[2017 RBS Six Nations] Round 1: Scotland vs. Ireland (04/02/2017)

[munstermuffin]

If Trimble out every big call would've been made for Schmidt.
I don't know Alpha as Keatley may be there.

 

[Amiga500]

Trimble should not have been in squad, form no where near the level.

It will be interesting from an Ulster perspective to see how Jackson goes behind a pack that's not in reverse and with back moves not coached by Neil Doak.

Due to the other options in the back row, losing POM isn't the issue it might have once been.

Yeah, you'd now have to wonder will Sexton make the next World Cup - and if he does - exactly what shape he'll be in. Would it make sense to retire him from first starter now and focus on developing the alternatives?

 

[munstermuffin]

Trimble should not have been in squad, form no where near the level.

It will be interesting from an Ulster perspective to see how Jackson goes behind a pack that's not in reverse and with back moves not coached by Neil Doak.

Due to the other options in the back row, losing POM isn't the issue it might have once been.

Yeah, you'd now have to wonder will Sexton make the next World Cup - and if he does - exactly what shape he'll be in. Would it make sense to retire him from first starter now and focus on developing the alternatives?

Trimble form hasn't been great BUT like Jackson they've been in a team where confidence drained

 

[Amiga500]

Trimble form hasn't been great BUT like Jackson they've been in a team where confidence drained

I know, I'm not impressed with the quality of their work - regardless of the flashy bits which make "highlights" reels. Jackson isn't carrying to the line much any more and is very passive. Trimble doesn't have the same speed & energy he had a year ago - its now getting noticeable to the point even the media will pick up on it - much like Bowe started to badly slow up a couple of years ago and was ropey enough before the injuries.

 

[munstermuffin]

I know, I'm not impressed with the quality of their work - regardless of the flashy bits which make "highlights" reels. Jackson isn't carrying to the line much any more and is very passive. Trimble doesn't have the same speed & energy he had a year ago - its now getting noticeable to the point even the media will pick up on it - much like Bowe started to badly slow up a couple of years ago and was ropey enough before the injuries.

I 100% agree but will be happy to give benefit of doubt for game or 2

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

If Jackson wants to get ahead of Sexton he needs to cut out costly errors like his kick out on the full v Aus or intercepted pass v SA and improve his running game. He's a great passer and above average tactical kicker but he is too weak in the aforementioned areas to get ahead of a fit Sexton.

The more I think about it the decision to bring Keatley over Madigan is so stupid. Mads has been in camps more recently has plenty of minutes in top of the table Top 14 and european cup matches and is undoubtedly a better player. By all means be harsh on foreign based players but don't bring dead weight in in their stead.

 

[munstermuffin]

If Jackson wants to get ahead of Sexton he needs to cut out costly errors like his kick out on the full v Aus or intercepted pass v SA and improve his running game. He's a great passer and above average tactical kicker but he is too weak in the aforementioned areas to get ahead of a fit Sexton.

The more I think about it the decision to bring Keatley over Madigan is so stupid. Mads has been in camps more recently has plenty of minutes in top of the table Top 14 and european cup matches and is undoubtedly a better player. By all means be harsh on foreign based players but don't bring dead weight in in their stead.

Actually Keatley has been in more recently. As he attendet before Xmas. But equally the message was clear when he left about it effectively stalling international chances. I'd say he's a better 10 but not good enough to be exception. The point being unless your worldclass if you move abroad you are not going to be considered.

 

[Saint4805]

Get what you are saying but equally he knows he's gone after so may be ruthless

Fair point but dropping Laidlaw would be quite a U turn after retaining him as skipper. Cotter probably knows that he'll be depending on Laidlaw's goal kicking given that most of our games will be fairly tight. I would be disappointed if Price didn't get the nod for the Italy game.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Actually Keatley has been in more recently. As he attendet before Xmas. But equally the message was clear when he left about it effectively stalling international chances. I'd say he's a better 10 but not good enough to be exception. The point being unless your worldclass if you move abroad you are not going to be considered.

