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England 2021/22

Jimbo

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“In a game at home by a single point all kicks taken by England, a few missed by SA, let’s be honest it is anything but convincing, if there were no other options fine but there are.”

What has that statement got to do with Youngs?
Please reread to summarise I opened by mentioning I’d rather see two young SHs than have Youngs there which I felt was required to really be world beaters, you preceded to say we just did, I responded by pointing out the manner in which England did beat SA was less than convincing, you proceed to say how people are disappointed with England and shouldn’t be etc, we are now here…..
 

TRF_Olyy

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If Eddie keeps bringing Quirke in it might be a simple case that Eddie just doesn’t rate Robson, Care or Spencer
Very much looks the case considering how little prem game time Quirke has had
It took Robson 13 caps before he got brought on for 30mins and that was against USA, not vs South Africa (and a game where Youngs wasn't playing terribly either)


The AIs were encouraging - my main question (as mentioned somewhere above) - how much of the positivity will remain when it's not forced?
Is Daly going to shunt Malins out of the 23 (or even force Steward to the bench) - is Farrell going straight back to undroppable?
Discipline is still poor and needs a lot of work
But the AIs went way way better than the 6N did and to not acknowledge that is just silly
 

Ragey Erasmus

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Who is pretending that? My comment was essentially that there are more positives to take away than negatives.
The positives:
- Smith & Steward looking firmly like they belong in the starting XV already
- A new 9 actually getting decent game time and not doing too badly, charge down aside
- Malins looking like a real prospect

Negatives
- Discipline absolutely in the toilet and continuing a trend that has been there for many years and has definitely cost us games, almost cost us this one. No sign anywhere this is being addressed
- Forwards quite badly overpowered to the point the set piece was pretty much a guaranteed penalty to SA
- Again poor resourcing of the breakdown. We are supposedly playing our 2 best flankers but it seems breakdown presence from the rest of the team is extremely lacking

Ultimately negatives like our discipline are longstanding and a serious hindrance to us. I look at it as imagine we had 3 games against SA. I'm pretty certain those negatives would be there in every game, I'm far less certain the positives would be. I'm not saying positives don't exist, I'm saying they are inconsistent whilst things like our atrocious discipline are always there and it is costing us when it matters. At the moment I feel pretty sure that the current unsolved issues will remain that way until the world cup. Discipline in particular, Jones is either completely unwilling or unable to tackle it and at this point I'm not sure which is worse. There is no certainty that the likes of Smith, Malins, Steward etc won't simply be shunted out again. I'm convinced Farrell will walk straight back into the side, even if England go on to annihilate everyone without him and even if we instantly lose every game the second he returns, I can't see Jones ever dropping him.
 

Scotty

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Honestly there issues with dicipline for England but tbh there are alot of young players so its expected. We have a 1 and 2 that are below 3rd choice. And 7 at 8 and Ben Youngs to slow down our game. Honestly though i dont care, not because we won i dont really care about that either way if we won.

What i care about is Rodd and Blamire held their own against the best, not saying they won the battle but they didnt embarressed themselves and have some good moments.

Quirke speeded things up when he got on and put in a good showing.

Smith is 12 from 12 in the AIs, hasnt set the world on fire but stays calm and kicks his kicks then when he gets the chance he can split defences apart. Looks like first choice going forward.

Malins is a very very talented prospect and had some good touches.

Steward will have 100 caps, solid in all aspects.

We have all the makings of a very strong team keeping the best of what we have.


Faz is slow and doesnt hold defenders therefore not a 12. And is massivly place kicked by Smith.

Youngs just slows the game down and is passed it, for years he was great for him but why hold on to him.

May, big fan of his and how he improved himself over the years and became a brilliant player but he seems to have dropped off IMO on prem and international form. 6N if he proves form but if not id like to see his club form improve before he's back.

For me in the 6N we need to keep up what weve started in the AIs

Opening game(if fit) id go

Genge LCD Sinks
Itoje Lawes/Hill/Launch
Curry Dombrandt(8) Underhill

Quirke Smith
Slade Marchant (Manu broken plus needed gametime for Marchant)
Malins Steward Radwan

Very young back line but strong going forward.

One player i want back in when back from injury is Jack Willis(form permitting).

Our young prospects are very promising and many of our experienced players, especially in the pack are still on form so im very excited for us going forward.
 

Reiser99

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Btw anyone who says we still need Young, Ford and Farrell and that Smith and Quirke should be on the bench to ease them in, look at France with Dupont and Ntamack. They gave them the chance to shine and now they are one of the best half-back pairs in the world if not the best. Yes it is a risk and if this was just after the world cup I'd maybe say start them from the bench. But we only have about 19 games left before the next world cup. For me we want Smith and Quirke starting at the world cup, so just start them and let them gain experience and have Youngs and Ford/Farrell on the bench to give them experienced support.
 

