• Help Support The Rugby Forum :

A Political Thread pt. 2

Not Mike Brown's Sock

First XV
TRF Legend
Joined
Dec 22, 2014
Messages
2,120
Reaction score
654
Country Flag

UK

Club or Nation

Harlequins

@noah_jo I will agree that socio-economic issues are also a major factor and many issues can be linked to poverty and lack of opportunity. Certainly America and Britain as well as other countries need to approach systemic racism as a national issue that pervades almost every aspect of society, rather than individual organisations. I'm currently reading ---------- White culture and ideals are still mainly considered the norm in how people should act and behave. Having a white sounding name gives you more opportunities when applying for jobs. Anyway I have some issues with your responses.

There is still structural/systemic racism here. Yes America has an issue with guns, but police are more likely to draw a taser/weapon on black people compared with white people. Already the officers will unconsciously be on the defensive not because of the situation, but because of the colour of his skin. This makes chances of shooting more likely for black people, which is a product of systemic racism. How this view of black suspects has been allowed to develop is related to other wider issues such as socio-economic problems, but the fact that police will approach a situation differently because of the colour of someone's skin is racist. This is also linked to the abysmal amount of training police receive in America.
This was the definition difference that I laid out in my posts talking to @Welsh Exile - statistically speaking, an officer is much more likely to be at risk if they pull over a black person, purely by virtue of stats alone. It's an end product to a deep issue that culminates in higher than should be expected violent crime rates for black people, and thus a more "agressive" police response in general. It is not itself the issue, but representative of a deeper one.

I'm pretty sure we don't actually disagree on the substance here, it is simply the framing that is different.

If you are suggesting that no risk assesment should ever be made on anything based on statistics if they correspond to race, gender or any other physical characteristics, then that is definetly going to do far more harm than good.
You use of stats here is flawed. Yes less black people were shot, but black people make up only 13% of the national population compared --------- https://www.bmj.com/company/newsroo...in-us-more-than-3-times-as-high-as-in-whites/

That's not quite the point I was making, but re-reading it I can see how it may have been misinterpreted. I was acknowledging that unarmed black people are more likely to be shot and killed by police, but also pointing out that overall, in a country of 328 Million, it is a tiny number of people regardless of race. Of course every life lost is a tradgedy, but in terms of combatting the issue moving forward, perspective is important.

I would argue as well, that it may be better, in regards to the killings in particular, to measure it instead through the lens of total violent criminals rather than total population, which would provide an enitrely different result - however obviously because we don't have records of all the killings and the criminal history of the victims (and it's entirely possible that they don't have a violent record), it's not something we can really do at the moment. https://www.bmj.com/company/newsroo...in-us-more-than-3-times-as-high-as-in-whites/
Now as for competence well it's already widely acknowledged that American police officers are not as well trained as officers in other countries. However, first of all the tasers in question is designed to be different from a gun to avoid these mistakes (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-56729673 check the bbc reality check). -------------On top Daunte Wright would have been more scared for his life as he will know first hand what can happen to black suspects in this case. I'm not saying he hadn't committed a crime or the warrant wasn't justified, but the whole situation would have been more volatile because of how the police perceived the suspect and how the suspect perceived the police which is a direct result of systemic racism in America and the police.

I can fully agree with the first part of this. Police forces in the US clearly need better funding for better training across the board - seeing funding cut would most definetly not help.

Obviously, a warrant out for his arrest is likely to escalate the situation, especially if it was for a violent crime.

The issue here is you are just making assumptions of motive/sentiment on their part and his based on zero evidence. Despite that, even if they were more cautious and ready for it to turn violent, that's not purely by virtue of him being a black man - if that were the case, it would likely be that, statistically, there is more likely to be an escalation. Again, it would be great if that wasn't the case, but in a field where everything is about measured risk and probability, it would be nonsensical not to acknowledge it.
I agree with a lot of this that many of the issues relate to socio-economic problems. However it still doesn't change the fact that in America and this country black people and in general anyone who is non-white are more likely to be stopped. The issue I have is mainly with this sentence here. " To that end - it is worth noting that when they police do encounter a suspect, white police officers show no difference in regards to the use of force whatever the race of the suspect."
This sentence in bold is the crux of it - this is the end product rather than the problem in itself. They are more likely to be stopped by virtue of the fact that they are statistically more likely to be living in, or part of, a community or demographic which is responsible for much higher levels of crime. It's the same reason a 25 year old is more likely to be stopped than an 80 year old - it's a measured risk that speaks to deeper social issues.

