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[2015 Six Nations] Wales vs England (Round 1)

Call me grudging but I still can't believe he ran into the bloody post rather than scored. But yes, that and the missed tackle aside, he was excellent, although I would also be intrigued as to how Ewers would do in the role. I think I'd rather wait until after the World Cup though - there's been too much chopping and changing already and I'd rather stick with Haskell for now. A pack of

Corbs / Youngs / Cole / Launchbury / Attwood / Haskell / Robshaw / Morgan (Webber, Marler, Wilson, Lawes, Croft/Vunipola) would, imo, look fairly threatening.

One thing I do like about Ewers is he theoretically offers the impact strong man role that we've grown so used to without giving up on flanker cover from 20 altogether...
 
Call me grudging but I still can't believe he ran into the bloody post rather than scored. But yes, that and the missed tackle aside, he was excellent.

he should have gone for the dive 'n slide but he was just travelling too fast to change any kind fo direction so i'm not too upset about it - though i did guffaw when it happened.

But his ball carrying throughout the game was excellent, he tackled non-stop and he linked pretty well. It was like having to Robshaws on the pitch (Robshaw by the way absolutely bossed that game - he was head and shoulders above Warburton and should have been MOTM.)
 
Amazing aint it... the traditional back row split works pretty well.*

*I know it's not entirely that, but we do actually have all of the skillset boxes ticked collectively.
 
Amazing aint it... the traditional back row split works pretty well.*

*I know it's not entirely that, but we do actually have all of the skillset boxes ticked collectively.

agreed, though I think the main thing is that our front five was just aggresive, our ball carrying was so much stronger that we actually got to play moving forward.
 
Same could be said of the second row/tight 5 too, we've missed out massively over the last couple of years by not selecting a proper TH lock.
I've said it ad nauseam, but it's not surprising in the least to me that our maul/scrum and tight carrying has improved out of sight since Attwood has been starting.
 
Is it just me , or does anyone now feel that after this last week , that fatland and all his silly games have now reached sell by date and are actually an embarrassment to rugby as a whole , and not just poor old Wales

Last nights shenanigans at the stadium with the lights and the delay in tunnel etc , its just pathetic

Wales need to bin fatland ASAP and start building for the 2019 rwc
 
Is it just me , or does anyone now feel that after this last week , that fatland and all his silly games have now reached sell by date and are actually an embarrassment to rugby as a whole , and not just poor old Wales

Last nights shenanigans at the stadium with the lights and the delay in tunnel etc , its just pathetic

Wales need to bin fatland ASAP and start building for the 2019 rwc

Said that last night my friend but perhaps not so eloquently!!!!
 
That has absolutely nothing to do with what I was saying. Well done.

It has everything to do with what I was saying. Ford has an undeserved reputation, did it really look like he struggled against the big Welsh runners or that his channel was one open to exploitation? Nope. However do you think May would have stepped in if rather than havign a reputation as a defensive liability, Ford had a reputation for being good enough to hold his own? May stepped in because he wrongly assumed Ford would not make the tackle. One has to ask how much of that was instinct and how much is due to the negative reputation that the likes of Ford have in defense?

Also people have complained about Gatland's stupid antics for ages but he has 5(?) years of contract left. Wales are stuck with him.
 
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Don't think Gatland had much to do with the pre-game show.

I don't mind the light show... the more casual viewers we can get exposed to the sport the better, and the casual supporters generally like lazer beams and dubstep.
Give it to them.
 
It has everything to do with what I was saying. Ford has an undeserved reputation, did it really look like he struggled against the big Welsh runners

Yes!

or that his channel was one open to exploitation? Nope.

yes!

However do you think May would have stepped in if rather than havign a reputation as a defensive liability, Ford had a reputation for being good enough to hold his own? May stepped in because he wrongly assumed Ford would not make the tackle. One has to ask how much of that was instinct and how much is due to the negative reputation that the likes of Ford have in defense?

That one incident has nothing to do with what people are pointing out about Fords defence, it's not about making the tackles. No one has said he doesn't tackle, infact pretty much everyone has said he makes his tackles, but everyone as said his tackles are passive when in the usual defensive line.

He gets walked backwards a number of times, AND England move him out to the wide channels when they settle into their transition defence. Go back and watch the game again, he's being protected at times, and THAT is fine.

But please don't' make out he's some brilliant defensive behemoth who's defence shouldn't be questioned because he makes a side on hit Faletau that still lets him offload, because he isn't.
 
If Wales have fatland contracted for another 5 years , then they are going to be unhappy 5 years for the welsh

I can see fatland losing the changing room , and the millenium long before his contract runs out
 
Yes!



yes!



That one incident has nothing to do with what people are pointing out about Fords defence, it's not about making the tackles. No one has said he doesn't tackle, infact pretty much everyone has said he makes his tackles, but everyone as said his tackles are passive when in the usual defensive line.

He gets walked backwards a number of times, AND England move him out to the wide channels when they settle into their transition defence. Go back and watch the game again, he's being protected at times, and THAT is fine.

