anyone Wales have . That's why Francis went to play for Wales . He's an English lad through and through but he felt like he wouldn't have a chance

TRF_Olyy · Sep 10, 2015

People still rate Jenkins? Have we gone back in time 4+ years?

He's the only prop I've heard of where the IRB have had to send a memo to referees cause of how **** he was being in the scrums.

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