England Saxons to tour South Africa in June

[TRF_Olyy]

I can't find any mention of his wife being the reason anywhere. Considering the love in from press and pundits I would've expected them to run with it, if it were the case.


Meanwhile:

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

I can't find any mention of his wife being the reason anywhere. Considering the love in from press and pundits I would've expected them to run with it, if it were the case.


Meanwhile:

I think it is prob from a saracens forum or something as i haven't seen anywhere talking about Ashton's family being the reason he turned down Saxons.

Wonder if this goes well if Hepher will get the backs coach job full time?

 

[Peat]

Well i think that's a bit harsh on Ashton. If that's actually true that his wife is expecting during the summer then there is scope for leeway in regards to the Saxons.

We've seen many players miss full on national test matches to be with their wives. Surely he can miss a Saxons tour.

It is harsh but it's true. Once a player has said he's available for England, he doesn't get to start picking and choosing what he does for England with no come backs.

I can't blame him for not wanting to go on the Saxons tour. I imagine in their heart of hearts, none of the England senior players picked really want to be there. They're not going to improve themselves as players or challenge themselves against the best. But their inclusion isn't for their sakes - its for the coaches' sakes, and maybe giving the young bucks some professional role models to look up to out there.

What the coaches get out of this isn't an assessment of the player's ability to play rugby, but the player's ability to react to disappointment and adversity. None of the senior players want to be there. But those who make the most of it and drive standards and act professionally and show a burning desire to do whatever they can to get closer to the England team, they'll get good reports. Those who don't, I don't think we'll be seeing much more of them.

And those who don't even go for reasons they didn't think important enough to miss a full England tour for? They're done. They've not shown the right stuff.

That might be harsh, but it's the way of it.

The only mitigating circumstance would be a sudden medical development in the pregnancy that makes being home a great deal more attractive.

 

[tsof]

Source?

If he's said to Eddie "Mate, don't wanna tour anyway, the wife's giving birth", I'd say fair dos.

100% read it on BBC Sport yesterday as the squad was announced, but now looks like it's been taken out. As you were....

 

[welshglory]

It is harsh but it's true. Once a player has said he's available for England, he doesn't get to start picking and choosing what he does for England with no come backs.

I can't blame him for not wanting to go on the Saxons tour. I imagine in their heart of hearts, none of the England senior players picked really want to be there. They're not going to improve themselves as players or challenge themselves against the best. But their inclusion isn't for their sakes - its for the coaches' sakes, and maybe giving the young bucks some professional role models to look up to out there.

What the coaches get out of this isn't an assessment of the player's ability to play rugby, but the player's ability to react to disappointment and adversity. None of the senior players want to be there. But those who make the most of it and drive standards and act professionally and show a burning desire to do whatever they can to get closer to the England team, they'll get good reports. Those who don't, I don't think we'll be seeing much more of them.

And those who don't even go for reasons they didn't think important enough to miss a full England tour for? They're done. They've not shown the right stuff.

That might be harsh, but it's the way of it.

The only mitigating circumstance would be a sudden medical development in the pregnancy that makes being home a great deal more attractive.

Well we are talking hypotheticals anyway because nothing has been announced in the press.

As i said there are plenty of cases of players missing full cap international matches and tours to be with their wife in these circumstances. Ashton is in an awkward position considering he is not a first choice pick on the wing.

I can't blame him. He stuck his hand up for selection to make the squad capable of winning a tour series versus Australia, because to be fair he was definitely in the mix going into the 6 nations. Since he's not been selected for that squad and given a spot on the Saxons instead and decided to stay at home to be with his wife.

Again i'm sceptical and confused at the same time, why wouldn't Ashton have disclosed this information to Jones, he definitely would have made mention of it when he was discussing Ashton in the press.

 

[johnmac99]

Totally agree on Watson. And on Nowell, where I'd also say that he's not fast enough for an international winger either. Certainly not quick enough to get himself out of trouble the way Watson can. When fit May joins Watson as an automatic pick in my book. Nowell at 15 with those two on the wings would be OK.

As for Ford's defence, the extra yard or two that it takes him to stop people or the flanker covering for him can be the origins of space on the outside. Yes a winger can be obviously exposed, but you also have to understand why that's happening.

Nowell not fast enough? I keep hearing this rubbish and would say that he would give anyone who plays for England a run for their money. Yes, Watson is quicker, but he's the exception, and I would pick him and Nowell for any England squad, not just for their speed, but because they are the best.

Old Hooker, you're entitled to your opinion and I know this is contentious, but IMO Jonny May is not good enough to play for England against the top international teams. His defence is worse than Ashton and Wade, and he has shown previously he is hopeless under the high ball. If England want to improve and move up the World rankings, then flawed players like May need to be left on the sidelines.

 

[Every Time Ref]

Source?

If he's said to Eddie "Mate, don't wanna tour anyway, the wife's giving birth", I'd say fair dos.

If he's said to Eddie "Mate, I'll tour with England, but not with the Saxons" then regardless of reason, there's no fair dos to it. I sympathise, but either he wants to play for England and that means doing what the set-up says, or he doesn't. No half-way house for me. And I suspect Jones might feel the same way.

I have to say I disagree, it's a case of weighing up benefits versus losses, and playing for England is a much greater benefit. He's quite entitled to decide that caps for England are worth missing the birth of his kid for but a Saxons tour isn't.