Again, it is an issue, but the police statistics aren't the root of the problem - they are a window into it.
Reading the article you linked I have have some issues with their assumptions. First they say "As the proportion of Black or Hispanic officers in a FOIS increases, a person shot is more likely to be Black or Hispanic than ----------
Given these issues and the continued use of our work in the public debate on this topic, we have decided to retract the article.”
It really does feel to me that the statement was more a result of the media not liking the findings more than anything else if I'm being honest - but happy for it to be discounted regardless.

The point still stands I think anyway - obviously a higher portion of black people than one should expect are shot by police when the same demographic makes up such a huge portion of the crime rate. I know you are going to say that is indicative of systemic racism in wider society, but as I laid out in my posts earlier, I really don't think that label is appropriate or helpful.
This here is my biggest issue. You equate systemic racism with overt practices that are specifically designed to negatively impact a particular racial group. This is where you are wrong. Systemic racism is to do with the fact that being born black (and in most cases non-white, though to different degrees) means that you are treated differently by society and the institutions that make up society ---------- I said at the start that I am reading 'Why I'm no longer talking to white people about race' by Reni Eddo-Lodge and I would recommend it as it explains far better what systemic racism is and what it looks like.

I feel like this section speaks to a rampant issue in today's politics/social sphere, where being able to stick an all encompassing label on something comes ahead actually looking at problems and how to solve them rather than perpetually talk about them.

In order to combat crime, poverty and any number of social issues, you have to understand why they are there (if it's a long term issue especially) and thus how one fixes it. Labeling everything that results in unequal outcome as "systemically racist" is deeply unhelpful and largely ignores problems, promoting the idea that there are catch all solutions to radically different problems. Black people not having the vote and low black educational attainment would both be labeled as "systemic racism" under your definition - but they are completely different issues, with different reasons for existing.


Again, we are mostly disagreeing over the definition here - though you also seem to be suggesting that the use of statistics to determine probability is something that shouldn't happen - which I hope I'm misinterpreting?
 

ncurd

Hall of Fame
TRF Legend
TRF Supporter
Joined
Feb 7, 2015
Messages
10,340
Reaction score
3,282
Country Flag

England

Club or Nation

Bath

Police forces in the US clearly need better funding for better training across the board - seeing funding cut would most definetly not help.
I'm just going to take this snippet the police in US need better training this is does not necessarily mean they need better funding. For one as this exact incident showed even if we take "I accidentally used my taser" at face value the fact they were armed with two pieces of equipment shows they were possibly over equipped (and this does appear to be the case throughout the USA). Redistributing the funding towards training instead of equipment.

This is some of thinking behind 'defund the police" although obviously like all positions there are extremeists advocating for no police or crippling them financially. But if you stop them being essentially a well funded paramilitary organisation they would have to find alternative method to policing, that don't require gunning people down unless in an actual life threatening situation where actual highly trained professionals are called in.
 

Not Mike Brown's Sock

First XV
TRF Legend
Joined
Dec 22, 2014
Messages
2,120
Reaction score
654
Country Flag

UK

Club or Nation

Harlequins

I'm just going to take this snippet the police in US need better training this is does not necessarily mean they need better funding. For one as this exact incident showed even if we take "I accidentally used my taser" at face value the fact they were armed with two pieces of equipment shows they were possibly over equipped (and this does appear to be the case throughout the USA). Redistributing the funding towards training instead of equipment.

This is some of thinking behind 'defund the police" although obviously like all positions there are extremeists advocating for no police or crippling them financially. But if you stop them being essentially a well funded paramilitary organisation they would have to find alternative method to policing, that don't require gunning people down unless in an actual life threatening situation where actual highly trained professionals are called in.
So in a country where guns are fairly widely spread, which would you like them to have? Gun or tazer? One would leave them very vulnerable and the other would leave them with realistically only a lethal option?

In the UK most can get away without a lethal weapon but in the US they need that option surely?
 

The Alpha Bro

Fat Boi
TRF Legend
TRF Supporter
Joined
Dec 3, 2010
Messages
14,445
Reaction score
4,611
Country Flag

South Africa

Club or Nation

Leinster

@The Alpha Bro - surely this is the prime case where incompetence is a very valid reason, because it is an isolated incident?

