England Saxons to tour South Africa in June

[Peat]

Are you aware that Kvesic was born to English parents, raised in England, England age grade all the way through etc.etc. and that he was only born in Germany because his dad was in the Army?

Calling him anything other than English is just factually wrong.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Wasn't Kev born in Germany because his dad (parents?) serving on an army base there at the time? That's hardly a poach.

The Vunipolas came through our age group system. Think Hartley was there for a fair bit of it too, Harrison not quite so much, but a huge amount of his development would have been in England.

Don't get me wrong, I completely agree with you, apart from Harrison and Te'o I think that all of our foreign born players have come through the English system, but the fact that so many were born in foreign countries definitely warrants discussion. I am on your side with this, that Kvesic, Hartley, the Vunipolas etc. should all be able to play for us as this is where they've lived for the majority of their lives and they deserve to play for us, but it does mean that no matter how many matches England win or how good we get, people are always just going to bring up the amount of foreign born players in the team and say that they aren't deserved victories.

 

[Which Tyler]

Don't get me wrong, I completely agree with you, apart from Harrison and Te'o I think that all of our foreign born players have come through the English system, but the fact that so many were born in foreign countries definitely warrants discussion. I am on your side with this, that Kvesic, Hartley, the Vunipolas etc. should all be able to play for us as this is where they've lived for the majority of their lives and they deserve to play for us, but it does mean that no matter how many matches England win or how good we get, people are always just going to bring up the amount of foreign born players in the team and say that they aren't deserved victories.

But it's only really English people who bring it up - largely because no-one else is any better.

 

[Peat]

But it's only really English people who bring it up - largely because no-one else is any better.

Now that's just not true.

I've seen plenty of Kiwis go "What about..." after some idiot goes on about some lad who moved from Samoa to New Zealand when he was 3.

There probably is an interesting conversation to be had on this subject - I may have even been in one, once, possibly, maybe. I suppose pointing out the big big difference between English people who just happen to be born abroad and people who aren't that might even qualify. Sticking Kvesic (or Sharples, or Tom Johnson, or the Dicksons) in the same category as the others just makes no sense.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Only Uruguay, Namibia, south Africa and Georgia had less foreign born players than us in the RWC.

Even if you add, Manu, T'eo, Kvesic, Harrison, Hartley which would be 7 we still would of only had

Uruguay, Namibia, South Africa and Georgia (1), Fiji (3), Romania (4), NZ, Ireland, Canada (5) ahead of us. 9 out of 20 teams ahead of us.

Just shows how ignorant other team supporters are.

 

[Which Tyler]

Now that's just not true.

I've seen plenty of Kiwis go "What about..." after some idiot goes on about some lad who moved from Samoa to New Zealand when he was 3.

So... retaliation - or more usually WUMming; and a little enjoying the shoe being on the other foot after 20 years worth of ignorant accusations about being the biggest poachers in rugby.

 

[Duck a l'Orange]

It can be a bit farcical when Kvesic and similar types are branded foreign.

Always makes me chuckle how I'm considered to be an immigrant by government statistics, due to being born in Holland, despite having one Welsh and one English parent and living in England since I was two.

 

[TRF_heineken]

So... retaliation - or more usually WUMming; and a little enjoying the shoe being on the other foot after 20 years worth of ignorant accusations about being the biggest poachers in rugby.

Ugh!

Why go there??!! Now all those NZ'ers are going to take over this thread and demolish you...

 

[ratsapprentice]

Don't get me wrong, I completely agree with you, apart from Harrison and Te'o I think that all of our foreign born players have come through the English system, but the fact that so many were born in foreign countries definitely warrants discussion.

Kvesic shouldn't be included in this argument at all. Just... nope, not event remotely relevant.

I'm not sure that most of the guys you've mentioned warrant much discussion either.
The Vunipolas are both here due to economic migration (AFAIK) and they are both genetic outliers whose father played rugby to an international level - it's hardly surprising that they turned out to be pretty damn good.

Hartley too, was like 14 years old when he moved here with his Mum, and happened to be a very good rugby player. There is very little to discuss, IMHO.