Which Tyler

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I still don't understand this insistence on considering "Youngs, Ford and Farrell" as a unit of 3.
2 of them have never been good enough, whilst 1 (the youngest) is still world class, and currently (just about) better than the pretender to his throne.

It's perfectly possible to replace 2 players without replacing the 3rd.

Not everyone who gets thrown in to sink or swim, swims; and you can't tell for sure after just 3 games (though it's a very good indication).

What's the harm is easing them in a little and setting them up to succeed?
What's the rush to get rid of one of our best 2-3 players over the last 5 years? Especially whilst he's in the form of his life?
 

TRF_Olyy

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2 of them have never been good enough
Think that's a bit harsh - early career Youngs was one of the best 9s in the world, and Farrell has definitely had his moments

The issue isn't that they were never good enough it's that we persisted with them regardless of the quality of their performances
 

Which Tyler

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Think that's a bit harsh - early career Youngs was one of the best 9s in the world, and Farrell has definitely had his moments

The issue isn't that they were never good enough it's that we persisted with them regardless of the quality of their performances
Sorry you're right - I'm reacting to the excessive by being excessive.

I should add the word "consistently" in there; for both of them, as even early career YBY had a problem with his consistency; and even then it would be excessively harsh on Youngs for 2011-2014 or so.

Farrell though, has never been good enough to be our first choice starter, at 10 or 12, but he's been a perfectly competent international level FH since about 2017 lions tour - ironically around the time we stopped playing him predominantly at FH.
 
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TigsMan

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Ford's not good enough currently.
Give him the rest of the season off England allow him to do his stuff then next year bring him back IMO
 

Don't Skip Leg Day

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Ford's not good enough currently.
Give him the rest of the season off England allow him to do his stuff then next year bring him back IMO
But don’t sale ruin players?

Ford is done when he leaves tigers for the cold wet north, his form will drop right off.
 

BPM

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We don’t have a pelthora of big players with the skill set we need.

There are some big beasts around, but for the most part, they’re not bringing anything other than size to the party.

Someone like Ehren Painter might be massive, but that doesn’t mean he’s worth looking at.

I think there are 2 issues:

1) we have a pack that is punching under it’s weight. It’s not light in terms of actual weight, but for whatever reason, the power output as a unit just isn’t matching the kgs.

2) we’re asking a more mobile pack to play like it’s a powerful pack which isn’t working.

When I look at how Eddie had the Japanese pack playing, I can’t understand why we’re not doing something similar?

Generally speaking we’re not being blown off the park, but I do think we’d be far closer to playing to our strengths by focusing on technique and mobility.
 

TigsMan

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Aye we have a great back row resources BUT I am slightly worried about the tight 5 going forward.
Who are going to be our big 6ft7+ locks?
Who are the front rowers coming up to fill in for Marler, Mako, George, Sinckler. We haven't even really replaced Cole yet and he's been out of international rugby nearly 4 years. We have Rodd but really you need IMO 3 top options in each position.
It's a worry longer term IMO

Locks wise especially I see Itoje staying come 2027
We have currently young locks who are 6ft7+
Alex Moon (25, 6ft7, 123KG)
Nick Isiekwe (23, 6ft7, 120KG)
Ollie Chessum (21, 6ft7, 118KG)
Alex Coles (22, 6ft7, 117KG)
Dave Ribbans (26, 6ft7. 116KG)

I do think Isiekwe's time has to come soon rather later
I'm biased because I do see him a lot but I think Chessum gets capped sooner rather than later.

I could see someone like Martin filling in for Lawes style bench lock/6 post RWC.

It just feels that the prem in general has a lot of middling tight 5 options, whereas every team seems to have at least 1 class back rower.
 

TRF_Olyy

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Yeah, tight 5 is the kind of position that takes a lot of time investment for players to grow, you don't get 19yr olds straight in to start at tighthead prop in the way that T.Curry broke his way in etc.
Clubs more than happy to buy in finished players from abroad

Isiekwe not being in the mix is criminal tbh, especially when compared to some of the other players who've been brought in at lock (/lock backrow hybrid)
 

TigsMan

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Do clubs even bring in that many locks?
Starting locks
Bath: Ewels, McNally
Bristol: Vui, Attwood
Exeter: Hill, Gray
Glous: Alemanno, Slater
Quins: Lewies, Symons
Tigers: Wells, Green
Irish: Coleman, Simmons
Falcons: Peterson, Robinson
Saints: Lawes, Ribbans
Sale: Lood, JLDP
Sarries: Itoje, Isiekwe
Wasps: Launchbury, Fifita
Worcester: Kitchener, Clegg

Outside Sale and Irish each team has at least 1 EQP lock that would be considered a starter.
 

TRF_Olyy

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I was thinking props more than locks,

Tighthead lock is an issue but for different reasons to front row
 

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