The other two responses to this covered systematic racism better than J could hope to so I'll just address.

Mistake or not, I think every unlawful police killing of a black person needs to be met with a strong response. An oppressed minority needs spotlight and attention to be heard because in the vast majority of cases throughout history peaceful responses haven't been particularly successful. I think a bit of anarchy is required here and not using a moment where you're front and centre of attention in your country's selective media is a waste.

I really don't see anyone who is already on the side of Black Americans turning against them if their actions aren't excessive and the more often other people see events like this the more likely they are to realise how angry these people are and educate themselves further as to why. Unfortunately there's far too many people too far gone and happy to blindly vilify protesters in that country which slows the process incredibly.
 

ncurd

Hall of Fame
TRF Legend
TRF Supporter
Joined
Feb 7, 2015
Messages
10,340
Reaction score
3,282
Country Flag

England

Club or Nation

Bath

So in a country where guns are fairly widely spread, which would you like them to have? Gun or tazer? One would leave them very vulnerable and the other would leave them with realistically only a lethal option?

In the UK most can get away without a lethal weapon but in the US they need that option surely?
Did I say remove guns from them? (Although honestly I do question if they a deterrent and actually protect police officers and just create a situation of escalation on both sides). I said the person over equipped in relation to thier training, look at tasers in the UK https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-50862398 even they are not universal here and require training before you can be issued with one.

The entire issue stems around a mentality of what police are supposed to do and in the USA its extremely warped.

There was an excellent srticle I once read on the subject and I haven't been able to find for a long time.
 

Not Mike Brown's Sock

First XV
TRF Legend
Joined
Dec 22, 2014
Messages
2,120
Reaction score
654
Country Flag

UK

Club or Nation

Harlequins

The other two responses to this covered systematic racism better than J could hope to so I'll just address.

Mistake or not, I think every unlawful police killing of a black person needs to be met with a strong response. An oppressed minority needs spotlight and attention to be heard because in the vast majority of cases throughout history peaceful responses haven't been particularly successful. I think a bit of anarchy is required here and not using a moment where you're front and centre of attention in your country's selective media is a waste.

I really don't see anyone who is already on the side of Black Americans turning against them if their actions aren't excessive and the more often other people see events like this the more likely they are to realise how angry these people are and educate themselves further as to why. Unfortunately there's far too many people too far gone and happy to blindly vilify protesters in that country which slows the process incredibly.
To achieve what exactly in this particular incident? What needs to be heard? If it's the fact that police officers should know the difference between a gun and a taser, then absolutely fair enough, but that's not what the riots are about.

I would also suggest that the idea of who is "on the side of black americans" is identity politics at it's worst. One can both be deeply against the rioting and violence perpetuated by BLM, but also still be wholeheartedly want the best for that community. If anything, BLM is damaging the community it supposedly is "on the side of".
Did I say remove guns from them? (Although honestly I do question if they a deterrent and actually protect police officers and just create a situation of escalation on both sides). I said the person over equipped in relation to thier training, look at tasers in the UK https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-50862398 even they are not universal here and require training before you can be issued with one.

The entire issue stems around a mentality of what police are supposed to do and in the USA its extremely warped.

There was an excellent srticle I once read on the subject and I haven't been able to find for a long time.
You said:
the fact they were armed with two pieces of equipment shows they were possibly over equipped
What would you propose they were over equipped with? If that wasn't your point and you meant to say in relation to their training then fair enough - but that's not what you said.

I'd suggest they probably need both pieces of equiptment and better training, rather than subbing one for the other
 

The Alpha Bro

Fat Boi
TRF Legend
TRF Supporter
Joined
Dec 3, 2010
Messages
14,445
Reaction score
4,611
Country Flag

South Africa

Club or Nation

Leinster

To achieve what exactly in this particular incident? What needs to be heard? If it's the fact that police officers should know the difference between a gun and a taser, then absolutely fair enough, but that's not what the riots are about.

I would also suggest that the idea of who is "on the side of black americans" is identity politics at it's worst. One can both be deeply against the rioting and violence perpetuated by BLM, but also still be wholeheartedly want the best for that community. If anything, BLM is damaging the community it supposedly is "on the side of".
It needs to be heard that under no circumstances are unlawful police killings going to be tolerated, particularly of black people, who for a multitude of reasons, are the prime victims.