But please don't' make out he's some brilliant defensive behemoth who's defence shouldn't be questioned because he makes a side on hit Faletau that still lets him offload, because he isn't.

NOWHERE do I state Ford is a defensive behemoth, all I state is that he is nowhere near the liability some like to believe he is, has made more than 1 try saving tackle, was NOT that bad against the big Welsh runners and offers plenty in attack. Also you seem to be ignoring that weak defense was levelled as a reason not to use Joseph (again an undeserved reputation). No ford won't smash back the big guys and nowhere did I even come close to making such a claim. The closest I said was he doesn't struggle that much when it comes to gainline tackling nor is it a weakness England need to worry about. Fact is the Bath backs can do what needs to be done in defense so that isn't an argument against them being selected and can offer more in attack.
 
Is it just me , or does anyone now feel that after this last week , that fatland and all his silly games have now reached sell by date and are actually an embarrassment to rugby as a whole , and not just poor old Wales

Last nights shenanigans at the stadium with the lights and the delay in tunnel etc , its just pathetic

Wales need to bin fatland ASAP and start building for the 2019 rwc

Did you accidentally stumble upon these forums, whilst mashing the keyboard?
My god, the Yahoo eurosport comment pages must be missing you, so I advise you head straight back over there and leave the 'non-hard of thinking' alone.
 
Lol , ok, please continue as you are... Under fatland , the welsh have become / are becoming a laughing stock...


Lets see what happens next week, because I believe the scots might want to respond to last year's humiliation , and a bad result for Wales, and we will see a lot of things unfold...

All the best, lol
 
Lol , ok, please continue as you are... Under fatland , the welsh have become / are becoming a laughing stock...


Lets see what happens next week, because I believe the scots might want to respond to last year's humiliation , and a bad result for Wales, and we will see a lot of things unfold...

All the best, lol

Right so an admittedly very poor performance vs England, cancels 2 'Slams, a Championship and being within inches of a RWC final, thus making us a laughing stock? Nice logic.

I'm not saying saying that Garland is perfect. The mind games are daft and we didn't need the over blown pre match light show, plus he has an annoying habit of ignoring the in form players.

However, it is undeniable that Gatland has had an overall positive effect on Wales.

Wales do need to take a long, hard look at their game and most importantly - figure out a Plan B, but now is not the time to be sacking off coaches.

You have to remember - 2011 6N started off with a poor performance and a loss to England.
 
Listen up ****wit, you are a laughing stock because of the antics of your coaching team


It is nothing to do with your rugby, but that is not too far away
 
Yay! Another defence debate! Well, this one is easily settled... *opens iPlayer*

First five minutes: Ford only comes into shot as a defensive player twice, maybe three times. The first - not sure it's definitely him - is when a small dark haired figure trots into shot from a covering position and joins the opposite end of the defensive line to the action just before May's early penalty. The second is when he comes into shot from a cover position ready to tackle a break down the wing when North is whistled back for forwards. The third is just at the end of the period, Ford is covering inside the 22 on the right hand side and takes a kick intended for touch.

Second five minutes: Ford makes his first tackle on Faletau from that scrum. Ford is stood behind the scrum prior to the scrum. He takes Faletau to ground but is unable to wrap Faletau's arms or change his momentum sufficiently and therefore he is able to offload. A try is scored.

There's probably, in fairness, a very short list of backs in international rugby that would reliably get a different outcome. But we needed a different outcome and we didn't get one; it is a prime example of where a tackle alone is not enough; of where a back who is only capable of taking his man and not smashing him is a weakness.

It is absolutely absurd to say that May only stepped in because Ford has a reputation as not defensively sound. It is an everyday mistake that can be seen in any try compilation (NZ's winning try against Ireland in 2013 is one). Ironically, if he'd fully distrusted Ford and committed to the tackle as well, Faletau probably wouldn't have got that offload away and there's no try.

Third five minutes - Nought doing

Fourth five minutes - We're just before 18 minutes and Wales have a lineout. England advance quickly but then pause in front of an array of Welsh runners. Jiffy Jnr is the man and he goes straight at Ford and straight through Ford. The tackle is eventually made - although I suspect that had more to do with Robshaw, who tackled Davies side on, particularly as Ford is leaning on the ensuing ruck - but in any case, the tackle ends roughly 5m after it begins.

40 seconds and a bit of kick tennis later, Ford hustles back to cover Watson's position and collects a good kick before any real damage could be done.

Fifth five minutes - He's ruck inspecting again, right at the beginning, I'd like to think Farrell will tell him to get out and fan round in future. 21 minutes and a half in, Ford gets another chance to defend from a lineout. It's a short lineout so Ford is a little bit out, with the forwards filling in inside him. Warburton receives a short pass and takes it straight at Ford and is taken to earth 2m after where the tackle starts. The move goes out towards the left wing but as it comes back towards the right, we see Ford and Youngs stood on the far right with only Watson outside them. We can actually see Youngs run into the line from a sweeper position, picking the spot inside Ford.

