[2020 Six Nations] England vs Wales (07/03/20)

[Vieux Talonneur]

But stats are never the full story. Watching that game it never felt like Ireland ever had a chance. At no point did I hold my breath and worry, and I'd imagine most other England fans were the same. In fact the stadium went pretty quiet towards the end because the result had been clear for some time. And in fact, if anything, the stats show how strong and dominant England can be. To have stats that look pretty shaky and still put out a strong performance against one of the worlds best teams says a lot I think.

and yes the Irish half backs had a shocker, but that was as much down to English pressure rattling them as anything. Jones clearly identifies the weakness and targeted it hard with excellent results. I just hope he can do the same with Wales.

Hold on. Ire's wounds were mainly self inflicted or bad luck. In our "dominant" first half you'd have backed Sexton to have prevented Ford's try 9.5 times out of 10, that's 7 points. And Sexton badly shanked a pen he'd usually kick in his sleep. That's all within the first 14 minutes and a 10 point swing to Eng that you'll take if offered but wouldn't expect; if those hadn't happened Ire may have grown in confidence and the game taken a different path. Sexton also badly shanked one in the 2nd half, but to me that was Sexton having a bad day at the office, not going to pieces under a Jones master plan. He's a declining player as is Murray.

Our games in Ire last year & the semi were truly dominant foot on the throat jobs. Nothing we've done in the 4 games since remotely compares in ruthlessness, intensity or effectiveness.

I would like us to ratchet it up several notches against Wal. We might do that but odds are we'll be rinsing and repeating conversations about slow scrum halves and out of position locks and opensides.

 

[Amiga500]

Can we add a poll to this thread please?

Which aspect of the referee's performance will the Welsh blame for any defeat:

1. Breakdown
2. Scrum
3. Maul
4. Offside
5. All of the above

The winner gets a tin of Jeyes Fluid*.


*might not be true.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Can we add a poll to this thread please?

Which aspect of the referee's performance will the Welsh blame for any defeat:

1. Breakdown - 7-10 point loss
2. Scrum - 3-6 point loss
3. Maul - <2 point loss
4. Offside - >10 point loss
5. All of the above - will say the ref favoured England in case of victory.

The winner gets a tin of Jeyes Fluid*.


*might not be true.

 

[martinspoonboy1]

Can we add a poll to this thread please?

Which aspect of the referee's performance will the Welsh blame for any defeat:

1. Breakdown
2. Scrum
3. Maul
4. Offside
5. All of the above

The winner gets a tin of Jeyes Fluid*.


*might not be true.

The one that got me a few years back was the North having/not having his foot in touch at the end of the game and claiming that that was the reason they lost. Like, he's surrounded by 4 players outside the 22. Being in the field of play when the 80 is up doesn't automatically mean a 7 pointer.

 

[Rinkadink]

These are elite athletes and it doesn't take much to through them off course. I don't think the impact of a lost WC and then the cheating scandal at Saracens can be underestimated. Imagine how the changing room felt in the England camp when the news broke that several of the players had essentially been cheating for two seasons?!

Keep in mind the news broke in the week leading up to the world cup final. Food for thought IMO, and could well have cost England the final or at least them making a better game of it.

Anyway, Eddie to pick a more traditional (read; more players in correct positions) side and a 5/3 split but a wonky game plan/unable to execute and Wales capitalise on this to get the W. If bizarre selections again anything could happen, Ireland weren't at the races at all so hopefully a proper test of it this time out.

 

[Not Eddie Jones]

Hold on. Ire's wounds were mainly self inflicted or bad luck. In our "dominant" first half you'd have backed Sexton to have prevented Ford's try 9.5 times out of 10, that's 7 points. And Sexton badly shanked a pen he'd usually kick in his sleep. That's all within the first 14 minutes and a 10 point swing to Eng that you'll take if offered but wouldn't expect; if those hadn't happened Ire may have grown in confidence and the game taken a different path. Sexton also badly shanked one in the 2nd half, but to me that was Sexton having a bad day at the office, not going to pieces under a Jones master plan. He's a declining player as is Murray.

Our games in Ire last year & the semi were truly dominant foot on the throat jobs. Nothing we've done in the 4 games since remotely compares in ruthlessness, intensity or effectiveness.

I would like us to ratchet it up several notches against Wal. We might do that but odds are we'll be rinsing and repeating conversations about slow scrum halves and out of position locks and opensides.

The trouble with 'if this had happened, then this would have happened' is that it goes both ways. If Sexton had prevented Ford's try, then it would have been a 5m scrum to England. Our scrum was driving theirs backwards all day and a good source of penalties, so maybe we would have then had a pushover try or a penalty try. You can go on forever with that coulda, woulda stuff. Yes, Sexton shanked a kick he'd normally make, but nothing in the game is automatic. Placekicking is a skill and you have to execute on the day. Sexton didn't and Farrell did. That's what makes sport unpredictable.