Harrison - moved here for two reasons AFAIK, he was sounded out by Hartley/Saints, who saw him playing for Dylan's old school. And due to a particularly nasty incident that involved the death of one of his friends.
His move here was motivated just as much by non-rugby reasons as it was rugby related ones - he's spent his entire professional/senior career with Saints.
I have no problem with him playing at all.

Te'o, English mum, not tied to another country in this sport - no development by the English system. Fair enough - there are some legit reasons to be upset by his selection, but on balance, I don't have a problem with it.
He also moved away from Straya primarily for personal reasons, like Harrison. I don't see it as any different to any of the players who were born/raised in NZ with Samoan parent/s, playing for Samoa.
No doubt there is a bigger monetary payoff - not even comparible, really, but I think it would take some pretty skewed logic to suggest his motivations are necessarily much different from the "Samoan" players I've mentioned.

Hughes - I and a good number of people on here, do have a problem with his apparently inevitable selection.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Kvesic shouldn't be included in this argument at all. Just... nope, not event remotely relevant.

I'm not sure that most of the guys you've mentioned warrant much discussion either.
The Vunipolas are both here due to economic migration (AFAIK) and they are both genetic outliers whose father played rugby to an international level - it's hardly surprising that they turned out to be pretty damn good.

Hartley too, was like 14 years old when he moved here with his Mum, and happened to be a very good rugby player. There is very little to discuss, IMHO.

Harrison - moved here for two reasons AFAIK, he was sounded out by Hartley/Saints, who saw him playing for Dylan's old school. And due to a particularly nasty incident that involved the death of one of his friends.


His move here was motivated just as much by non-rugby reasons as it was rugby related ones - he's spent his entire professional/senior career with Saints.
I have no problem with him playing at all.

Te'o, English mum, not tied to another country in this sport - no development by the English system. Fair enough - there are some legit reasons to be upset by his selection, but on balance, I don't have a problem with it.
He also moved away from Straya primarily for personal reasons, like Harrison. I don't see it as any different to any of the players who were born/raised in NZ with Samoan parent/s, playing for Samoa.
No doubt there is a bigger monetary payoff - not even comparible, really, but I think it would take some pretty skewed logic to suggest his motivations are necessarily much different from the "Samoan" players I've mentioned.

Hughes - I and a good number of people on here, do have a problem with his apparently inevitable selection.

I don't understand why Te'o playing for us is any better than Hughes? I'd be more ok with Hughes playing for us as at least he's actually lived in this country as opposed to being eligible just because his mum lived here. But to be honest, I see both as a big f**k you to the residency policies and hopefully may spark a change in them.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Are military bases counted as the country the military is? Or is it just embassies?
So Kvesic could actually have been on British soil?
Or am I wrong on both counts and getting all my information from 80s action movies?

 

[saulan]

V (Team i expect)
6) Ewers
7) Kvesic
8) Armond

Also, that's a full foreign back row (Kvesic German, Armand and Ewers Zimbabwe).

The only foreign player there is Armand really. Both Kvesic and Ewers went through English school (and I agree that if someone goes through your schooling system or has been there since some form of childhood, they aren't really foreign). Don on the other hand just made good use of the 3 year rule. But good for him, he stood no chance here in the loosies (even though it sounds like from a few in this thread he shouldn't be in the Saxons squad anyway).

 

[ratsapprentice]

I don't understand why Te'o playing for us is any better than Hughes? I'd be more ok with Hughes playing for us as at least he's actually lived in this country as opposed to being eligible just because his mum lived here. But to be honest, I see both as a big f**k you to the residency policies and hopefully may spark a change in them.

Well, precisely because Te'o does have a link to this country in that his Mum is English.

I don't see how Te'o being selected by virtue of his mum being English is a **** you to the policy which specifically allows for that.

Hughes on the other hand... people (including commentators/pundits) were talking about him and his eligibility within months of him being here, despite the fact that he has no familial links to the country and has already played for Fiji Warriors. That's actually what really irritates me about the situation (not as much as the fact he's already played for a Fiji rep side, but still...), that people were talking about it so soon after he arrived.
I don't have a problem with people qualifying via residency (although I do agree it should be 5 years), but people counting down the days for three years is a clear abuse of the system.

Don on the other hand just made good use of the 3 year rule.

