A Political Thread

[General Melchett]

make way for somebody who truly believes in Brexit and is prepared to leave on WTO terms ASAP.

Brexit Party for me and hopefully this is the end of it all.

P:S: I actually voted remain but democracy and honouring people's choices is more important to me.

There is no mandate for leaving on WTO terms. The Leave campaign literature all stated that the UK would leave after negotiating a deal with the EU. Leaving on WTO terms is something that MPs have determined after the referendum and not the public.

If MPs don't like May's deal then then the are three options:

1. Revoke article 50
2. Put May's deal to the people v No deal v Remain
3. Extend article 50 in order for a new leader/PM to start again and renegotiate a new deal with the EU before it gets put to Parliament again.

 

[sCriv]

Already hearing reports of several EU citizens being denied a vote because the council didn't have time to get the paperwork out to them

Interesting view of "Nobody" there - plenty of people have been talking about worker's rights, women's rights, animal rights, environmental protections, not getting raped by the US, trade deals that actually exist...


Let me guess - but you're completely opposed to the idea of letting people be democratic and having a choice when there's some actual information and evidence to inform said decision?

I'm delighted to hear that you've voting for wanna-be fascists, NHS destroyers, homophobes, misogynists who want to bankrupt the country for their own personal gain.
Personally, I'm happy to oppose all such aspects to the best of my ability.

Utter nonsense.


It is incredibly patronising to millions of leave voters to say that they didn't understand or know what they voted for.

The choice on the ballot was clear and simple: Remain or Leave.
Nobody voted for delay. Nobody voted for a deal. They voted to leave. Overwhelmingly, I might add.

You are happy to have a second vote but accuse people like me of being undemocratic and opposed to letting the people choose?
They already did choose!
You are the one ignoring the will of the people, not me.


It is precisely this sort of undemocratic rubbish from the remain side that has created all the problems we're currently seeing.

 

[sCriv]

Already hearing reports of several EU citizens being denied a vote because the council didn't have time to get the paperwork out to them

Interesting view of "Nobody" there - plenty of people have been talking about worker's rights, women's rights, animal rights, environmental protections, not getting raped by the US, trade deals that actually exist...


Let me guess - but you're completely opposed to the idea of letting people be democratic and having a choice when there's some actual information and evidence to inform said decision?

I'm delighted to hear that you've voting for wanna-be fascists, NHS destroyers, homophobes, misogynists who want to bankrupt the country for their own personal gain.
Personally, I'm happy to oppose all such aspects to the best of my ability.

Utter nonsense.


It is incredibly patronising to millions of leave voters to say that they didn't understand or know what they voted for.

The choice on the ballot was clear and simple: Remain or Leave.
Nobody voted for delay. Nobody voted for a deal. They voted to leave. Overwhelmingly, I might add.

You are happy to have a second vote but accuse people like me of being undemocratic and opposed to letting the people choose?
They already did choose!
You are the one ignoring the will of the people, not me.


It is precisely this sort of undemocratic rubbish from the remain side that has created all the problems we're currently seeing.

 

[sCriv]

There is no mandate for leaving on WTO terms. The Leave campaign literature all stated that the UK would leave after negotiating a deal with the EU. Leaving on WTO terms is something that MPs have determined and not the public.

Errr... yes there is.


Read the terms of article 50 and come back to me.
Bare in mind parliament voted to trigger article 50 overwhelmingly.


People voted to leave. In the campaigns up and down the country during the referendum it was made very clear on both sides what this would mean. (Leaving single market, leaving customs union, ending freedom of movement etc).

WTO achieves all of these things, May's deal achieves none of them.

 

[Which Tyler]

Utter nonsense.


It is incredibly patronising to millions of leave voters to say that they didn't understand or know what they voted for.

The choice on the ballot was clear and simple: Remain or Leave.
Nobody voted for delay. Nobody voted for a deal. They voted to leave. Overwhelmingly, I might add.

You are happy to have a second vote but accuse people like me of being undemocratic and opposed to letting the people choose?
They already did choose!
You are the one ignoring the will of the people, not me.


It is precisely this sort of undemocratic rubbish from the remain side that has created all the problems we're currently seeing.

Patronising it may be - a little; it's also factually accurate, unlike all of your claims.
There was nothing overwhelming about the referendum - Leave even publicly stated that they would challenge the result were it so close. They promptly refused to even consider doing so.
More democracy is never anti-democratic. And yes, I'm happy with more democracy - you're the one refusing people's right to vote, to vote on actual information.

You're the one refusing democracy, refusing the allow the people to express their will; insisting that democracy is one and done - forever, whilst complaining about the lack of democracy represented by elections.

 

[ncurd]

Errr... yes there is.


Read the terms of article 50 and come back to me.
Bare in mind parliament voted to trigger article 50 overwhelmingly.


People voted to leave. In the campaigns up and down the country during the referendum it was made very clear on both sides what this would mean. (Leaving single market, leaving customs union, ending freedom of movement etc).

WTO achieves all of these things, May's deal achieves none of them.