And talking of unpredictable, there's little in rugby more unpredictable than the ball. It's shape makes it bounce in weird ways, and that's very much a part of the game and part of the kick-through tactic. Those kicks always have a chance of creating tries in the way they did against Ireland, it's not just dumb luck that Sexton couldn't control it, it's a rugby ball, its a little bundle of chaos we let loose behind their defence.

What I saw was our scrum dominating theirs, our maul being an effective weapon, our lineout stealing their ball, our players consistently knocking theirs backwards in the tackle, our players consistently getting across the gainline ball-in-hand, our tactical kicking game spot on, Itoje's beautiful rip. At halftime we led 17-0. When 80 minutes rolled around we led 24-5. Even with their clock-in-the-red try making the scoreline a little closer, we still won by 12 points, the same winning margin in our dominant win over NZ.

Were England perfect? No. Can they improve? Absolutely. Did they have total control of Ireland throughout that match? Yes, yes they did.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

The one that got me a few years back was the North having/not having his foot in touch at the end of the game and claiming that that was the reason they lost. Like, he's surrounded by 4 players outside the 22. Being in the field of play when the 80 is up doesn't automatically mean a 7 pointer.

But remember he got the ball away to Rhys Webb, who was about 1-2m from the sideline and about to run directly into a lock and flanker with 2 more players also nearby, but the fact he trotted past them after the linesman raised his flag and they therefore made no attempt to tackle him proves it was a guaranteed try! No way they would have just wrapped him up and bundled him into touch...

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

The trouble with 'if this had happened, then this would have happened' is that it goes both ways. If Sexton had prevented Ford's try, then it would have been a 5m scrum to England. Our scrum was driving theirs backwards all day and a good source of penalties, so maybe we would have then had a pushover try or a penalty try. You can go on forever with that coulda, woulda stuff. Yes, Sexton shanked a kick he'd normally make, but nothing in the game is automatic. Placekicking is a skill and you have to execute on the day. Sexton didn't and Farrell did. That's what makes sport unpredictable.

And talking of unpredictable, there's little in rugby more unpredictable than the ball. It's shape makes it bounce in weird ways, and that's very much a part of the game and part of the kick-through tactic. Those kicks always have a chance of creating tries in the way they did against Ireland, it's not just dumb luck that Sexton couldn't control it, it's a rugby ball, its a little bundle of chaos we let loose behind their defence.

What I saw was our scrum dominating theirs, our maul being an effective weapon, our lineout stealing their ball, our players consistently knocking theirs backwards in the tackle, our players consistently getting across the gainline ball-in-hand, our tactical kicking game spot on, Itoje's beautiful rip. At halftime we led 17-0. When 80 minutes rolled around we led 24-5. Even with their clock-in-the-red try making the scoreline a little closer, we still won by 12 points, the same winning margin in our dominant win over NZ.

Were England perfect? No. Can they improve? Absolutely. Did they have total control of Ireland throughout that match? Yes, yes they did.

I've given you a like for a well argued post. But to my mind it was still an ordinary performance for a home game against a team that most people agree ain't what it used to be.

Is it too early in the build up for someone to start with the sheep gags? All very civilised so far!

 

[big ginger 8]

The trouble with 'if this had happened, then this would have happened' is that it goes both ways. If Sexton had prevented Ford's try, then it would have been a 5m scrum to England. Our scrum was driving theirs backwards all day and a good source of penalties, so maybe we would have then had a pushover try or a penalty try. You can go on forever with that coulda, woulda stuff. Yes, Sexton shanked a kick he'd normally make, but nothing in the game is automatic. Placekicking is a skill and you have to execute on the day. Sexton didn't and Farrell did. That's what makes sport unpredictable.

And talking of unpredictable, there's little in rugby more unpredictable than the ball. It's shape makes it bounce in weird ways, and that's very much a part of the game and part of the kick-through tactic. Those kicks always have a chance of creating tries in the way they did against Ireland, it's not just dumb luck that Sexton couldn't control it, it's a rugby ball, its a little bundle of chaos we let loose behind their defence.

What I saw was our scrum dominating theirs, our maul being an effective weapon, our lineout stealing their ball, our players consistently knocking theirs backwards in the tackle, our players consistently getting across the gainline ball-in-hand, our tactical kicking game spot on, Itoje's beautiful rip. At halftime we led 17-0. When 80 minutes rolled around we led 24-5. Even with their clock-in-the-red try making the scoreline a little closer, we still won by 12 points, the same winning margin in our dominant win over NZ.

Were England perfect? No. Can they improve? Absolutely. Did they have total control of Ireland throughout that match? Yes, yes they did.

While England had overall control of the match they didn't dominate the scrum until after Furlong went off. In fact the scrum was pretty much the only good thing from us in the first half.

 

[Tooting Carmen]

England to win by 10, with Wales' injuries and all. That said, Wales can spring up surprises at times against England.