Was basing that off camps in the international windows, its still what, 2 days two months ago vs an entire month last summer?
2nd point is ridiculous by the IRFU considering that if PJ goes down early we have at best a guy who is average in the Pro 12 playing a test match. They say they do what's best for the national side, Madigan is what's best here.

 

[Groundhog]

Madigan's struggling to establish himself as the first choice ten, he's not started the games Bordeaux give a hoot about recently. So far from ideal but I have faith in Keatley if Schmidt picks him. Just like I'll have faith in Kearney who can't get past a 34 year old at Leinster.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Fair point but dropping Laidlaw would be quite a U turn after retaining him as skipper. Cotter probably knows that he'll be depending on Laidlaw's goal kicking given that most of our games will be fairly tight.

That's logic equal to thinking that because rich people snort cocaine that you'll get rich if you snort cocaine! Laidlaw's kicking in tight games is important because you can't score as many tries as you should, which is very much due to Laidlaw!

 

[munstermuffin]

Was basing that off camps in the international windows, its still what, 2 days two months ago vs an entire month last summer?
2nd point is ridiculous by the IRFU considering that if PJ goes down early we have at best a guy who is average in the Pro 12 playing a test match. They say they do what's best for the national side, Madigan is what's best here.

May be ridiculous but IRFU are right.
I'd say Madigan isn't a great 10 and again don't think he's good enough to be exceptional case. You might think different which is fair enough but alot would think like me and alot like you.
Also factor in cost of Keatley in camp is â'¬0. Cost of Madigan is around a month salary of Bordeaux wages. As I'd say you think Madigan is best but as a 10 alot would disagree. I'm not saying Keatley is either

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Madigan's struggling to establish himself as the first choice ten, he's not started the games Bordeaux give a hoot about recently. So far from ideal but I have faith in Keatley if Schmidt picks him. Just like I'll have faith in Kearney who can't get past a 34 year old at Leinster.

Harder to establish yourself in Bordeaux than Munster though and I doubt its Schmidt's decision... Kearmey not getting picked ahead of the best back three player in the country (Piatau incl.) and the only better option serving the team better on the wing also is not a fair comparison. I find it hard to believe Keatley is the best option within the country to be honest and I'd be very nervous if he gets any inportant game time.

- - - Updated - - -

May be ridiculous but IRFU are right.
I'd say Madigan isn't a great 10 and again don't think he's good enough to be exceptional case. You might think different which is fair enough but alot would think like me and alot like you.
Also factor in cost of Keatley in camp is €0. Cost of Madigan is around a month salary of Bordeaux wages. As I'd say you think Madigan is best but as a 10 alot would disagree. I'm not saying Keatley is either

During an international window? The IRFU would pay nothing.

 

[Saint4805]

That's logic equal to thinking that because rich people snort cocaine that you'll get rich if you snort cocaine! Laidlaw's kicking in tight games is important because you can't score as many tries as you should, which is very much due to Laidlaw!

I don't accept that. We don't have an issue scoring tries even with Laidlaw in the side as most of our tries are created by Russell and Hogg. Glasgow even with Price at 9 couldn't get through a stubborn Munster defence so what would be so different at international level? We'll still get penalties and Laidlaw will get points on the board and it's difficult to say if his absence (from a goal kicking perspective) would be more than compensated by a dynamic 9. Our main issue is that the top sides know the tactics are required to beat us and generally use their stronger forwards to suffocate ours and stop our backs getting ball.

 

[munstermuffin]

Harder to establish yourself in Bordeaux than Munster though and I doubt its Schmidt's decision... Kearmey not getting picked ahead of the best back three player in the country (Piatau incl.) and the only better option serving the team better on the wing also is not a fair comparison. I find it hard to believe Keatley is the best option within the country to be honest and I'd be very nervous if he gets any inportant game time.

- - - Updated - - -



During an international window? The IRFU would pay nothing.

Oh they do. Look at finances from Sextons days in France. Also they pay travel.