Actually May's deal achieves all those things, please explain how it does not. That's why the point of difference was always the backstop as it requires NI to remain within customs unions rules (and on that point its the only thing not delivered) until a new trade deal with EU is established. We do want trade deals with other countries or are we going to deal with all countries on WTO

I can also cite various polticians on Leave which stated we'd aim for Norway deal during the referendum which actually still keeps us within EFTA.

I suspect your not really a remain voter....a new member....and went straight for the poltical thread spouting ********.....hmmmm.

 

[General Melchett]

Errr... yes there is.


Read the terms of article 50 and come back to me.
Bare in mind parliament voted to trigger article 50 overwhelmingly.


People voted to leave. In the campaigns up and down the country during the referendum it was made very clear on both sides what this would mean. (Leaving single market, leaving customs union, ending freedom of movement etc).

WTO achieves all of these things, May's deal achieves none of them.

Were the key terms of article 50 (such as this) shared with the people during the referendum campaign? No.

People only became aware of article 50 after the result. It's utter nonsense to suggest that the people voted in 2016 in the knowledge that leaving on WTO terms would be the default position in the event of no deal. The Leave campaign repeatedly said that negotiating a good deal with the EU would be the easiest thing on earth.

 

[sCriv]

Patronising it may be - a little; it's also factually accurate, unlike all of your claims.
There was nothing overwhelming about the referendum - Leave even publicly stated that they would challenge the result were it so close. They promptly refused to even consider doing so.
More democracy is never anti-democratic. And yes, I'm happy with more democracy - you're the one refusing people's right to vote, to vote on actual information.

You're the one refusing democracy, refusing the allow the people to express their will; insisting that democracy is one and done - forever, whilst complaining about the lack of democracy represented by elections.

As a ratio I agree that 52% to 48% looks very close.
But when you look at the actual votes that entails, leave won by 1.3 million votes.
That is huge.
That's more than the entire population of Birmingham.
So no - I definitely don't agree that it was close, I think leave won fair and square, and by quite a margin.

More democracy is always anti-democratic if the original democratic outcome of a referendum is completely ignored.

Utter nonsense yet again.

 

[sCriv]

Actually May's deal achieves all those things, please explain how it does not. That's why the point of difference was always the backstop as it requires NI to remain within customs unions rules (and on that point its the only thing not delivered) until a new trade deal with EU is established. We do want trade deals with other countries or are we going to deal with all countries on WTO

I can also cite various polticians on Leave which stated we'd aim for Norway deal during the referendum which actually still keeps us within EFTA.

I suspect your not really a remain voter....a new member....and went straight for the poltical thread spouting ********.....hmmmm.

Please tell me how May's deal does not keep us in the single market, and therefore does not end freedom of movement?
Labour have been lobbying her to keep us in the customs union as well to help her get it through.

Her deal basically keeps us in the EU as a junior partner, without full membership status and is brexit in name only. It is atrocious.

I'm a fairly new member, and I did vote rermain, but I cannot stand the hypocrisy and faux-intellectualism of the remain side.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

What about the millions of 15/16/17 year olds who were not old enough to vote in the referendum and now three years on are being shoved out the plane without a parachute without a say in their future?

Considering how many people die every year, and how many people come of age, having a confirmatory 2nd vote makes massive amounts of sense, to say otherwise is to suggest that the country doesn't actually want to leave the EU and you're dragging it undemocratically out based on an advisory vote based on lies and illegal goings on

 

[sCriv]

Were the key terms of article 50 (such as this) shared with the people during the referendum campaign? No.

People only became aware of article 50 after the result. It's utter nonsense to suggest that the people voted in 2016 in the knowledge that leaving on WTO terms would be the default position in the event of no deal. The Leave campaign repeatedly said that negotiating a good deal with the EU would be the easiest thing on earth.

The remain side repeatedly and frequently claimed that voting to leave would mean leaving the customs union, the single market and freedom of movement.

I can cite you to many sources of remain campaigners making these claims.

I maintain that claiming leave voters didn't know what they voted for is unbelievably patronising. As I said, I voted remain myself, but leave won fair and square, and if May's deal is voted ddown for the 4th time, WTO is the only prudent option imo, as it delivers the brexit that people voted for and gets this whole debacle over with.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

As I said, I voted remain myself, but leave won fair and square.

I don't believe either of these.

The leave campaign broke multiple laws and lied through their teeth. Nothing fair and square about it.

gets this whole debacle over with.

********. A brexit MEP candidate this week predicted 30yrs of economic hardship after brexit. And this is someone who is trying to sell it to the masses.

 

[ncurd]

I can cite you to many sources of remain campaigners making these claims.

Oh FFS

If we are leaving what did leave promise? That is what should be delivered not what remain said would happen. Now leave claim we should go by what they didn't promise.

People voted leave so why are we not allowed to go for the Brexit they promised?

This is simple bloody logic and everything else is a falacy,

I still don't belive you were a remain voter and someone not trying to circumvent a ban because I've never met a remain voter this bloody stupid.

 

[sCriv]

I don't believe either of these.