 

[Tooting Carmen]

It really does lend credence to the old cliche that if Wales played against the rest of the world the way they play against us, they'd be world champions several times over!

Who has said that?

 

[Not Eddie Jones]

I've given you a like for a well argued post. But to my mind it was still an ordinary performance for a home game against a team that most people agree ain't what it used to be.

Very kind, sir. I do see where you're coming from. People keep saying that the NZ performance was one of the best England performances ever, but to my mind we had too many attacks come to grief through knock-ons, a try wiped out for a handling error, another wiped out for an obstruction penalty, and NZ's only try came from a horrendous mess of an England lineout. A good performance, certainly, but far from the best ever to my mind.

Let's hope that they play like gods against Wales, and then these boards will fall silent as there is simply nothing to debate because England were just so awesome, so awesome that even WOL admits England were the better team on the day!

 

[Not Eddie Jones]

While England had overall control of the match they didn't dominate the scrum until after Furlong went off. In fact the scrum was pretty much the only good thing from us in the first half.

I seem to remember Furlong struggling against Marler. Could be wrong without going back and rewatching the whole thing, but I remember thinking during the match that Furlong isn't the dominant player he was back in 2018.

 

[Not Eddie Jones]

Who has said that?

I've seen it on numerous comments boards over the years.

 

[Which Tyler]

People keep saying that the NZ performance was one of the best England performances ever, but to my mind we had too many attacks come to grief through knock-ons, a try wiped out for a handling error, another wiped out for an obstruction penalty, and NZ's only try came from a horrendous mess of an England lineout. A good performance, certainly, but far from the best ever to my mind.

I've personally never gone as far as "best ever" - but "amongst the top 3 performances".
However - "best ever" doesn't mean "perfection" which is impossible.

If you don't rate it as "best ever" then - which ones were better? Bearing in mind the quality of the opposition, the pressure on the match, playing conditions etc etc etc

 

[Lé Ddanno]

England starting XV
15 Elliot Daly (Saracens, 42 caps)
14 Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby, 42 caps)
13 Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers, 42 caps)
12 Owen Farrell (Saracens, 82 caps) C
11 Jonny May (Leicester Tigers, 55 caps)
10 George Ford (Leicester Tigers, 68 caps)
9 Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 98 caps)
1 Joe Marler (Harlequins, 70 caps)
2 Jamie George (Saracens, 48 caps)
3 Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins, 34 caps)
4 Maro Itoje (Saracens, 37 caps)
5 George Kruis (Saracens, 44 caps)
6 Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 84 caps)
7 Mark Wilson (Sale Sharks, 18 caps)
8 Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, 22 caps)

Finishers
16 Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs, 23 caps)
17 Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers, 17 caps)
18 Will Stuart (Bath Rugby, 2 caps)
19 Joe Launchbury (Wasps, 64 caps)
20 Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby, 14 caps)
21 Ben Earl (Saracens, 2 caps)
22 Willi Heinz (Gloucester Rugby, 12 caps)
23 Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 28 caps)

The Eddie's not for turning.

 

[Wells]

England team to face Wales:

Daly; Watson, Tuilagi, Farrell, May; Ford, Youngs; Marler, George, Sinckler, Itoje, Kruis, Lawes, Wilson, Curry

Replacements: Cowan-Dickie, Genge, Stuart, Launchbury, Ewels, Earl, Heinz, Slade

long time lurker finally joining in

see Eddie's still continuing the back row trolling!


Doh! Beaten to the punch

 

[Not Eddie Jones]

I've personally never gone as far as "best ever" - but "amongst the top 3 performances".
However - "best ever" doesn't mean "perfection" which is impossible.

If you don't rate it as "best ever" then - which ones were better? Bearing in mind the quality of the opposition, the pressure on the match, playing conditions etc etc etc

Er, I don't know. It just felt to me that it was far too error-strewn a performance to be among our best. I suppose, off the top of my head, when I think of great England performances, I think of our first ever win in Oz, 25-14 in the summer of 2003, dominating them in their own back yard when they were world and Tri-Nations champions and we'd never won a game there in history. Or the Grand Slam game in Dublin in 2003 when both England and Ireland entered the game 4 from 4 and England had a terrible recent history of blowing slams on the final day, yet we annihilated Ireland 42-6. And I thought the 2012 win over NZ was a better performance: a dominant first half from England, then when NZ scored 2 quick tries to get right back in the game, England reeled off 3 quick tries to take it away from them again. But I do get your point: the 2012 win was a friendly against the world champs, the 2019 win was a WC semi against the two-time world champs.

Hang on, have I actually talked myself into agreeing with you?

 

[TRF_Olyy]

6 Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 84 caps)
7 Mark Wilson (Sale Sharks, 18 caps)
8 Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, 22 caps)

Erm

 

[Jashay]

Underhill must be injured, right? Otherwise I'm astounded that he didn't make the cut