• Help Support The Rugby Forum :

England 2021/22

Jimbo

First XV
TRF Legend
Joined
Feb 19, 2018
Messages
1,220
Country Flag

UK

Club or Nation

London Wasps

I didn't look up stats, just from what I saw I don't recall him making much headway.

Not to the effect he used to have.
Trouble is you will never really maximise player like him and Billy with a slow as **** SH like Youngs, if big ball carriers have taken multiple defenders, regardless of how much ground they have made in the process there has to be additional space somewhere until of course your SH takes and age and allows the defenders to organise.
 

Reiser99

International
TRF Legend
Joined
Aug 18, 2015
Messages
5,061
Country Flag

England

Club or Nation

Leicester

Trouble is you will never really maximise player like him and Billy with a slow as **** SH like Youngs, if big ball carriers have taken multiple defenders, regardless of how much ground they have made in the process there has to be additional space somewhere until of course your SH takes and age and allows the defenders to organise.
Tbh Youngs was summed up perfectly when Mako ran for a carry and Youngs ignored him to pass to someone else who was static. Mako just threw his arms up in the air in frustration.
 

Ddanno

First XV
Joined
Mar 27, 2015
Messages
1,060
Country Flag

England

Club or Nation

Harlequins

Tbh Youngs was summed up perfectly when Mako ran for a carry and Youngs ignored him to pass to someone else who was static. Mako just threw his arms up in the air in frustration.
There was a passage in the 6N where one of the forwards had to start and stop their run twice because he was dithering so much. The SA matxh saw him going one way then the other then back again. I swear he's starting to go senile
 

Jimbo

First XV
TRF Legend
Joined
Feb 19, 2018
Messages
1,220
Country Flag

UK

Club or Nation

London Wasps

There was a passage in the 6N where one of the forwards had to start and stop their run twice because he was dithering so much. The SA matxh saw him going one way then the other then back again. I swear he's starting to go senile
If I’m honest I would rather start a couple of new SHs, probably sacrifice a few games and potential 6 nations ***le before the WC, in order to be world beaters your going to need strength and depth in every position which we don’t have, 9 is so pivotal especially against a team you simply cannot outmuscle like SA, EJ is insane if he thinks he can pick virtually the same key components as last time round with a different outcome.
 

Jimbo

First XV
TRF Legend
Joined
Feb 19, 2018
Messages
1,220
Country Flag

UK

Club or Nation

London Wasps

I mean didn’t we just beat them?
In a game at home by a single point all kicks taken by England, a few missed by SA, let’s be honest it is anything but convincing, if there were no other options fine but there are.
 

TigsMan

G.O.A.T
TRF Legend
Joined
Dec 13, 2013
Messages
20,816
Country Flag

Ireland

Club or Nation

Leicester

In a game at home by a single point all kicks taken by England, a few missed by SA, let’s be honest it is anything but convincing, if there were no other options fine but there are.

another way of looking at it 3 tries to 1.....
 

TigsMan

G.O.A.T
TRF Legend
Joined
Dec 13, 2013
Messages
20,816
Country Flag

Ireland

Club or Nation

Leicester

People say it wasn't convincing England
Missing 1 of it's main Looseheads
The main Loosehead had zero training for like 2 weeks
Missing it's 2 starting Hookers
Lost it's starting centre pairing 8 minutes in.
10 players in the 23 had 10 caps or less
Slade had more caps than the rest of that backline that ended the game combined

the youngest player in the whole of that SA squad was 25 years old England had 11 players younger than him.

and yet people are still complaining.

Even at 9 Quirke played for 30 minutes.
 
Last edited:

BPM

First XV
TRF Legend
Joined
Feb 18, 2012
Messages
2,675
Country Flag

England

Club or Nation

Harlequins

I accept it wasn’t a classic performance and I accept we were ‘outgunned’ in the second half, but I really don’t get the pervasive negativity.

3 wins with lots of very promising players showing up well is a good return from the AIs IMO.
 

Reiser99

International
TRF Legend
Joined
Aug 18, 2015
Messages
5,061
Country Flag

England

Club or Nation

Leicester

For me overall it was a good AIs with some real improvements in attack.

For me the issue is how much of this was forced by injuries and how much was planned and will be kept up. We still had the ridiculousness of Curry at 8 and Tuilagi at 14. On top I don't see Farrell being dropped. We have all the ingredients for a great side, but Jones seems to intentionally try to make things more complicated.

I'm still reserving judgement until we see if the improvement is permanent or temporary.
 

Ragey Erasmus

International
TRF Legend
Joined
Sep 20, 2011
Messages
7,367
Country Flag

England

Club or Nation

Bath

I accept it wasn’t a classic performance and I accept we were ‘outgunned’ in the second half, but I really don’t get the pervasive negativity.

3 wins with lots of very promising players showing up well is a good return from the AIs IMO.

Put it this way, imagine SA had gone for the corner rather than the posts. That could have been painful and there would have been sod all we could have done to stop it. The wins were impressive but the issue stills remains, Jones is a reactive coach. He refuses to recognise or address problems until they become so huge we start losing left right and centre.