Think he's got English parents/grandparents.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

The only foreign player there is Armand really. Both Kvesic and Ewers went through English school (and I agree that if someone goes through your schooling system or has been there since some form of childhood, they aren't really foreign). Don on the other hand just made good use of the 3 year rule. But good for him, he stood no chance here in the loosies (even though it sounds like from a few in this thread he shouldn't be in the Saxons squad anyway).

When you say he stood no chance here in the loosies, you know he was Zimbabwean, not South African right? And to those saying he doesn't deserve to be in the Saxons squad, I strongly disagree. He was nominated for player of the season, you can't argue with that.

 

[Peat]

The only foreign player there is Armand really. Both Kvesic and Ewers went through English school (and I agree that if someone goes through your schooling system or has been there since some form of childhood, they aren't really foreign). Don on the other hand just made good use of the 3 year rule. But good for him, he stood no chance here in the loosies (even though it sounds like from a few in this thread he shouldn't be in the Saxons squad anyway).

Armand hasn't actually competed his 3 years so we presume there's some ancestry. I'm slightly dubious about him being there and where we get value for him for the England team I've gotta admit, but lets see how it plays out.

But yeah, Ewers has been here since 12 and has an English parent. The argument for him being foreign is pretty tenuous.

And the argument for Kvesic is... well, basically anyone who says Kvesic is foreign when in possession of the facts about him, is just... not someone I'm going to argue with. I can only presume Toby only saw his birth place and didn't know the background.

Are military bases counted as the country the military is? Or is it just embassies?
So Kvesic could actually have been on British soil?
Or am I wrong on both counts and getting all my information from 80s action movies?

I think just embassies but in any case, the hospital will be off the embassy/base.


edit: Toby - Armand was schooled and had his entire pro career in South Africa. In rugby terms, he was South African. Still is, really.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Armand hasn't actually competed his 3 years so we presume there's some ancestry. I'm slightly dubious about him being there and where we get value for him for the England team I've gotta admit, but lets see how it plays out.

But yeah, Ewers has been here since 12 and has an English parent. The argument for him being foreign is pretty tenuous.

And the argument for Kvesic is... well, basically anyone who says Kvesic is foreign when in possession of the facts about him, is just... not someone I'm going to argue with. I can only presume Toby only saw his birth place and didn't know the background.



I think just embassies but in any case, the hospital will be off the embassy/base.


edit: Toby - Armand was schooled and had his entire pro career in South Africa. In rugby terms, he was South African. Still is, really.

Yeah, I do think I have to apologise on a few counts really for not actually looking into players' history (Kvesic and Armand especially) before commenting and only looking at their birth place. But the selection of Te'o in the main squad and Hughes' inevitable selection does still bug me massively.

 

[Peat]

Yeah, I do think I have to apologise on a few counts really for not actually looking into players' history (Kvesic and Armand especially) before commenting and only looking at their birth place. But the selection of Te'o in the main squad and Hughes' inevitable selection does still bug me massively.

No worries man, we all do it.

I think pretty much everyone bar the guys running rugby want a longer qualification period than Hughes got. I'm okay with us exploiting the situation, but its a pretty dumb one.

 

[Which Tyler]

For me it just needs to be longer than a RWC cycle (to avoid the Pietersen scenario of being rejected for a RWC squad; and qualifying elsewhere ahead of the next one out of spite); and longer than a singe contract (typically 2-3 years; such as Flutey, Hughes etc). 5 years or 50 months seem sensible enough to me TBH.

With Te'o; people keep seeming to forget that he has an English parent - not just one who happened to spend some time in England; but one who was born in England, with 2 English parents and was brought up thoroughly English.
OK, so he played a different sport for a different country; but... I'm actually OK with that.

 

[ratsapprentice]

5 years, if it's still being exploited after that then you can increase it further.

- - - Updated - - -

With Te'o; people keep seeming to forget that he has an English parent - not just one who happened to spend some time in England; but one who was born in England, with 2 English parents and was brought up thoroughly English.
OK, so he played a different sport for a different country; but... I'm actually OK with that.

If he played for Samoa, I don't think anyone would bat an eyelid... conversely, if he was called Ben Thomas I don't think a lot of people who are currently complaining would be.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

It just frustrates me that young, talented centres who have come through the Academy system (Hill, Devoto etc.) are being knocked one further down the pecking order because Te'o's now decided that he wants to play for England.