Sixth five minutes - Saw nothing

Seventh five minutes - Pause the screen at 32.30. You should have an England kick-chase consisting of Vunipola, Burrell, Joseph and May in view. Considering that it was Youngs who cleared it, I don't think it unfair to wonder why Ford isn't in that chase. It was, incidentally, an awful chase and led directly to a Welsh shot at sticks.

Nothing else really, although I feel like mentioning in passing it's really fun to watch Ben Youngs launch himself at Roberts and then bounce straight back onto his feet to kick the ball out of the ruck.

Eighth five minutes - Or 35-40. Probably should have called it that. Ford is in shot for the kick chase in the 39th minute but after a phase or two, he abandons his guard position and moves across the defensive line as others filter in. As he next comes into camera view, at 39.16, there's now 7 players between him and where that ruck was. As we reach the end of the half he appears once again for a defensive intervention when the Welsh break and Ford is once again covering the right wing. He might have got a tackle in for the statistics there, I'm not sure, confused group effort.


I cannot guarantee I got everything but I was watching pretty close and what I saw, I've recorded. The second half will have to wait, on account of me being terminally bored, but so far the jury is hearing persuasive evidence the case brought to us by Mr GN10 esq is in fact truthful in its particulars. Ford gave away metres in the head on confrontation twice and he most definitely seems to be being hidden away from the action.

Btw - Joseph's ruck technique is great.

Look; I don't think anyone has said that George Ford is the new Ronan O'Gara, or that he shouldn't play. But there is a clear issue that in the modern game, just making the tackle is not enough. Ford just makes the tackle on Faletau and Wales score. Yeah, sure, there was a mistake before and after that, but that doesn't clear Ford from blame. Ford just doesn't look capable of doing anything other than just making the tackle and, sorry, that is a weakness. It doesn't mean he shouldn't be considered if his strengths outweigh it, as they do. But to deny it is a weakness is to deny reality. And, on the current evidence, to say he dispelled the notion that he has a weakness is there is just as much against reality.
 
There's probably, in fairness, a very short list of backs in international rugby that would reliably get a different outcome. But we needed a different outcome and we didn't get one; it is a prime example of where a tackle alone is not enough; of where a back who is only capable of taking his man and not smashing him is a weakness.

Surely that's a massive black mark against Haskell then?

If you're going to be critical of a FH not dominating a number 8 in a tackle then you have to absolutely nail a blindside flanker for not completing a tackle on a number 8 making a blindside break.
He has two jobs at that scrum, to push and to smash anyone who comes down his channel.

Look; I don't think anyone has said that George Ford is the new Ronan O'Gara, or that he shouldn't play. But there is a clear issue that in the modern game, just making the tackle is not enough. Ford just makes the tackle on Faletau and Wales score. Yeah, sure, there was a mistake before and after that, but that doesn't clear Ford from blame. Ford just doesn't look capable of doing anything other than just making the tackle and, sorry, that is a weakness. It doesn't mean he shouldn't be considered if his strengths outweigh it, as they do. But to deny it is a weakness is to deny reality. And, on the current evidence, to say he dispelled the notion that he has a weakness is there is just as much against reality.

I don't think anyone is disputing that, or saying that losing ground in contact isn't a weakness.

But until the net result of his defensive qualities gets to the point where it cancels out or overrides his positive traits then it's completely redundant calling him out on it.
Unless we are talking about positional or technical flaws, but we aren't, for the most part... people are just reiterating the fact that he's tiny - which unfortunately, he can't do much about.
 
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Isn't the real question when it comes to the defensive ability of backs is lack of ability in defence made up by their clear ability in attack? I would suggest the Bath backs score a lot more then they let be scored on them from their lack of ability. If the net gain is higher doesn't worry about the defence as much. After all in the end it leads to the kind rugby we all want to see (ie more tries) whilst your side still winning.

As for Ford he's made at least one clear try saving tackle in recent weeks whilst not the best defensively I suggest he offers way more in attack than the other options.

In addition that analysis is of the first half before England really settled as a defensive unit, in the second half Wales could barely make over the gainline and were regularly driven back. If your defensive unit as a whole is capable of that it doesn't matter as much if one or two players aren't the great backline defender in the country.
 
Surely that's a massive black mark against Haskell then?

If you're going to be critical of a FH not dominating a number 8 in a tackle then you have to absolutely nail a blindside flanker for not completing a tackle on a number 8 making a blindside break.
He has two jobs at that scrum, to push and to smash anyone who comes down his channel.

No argument from me - but having criticised him for it in 4 different posts in this thread already, I didn't see any need to raise it for the 5th time in a post specifically about Ford.

I don't think anyone is disputing that, or saying that losing ground in contact isn't a weakness.

If ragerancher isn't saying that, I have no clue what he is saying. I don't think anyone really mentioned Ford's defence until his post about the game proving critics wrong. I'm happy to keep my criticism quiet as long as Ford contributes more than he gives away - but, well, if someone starts an argument, I'm terribly weak-willed about that sort of thing :p
 
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