On Keatley he isn't a 10 deserving but as you say it's harder for Madigan to establish but fact is he hasn't at any time in his career established himself in any team as a 10. I think he's a smashing player just not a top international 10.
You say you find it hard to believe Keatley best option in country. Its fair to argue Carty or Byrne and I'd understand it as they're in this country. As I said you might not agree but when Madigan left he knew the deal so we move on. Plenty more before him and more deserving suffered same faith

 

[Groundhog]

Harder to establish yourself in Bordeaux than Munster though and I doubt its Schmidt's decision... Kearmey not getting picked ahead of the best back three player in the country (Piatau incl.) and the only better option serving the team better on the wing also is not a fair comparison. I find it hard to believe Keatley is the best option within the country to be honest and I'd be very nervous if he gets any inportant game time.

- - - Updated - - -



During an international window? The IRFU would pay nothing.

Yeah and once again Madigan has everything in front of him to start at his club but can't rise to the competition. He's being beaten out by a 23 year old New Zealander when he should be in his prime. Does it make him worse than Keatley? No, but he's not worth bringing back, especially as he wasn't even available last week. He wouldn't have even come into their contingency planning. And not really relevant at this stage because I mispoke I'll admit Kearney is in ok form, just like Keatley in his cameos, but you're living in a dream world if you think Nacewa is better than Piatau. Put Piatau in a team with a pack, and in form players around him where he doesn't have to reinvent the wheel and see where he gets. Nacewa is extremely skilled, but has nowhere near the pace or ability to break the game open.

 

[Holmesy]

As I said in the Ireland Thread:

I would say that Jacksons just as good a player but Sextons leadership and organisation that gives him the edge. With Jacko at ten in the Australia game our backs were ignored at many moments and the tries were more individual moments of brilliance than tactical domination.
Obviously Jacko has they physical edge but Sexton brings a great mental game and the players surely have great faith in him.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Mads was first choice until injury forced him out and he's been back about a month behind an in form 10 but ahead of Beauxis and is having a more impressive season than Keatley. Even forgettibg this iirc Keatley's last game in green was in Rome and we failed to score a try while he was on the pitch, Mads has loads of better performances at intl level since and hasn't deteriorated into mediocrity bordering on laughibg stick at times like Keatley. I'm all for teaching lads who go abroad a lesson but surely going from 2nd choice 10 to 4th choice in a matter of months since announcing the move is lesson enough? Especially considering, if they're both 1st choice place kicker, Madigan is a better option than Carbery. The other notable example is Marty Moore losing out on a squad place to a player who isn't as good as him, that's not detrimental to our chances of winning a test match though so its fine, Keatley or Scannell playing 20+ minutes at 10 ahead of Madigan is very much detrimental to thise chances and it could come to that easily.

He hasn't got the pace I'll give you that but passing, kicking, 'game breaking', defending and counter attacking he's at worst Piatau's equal. I, and every other Leinster fan, wouldn't dream of swapping Piatau for Nacewa until the end of 2018 but I'd wager that looking at both players careers and form this year Isa would tempt mamy an Ulster fan. Isa is as good a rugby player as Brian O'Driscoll was Piatau doesn't really come too close.

 

[munstermuffin]

I'd disagree on Moore as Ryan and Bealham have been unreal.
As for Madigan the thing is he hasn't established himself as main man at any stage on his career for whatever reason the fact is he hasn't. Also you rate him higly and alot will agree but equally alot will disagree and say he's not a top 10 and exceptional enough

When he left he knew what the deal was and took the offer abroad. Mo problem so let's move on and deal with what's available

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

If we want to keep Ireland's top players in Ireland, then it's absolutely the right decision not to pick players for the international team if they're playing for a club offshore. Johnny Sexton was an exception because he was that far ahead of his competitors. Conor Murray is perhaps the only current international who falls into the same category as Sexton did.

Ian Madigan isn't as good as Paddy Jackson nor does he have as high a ceiling as Joey Carbery. Given the fact that he's playing in France, I'd seriously consider selecting Jack Carty and Ross Byrne ahead of him too.

Marty Moore is a very good player but right now he isn't better than Finlay Bealham in open play or John Ryan at scrummaging. It's absolutely the correct call not to pick him.