If it was a case that Black Americans were in anyway equal to their white counterparts I'd agree with you but identity politics is very much required here. It's a case of people who aren't and never have been equal to others in their country and there are far too many people given a platform who'd happily ensure they never will be if they could.

This is an unlawful police killing of a black person, an all too common incident that has become embroiled in the centre of race relations in America. By the sound of it what you'd have the community do is behave themselves and hope that the institution filled of people who hate them simply for being throw them bones here and there for good behaviour. In reality an institution that has continuously killed their friends and family have done so again through total and utter incompetence at best, it's not a time for fingers on lips. I think it's telling that it's rare you hear black Americans say these protests are damaging to them, they're being listened to far more than before because of it.

I'm also aware these riots result in innocent people getting hurt, and if it was possible for that to be avoided it should be but it's not, oppressed majorities aren't listened to until they start fighting in most cases what chance do 13% of the population have? I'd suggest black Americans have been incredibly peaceful throughout history considering what they've had to endure.
 

Reiser99

First XV
TRF Legend
Joined
Aug 18, 2015
Messages
4,066
Reaction score
1,497
Country Flag

England

Club or Nation

Leicester

This was the definition difference that I laid out in my posts talking to @Welsh Exile - statistically speaking, an officer is much more likely to be at risk if they pull over a black person, purely by virtue of stats alone. It's an end product to a deep issue that culminates in higher than should be expected violent crime rates for black people, and thus a more "agressive" police response in general. It is not itself the issue, but representative of a deeper one.

I'm pretty sure we don't actually disagree on the substance here, it is simply the framing that is different.

If you are suggesting that no risk assesment should ever be made on anything based on statistics if they correspond to race, gender or any other physical characteristics, then that is definetly going to do far more harm than good.


That's not quite the point I was making, but re-reading it I can see how it may have been misinterpreted. I was acknowledging that unarmed black people are more likely to be shot and killed by police, but also pointing out that overall, in a country of 328 Million, it is a tiny number of people regardless of race. Of course every life lost is a tradgedy, but in terms of combatting the issue moving forward, perspective is important.

I would argue as well, that it may be better, in regards to the killings in particular, to measure it instead through the lens of total violent criminals rather than total population, which would provide an enitrely different result - however obviously because we don't have records of all the killings and the criminal history of the victims (and it's entirely possible that they don't have a violent record), it's not something we can really do at the moment. https://www.bmj.com/company/newsroo...in-us-more-than-3-times-as-high-as-in-whites/


I can fully agree with the first part of this. Police forces in the US clearly need better funding for better training across the board - seeing funding cut would most definetly not help.

Obviously, a warrant out for his arrest is likely to escalate the situation, especially if it was for a violent crime.

The issue here is you are just making assumptions of motive/sentiment on their part and his based on zero evidence. Despite that, even if they were more cautious and ready for it to turn violent, that's not purely by virtue of him being a black man - if that were the case, it would likely be that, statistically, there is more likely to be an escalation. Again, it would be great if that wasn't the case, but in a field where everything is about measured risk and probability, it would be nonsensical not to acknowledge it.

This sentence in bold is the crux of it - this is the end product rather than the problem in itself. They are more likely to be stopped by virtue of the fact that they are statistically more likely to be living in, or part of, a community or demographic which is responsible for much higher levels of crime. It's the same reason a 25 year old is more likely to be stopped than an 80 year old - it's a measured risk that speaks to deeper social issues.

Again, it is an issue, but the police statistics aren't the root of the problem - they are a window into it.

It really does feel to me that the statement was more a result of the media not liking the findings more than anything else if I'm being honest - but happy for it to be discounted regardless.

The point still stands I think anyway - obviously a higher portion of black people than one should expect are shot by police when the same demographic makes up such a huge portion of the crime rate. I know you are going to say that is indicative of systemic racism in wider society, but as I laid out in my posts earlier, I really don't think that label is appropriate or helpful.


I feel like this section speaks to a rampant issue in today's politics/social sphere, where being able to stick an all encompassing label on something comes ahead actually looking at problems and how to solve them rather than perpetually talk about them.