- 15 was an issue that has been solved after Daly was caught out multiple times and with a player who so clearly could address the problem it would be madness to leave them out
- Farrell at 12 and the general problem with how he fits in the side has never been addressed, this will change if he doesn't walk back into the side but again it took injury to address it
- Billy V being off form for years has half been addressed with the Curry experiment but he hasn't put a proper 8 there
- 9 is such a dead horse at this stage it is laughable. Yes I know there has been bad luck with injuries but he has compounded that bad luck by using aging players who will not be part of the future as the alternatives (Wiggy and Heinz) rather than picking another scrumhalf to replace the injured one. At no point were Simpson, Robson, Spencer and Care all injured at the same time.
- Discipline still not addressed

It's not like new problems are cropping up, these are the same problems that have been there for years. I recall when we were still winning but poorly towards the tail end of the unbeaten run at the start of the Jones era we were told it's ok as we are still winning, then it went to pieces. The same again in 2019. There are problems that were around in those 2 awful years that still have not been fixed and were still there in that SA game, nearly costing us. Yes it's good to get the win but can anyone say hand on heart they are confident England will go into the next game and not catastrophically **** the bed? We have lacked the ability to maintain control of games and that has been an issue since 2017 and has gradually been getting worse, WC against NZ being the exception.
 
Last edited:

Ragey Erasmus

International
TRF Legend
Joined
Sep 20, 2011
Messages
7,367
Country Flag

England

Club or Nation

Bath


But 1 result you have to imagine and the other you don’t.
We rolled a dice and got a 6, therefore there is no point listening to the concerns that we can very easily roll it again and not get a 6. We need to cut out the chance component as much as possible. We had no answer to the SA forwards and it was our luck that they didn't go to the corner that prevented that being even more harshly exploited. To pretend that isn't an issue or our discipline is baffling...
 

Jimbo

First XV
TRF Legend
Joined
Feb 19, 2018
Messages
1,220
Country Flag

UK

Club or Nation

London Wasps

People say it wasn't convincing England
Missing 1 of it's main Looseheads
The main Loosehead had zero training for like 2 weeks
Missing it's 2 starting Hookers
Lost it's starting centre pairing 8 minutes in.
10 players in the 23 had 10 caps or less
Slade had more caps than the rest of that backline that ended the game combined

the youngest player in the whole of that SA squad was 25 years old England had 11 players younger than him.

and yet people are still complaining.

Even at 9 Quirke played for 30 minutes.
Only a tigers fan can flip the conversation on its head to defend Youngs it was all aimed at him and how negatively he impacts England, very pleased with the grit determination and staying in touch as I said at the time but anyone who think that game was a win more than 2 or 3 times in 10 is delusional IMO, besides even if it was a great performance is youngs generally deserving of a starting spot, probably not?
 

Reiser99

International
TRF Legend
Joined
Aug 18, 2015
Messages
5,061
Country Flag

England

Club or Nation

Leicester

We rolled a dice and got a 6, therefore there is no point listening to the concerns that we can very easily roll it again and not get a 6. We need to cut out the chance component as much as possible. We had no answer to the SA forwards and it was our luck that they didn't go to the corner that prevented that being even more harshly exploited. To pretend that isn't an issue or our discipline is baffling...
I think this is a good point.

If we were to play that exact same match against S.A 10 times, how many would we actually win? I'd say less than 3. Yes we won, but right now I'd like to see consistency, not lucky wins, even if they do feel good. I still have no idea which England team will appear in the 6Ns or what Jones will do. Hell, don't even know if all the coaches will be there still the rate he goes through them.
 

BPM

First XV
TRF Legend
Joined
Feb 18, 2012
Messages
2,675
Country Flag

England

Club or Nation

Harlequins

We rolled a dice and got a 6, therefore there is no point listening to the concerns that we can very easily roll it again and not get a 6. We need to cut out the chance component as much as possible. We had no answer to the SA forwards and it was our luck that they didn't go to the corner that prevented that being even more harshly exploited. To pretend that isn't an issue or our discipline is baffling...
Who is pretending that? My comment was essentially that there are more positives to take away than negatives.
 

TigsMan

G.O.A.T
TRF Legend
Joined
Dec 13, 2013
Messages
20,816
Country Flag

Ireland

Club or Nation

Leicester

I mean didn’t we just beat them?
Which was more me being flippant

And you replied with:

“In a game at home by a single point all kicks taken by England, a few missed by SA, let’s be honest it is anything but convincing, if there were no other options fine but there are.”

I didn’t flip it that much on its head lol.

I even mention that Quirke got 30 minutes people acting like Youngs played the whole 80.

Now we will see what will happen.
If Eddie keeps bringing Quirke in it might be a simple case that Eddie just doesn’t rate Robson, Care or Spencer
 

BPM

First XV
TRF Legend
Joined
Feb 18, 2012
Messages
2,675
Country Flag

England

Club or Nation

Harlequins

And I bought a lottery ticket for the Euro Millions rollover. I could have been a multi millionaire, but sadly that didn’t happen.
 
Top