The leave campaign broke multiple laws and lied through their teeth. Nothing fair and square about it.

Please show me which laws the leave campaign broke?
Please also list all the lies the leave campaign told (NHS bus-slogan aside) and then compare that to the following lies told by the remain side:

1.) The pound will crash if we vote to leave (Reality: Dipped for a few weeks and then gradually climbed back up to almost the same levels)
2.) Our GDP could shrink as much as 8% if we vote to leave (Reality: Our GDP grew by 2% in 2016 despite the vote, and has grown each year since)
3.) Up to 500,000 jobs could be lost if we vote to leave (Reality: 2 million new jobs created since 2016)
4.) Unemployment will radically increase if we vote to leave (Reality: Unemployment at its lowest level since 1974)



The hypocrisy is astounding.
It's no wonder people are fed up.

 

[ncurd]

Please tell me how May's deal does not keep us in the single market, and therefore does not end freedom of movement?
Labour have been lobbying her to keep us in the customs union as well to help her get it through.

Her deal basically keeps us in the EU as a junior partner, without full membership status and is brexit in name only. It is atrocious.

Spoken like true dyed in wool leaver.

Because it specifically means we will have left the single market and no longer under the rules of freedom of movement? I mean this as noted is the entire point of backstop, so that everyone within the UK except NI can set their own rules?

Labour are not in power or negotiating with the WU what they say would differently in regards to Brexit

 

[ncurd]

Please show me which laws the leave campaign broke?

Yeah the ones the met refuse to investigate because its poltically inconvenient.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...o-investigation-leave-campaigners-data-misuse

Please also list all the lies the leave campaign told (NHS bus-slogan aside) and then compare that to the following lies told by the remain side:

1.) The pound will crash if we vote to leave (Reality: Dipped for a few weeks and then gradually climbed back up to almost the same levels)

False - https://www.macrotrends.net/2549/pound-dollar-exchange-rate-historical-chart

Your other figures are fine although there is some dubious parts to think like unemployment figures which include people that wouldn't of been included before.

The reality is none of this is actually worth looking at because as leave likes to tell me WE HAVEN'T LEFT YET therefore either side predictions cannot be assessed to be correct because it hasn't happened. Although still very form of independent analysis including the governments own says its going to go bad. As noted a Brexit Party candidate this week said 30 years of hardship lets repeat that A BREXIT PARTY CANIDATE SAID THIS

 

[TRF_Olyy]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44856992

 

[Groundhog]

Please show me which laws the leave campaign broke?
Please also list all the lies the leave campaign told (NHS bus-slogan aside) and then compare that to the following lies told by the remain side:

1.) The pound will crash if we vote to leave (Reality: Dipped for a few weeks and then gradually climbed back up to almost the same levels)
2.) Our GDP could shrink as much as 8% if we vote to leave (Reality: Our GDP grew by 2% in 2016 despite the vote, and has grown each year since)
3.) Up to 500,000 jobs could be lost if we vote to leave (Reality: 2 million new jobs created since 2016)
4.) Unemployment will radically increase if we vote to leave (Reality: Unemployment at its lowest level since 1974)



The hypocrisy is astounding.
It's no wonder people are fed up.

Has it occurred to you that none of this has come to pass because you haven't actually left yet? Companies are in purgatory now waiting to see what will come of Brexit but for a fact some MNCs will certainly have no qualms about pulling the trigger if it's a no deal Brexit as they're in Britain largely to service the European market.

 

[sCriv]

Oh FFS

If we are leaving what did leave promise? That is what should be delivered not what remain said would happen. Now leave claim we should go by what they didn't promise.

People voted leave so why are we not allowed to go for the Brexit they promised?

This is simple bloody logic and everything else is a falacy,

I still don't belive you were a remain voter and someone not trying to circumvent a ban because I've never met a remain voter this bloody stupid.

Spoken like true dyed in wool leaver.

Because it specifically means we will have left the single market and no longer under the rules of freedom of movement? I mean this as noted is the entire point of backstop, so that everyone within the UK except NI can set their own rules?

Labour are not in power or negotiating with the WU what they say would differently in regards to Brexit

It's precisely because of the EU's non-negotiable backstop plan for NI that could keep us subject to freedom of movement under this deal, and jeopardise the good friday agreement! Which is exactly why MP's keep voting it down!

Clutching at straws.

I voted remain, contrary to everybody's belief that I didn't, but I can't stand to see the hypocrisy, contempt and undemocratic nonsense of the majority of people like me who voted remain towards people that voted to leave.

The only way this is going to end democratically, is if May's deal is discarded after a 4th down vote in the commons, and WTO is enacted.

 

[sCriv]

Has it occurred to you that none of this has come to pass because you haven't actually left yet? Companies are in purgatory now waiting to see what will come of Brexit but for a fact some MNCs will certainly have no qualms about pulling the trigger if it's a no deal Brexit as they're in Britain largely to service the European market.

That's not the point - the remain side made all of these false claims would come to pass just by the vote itself. Pure nonsense.
What you're saying makes it even more laughable.