In order to combat crime, poverty and any number of social issues, you have to understand why they are there (if it's a long term issue especially) and thus how one fixes it. Labeling everything that results in unequal outcome as "systemically racist" is deeply unhelpful and largely ignores problems, promoting the idea that there are catch all solutions to radically different problems. Black people not having the vote and low black educational attainment would both be labeled as "systemic racism" under your definition - but they are completely different issues, with different reasons for existing.


Again, we are mostly disagreeing over the definition here - though you also seem to be suggesting that the use of statistics to determine probability is something that shouldn't happen - which I hope I'm misinterpreting?
Your main point it seems, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that reason black people (mainly men) in America are more likely to stopped, arrested, treated violently or shot by the police is because statistically they are more likely to commit a crime. However, there is no racial bias in this, it is a consequence on black people committing more crimes because of socio-economic problems that have helped lead them to crime in the first place.

I have no problem with statistics being used, but I have two main issues. First is that if your argument was correct there would be a correlation between percentage of crimes committed by black people and the percentage of black people shot by law enforcement. Now I will admit that I can't find exact corresponding numbers, but according to the Department for Justice website https://www.ojjdp.gov/ojstatbb/crime/ucr.asp?table_in=2&selYrs=2019&rdoGroups=1&rdoData=rp the percentage of crimes committed by black people were on average 27% between 2015-2019. However I can't see Hispanic/Latino as ethnicity on here so I assume it comes under black. White people committed 70% of crimes.
For unarmed shootings (https://www.bmj.com/company/newsroo...in-us-more-than-3-times-as-high-as-in-whites/) Black and Hispanic deaths accounted for 46%. White people 51%.
In terms of overall police shootings (https://www.statista.com/statistics/1123070/police-shootings-rate-ethnicity-us/) black people accounted for 35% of police shootings Hispanic people 26%. White people just 14%.

The percentages don't add up. There is no clear correlation between percentage of crime committed and percentage of black people killed by police. How can you explain the difference other than racial bias?

Second is that statistics tell us nothing to do with the motivation or sequence of events that lead to the killing of these people. What does is eye witnesses, video evidence etc. Therefore using statistics to try and show there is no racial motivation is like a song without the music. It's only part of the whole picture. I have no objection to using statistics, but you seem to be entirely reliant on statistics to support your argument ignoring the first hand accounts of people who have lived through systemic racism.

Now we seem to disagree on what systemic racism means. I've already explained that. What I will do is provide more evidence of how black people are treated differently by law enforcement in America. Here is just one high profile example. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...sts-trump-riots-police-response-b1783611.html Just look at the way the police prepared for and handled the BLM protests in Washington, compared with the MAGA protests that genuinely tried to stop the democratic process of the US.
 

Ragey Erasmus

International
TRF Legend
Joined
Sep 20, 2011
Messages
6,658
Reaction score
2,616
Country Flag

England

Club or Nation

Bath


And the government corruption just rolls on... This is the most blatant it has been in years and the Tories can't go blaming Labour any more, this is all on them now. Government says something needs to be done in public but in Parliament votes down any sort of measures that could actually lead to anything, ensuring it is all kept in house where they can control the message. If we have learned one thing, it's staggering how far you can push people and get away with things as long as you drape yourself in the Union flag.
 

ncurd

Hall of Fame
TRF Legend
TRF Supporter
Joined
Feb 7, 2015
Messages
10,340
Reaction score
3,282
Country Flag

England

Club or Nation

Bath


In any normal era the Cameron stuff would of forced his resignation, surely he has to resign now? Not that I'm expecting it.
 

BiggusLaddus

Academy Player
Joined
Sep 21, 2019
Messages
206
Reaction score
163
Resignation? That's just for governments who have something to fear isn't it?

Short of actual skeletons, the only thing that would put one of our current ministers in fear of their job is a rumour that some of their friends might have once spoken to a remain voter.
 

Which Tyler

International
TRF Legend
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Messages
5,809
Reaction score
2,341
Country Flag

England

Club or Nation

Bath


In any normal era the Cameron stuff would of forced his resignation, surely he has to resign now? Not that I'm expecting it.
It's a feature of Tory rule - not a bug.
This lot have just made it more explicit and blatant than ever before
 

Ragey Erasmus

International
TRF Legend
Joined
Sep 20, 2011
Messages
6,658
Reaction score
2,616
Country Flag

England

Club or Nation

Bath

Latest posts

Top