As an analogy, I work on commission. I might well hypothetically agree to work a Saturday* to finalise a deal which will make me say 5 grand, but I'm not going to do it for 200 quid.

*outside of rugby season...

 

[TRF_Olyy]

May frustrates me, in a couple of games he looked superb and his defence was really good - his use of the touchline as the "last defender" was some of the best I'd seen because he'd ease off let the opposition winger go around him then just completely gas them and drag them into touch.
But then most of his caps he had less than zero confidence and him and Brown were terrible together - no communication and they collided going for the same ball several times.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

May's not perfect, but he was on a steep upward trajectory having improved hugely in the run up to the RWC and also has a trick - sheer pace - that will frighten anyone. Assuming he can recapture form / fitness he should be straight back in the team.

Johnmac - Nowell is a very smart player, but he's been run down by club centres on more than one occasion this year. He's not slow but not ring burningly fast either. At the top level these margins count - as I say, maybe 15 is his calling.

 

[Peat]

I have to say I disagree, it's a case of weighing up benefits versus losses, and playing for England is a much greater benefit. He's quite entitled to decide that caps for England are worth missing the birth of his kid for but a Saxons tour isn't.

As an analogy, I work on commission. I might well hypothetically agree to work a Saturday* to finalise a deal which will make me say 5 grand, but I'm not going to do it for 200 quid.

*outside of rugby season...

Ashton is entitled to do it. Jones is entitled to end his England career over it. Insomuch as we can judge from past utterances, it seems pretty likely.

As I said, I sympathise, but from the perspective of someone who wants England to be as strong as possible, I simply don't regard it as acceptable for someone to make themselves available for England but not the Saxons. You're available for all or available for none, that's how it should be. Would you run it as any different if you were running England?

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Especially as any callups will come from the Saxons - they're going to look at Yarde/Wade/Roko if someone breaks, no whoever's sat at home in England.

 

[Maverick1987]

http://www.skysports.com/share/10292830

Here's the news report saying Eddie cleared Ashton missing Saxons tour

 

[j'nuh]

lol at Ashton being a dad. "Ash splash" will take a totally new meaning when he's covered in baby pee.

 

[Which Tyler]

Nowell not fast enough? I keep hearing this rubbish and would say that he would give anyone who plays for England a run for their money. Yes, Watson is quicker, but he's the exception, and I would pick him and Nowell for any England squad, not just for their speed, but because they are the best.

He really, really isn't; though setting the bar at "those who play for England" seems a little restrictive - after all, the winger is supposed to be the fastest guy in the team. Against Wales this 6N, chasing a kick forward he was burned by Brown; and then both were burned by Youngs. He'd also [IMO] get burned by Watson, JJ, Care and probably Ford; Alex Goode would give him a good run for his money.
Outside of the England team but sticking with wingers eligible for selection, he's got nothing on Varndell, Wade, May, Rokoduguni, Ashton, Lewington, Short, Woodburn and others. Actually, I struggle to think of a winger [or even FB] in the prem who I wouldn't back to beat Nowell in a foot race over 40m - Banahan and...

I just have this image in my head from the 6N - against Wales IIRC; of Nowell chasing a kick deep; being skinned by Brown, and then both being skinned by Youngs.

Nowell is a fantastic rugby player; he just doesn't have international wing-level pace. Had Exeter played him at 13 or 15 for the last couple of years he'd probably be my first choice for England - or at least presenting a genuine challenge to JJ and Daly.

Having said that, I'm a fan of positions having absolute requirements that simply have to be filled.
A prop has to be good in the scrum
A hooker has to be a reliable thrower
Locks have to be masters of either the lineout or the maul (preferably both)
BSF have to be destructive/workhorse tacklers
OSF have to rule the ruck

SH has to be able to pass the ball and boss the pack
FH has to read and control the game
Centres have to have a balance between distribution, pace and bosh
Wingers have to have top-end pace, ideally alongside acceleration over 3m
FB has to be a rock under the high ball, and a solid last line of defense.

Things beyond that are nice; but however good someone is at the secondary requirements, and absence of the above simply cannot be covered (at the top level).

 

[Peat]

http://www.skysports.com/share/10292830

Here's the news report saying Eddie cleared Ashton missing Saxons tour

Weird that Jones wouldn't mention it. This level of quiet from Jones is weird altogether.

I still reckon Ashton's blotted his copybook, but that might just be hope talking.

And it will be funny if there's an injury and someone gets called up from the Saxons and steals the show.

edit: McCall has said his wife is due to give birth at the end of June. Correct me if wrong, but wouldn't the Saxons tour be over before then, while the Australia tour wouldn't?

 

[ratsapprentice]

Jone's clearing it doesn't mean he's endorsing it, it just means that he's not kicked up a fuss.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

He really, really isn't; though setting the bar at "those who play for England" seems a little restrictive - after all, the winger is supposed to be the fastest guy in the team. Against Wales this 6N, chasing a kick forward he was burned by Brown; and then both were burned by Youngs. He'd also [IMO] get burned by Watson, JJ, Care and probably Ford; Alex Goode would give him a good run for his money.
Outside of the England team but sticking with wingers eligible for selection, he's got nothing on Varndell, Wade, May, Rokoduguni, Ashton, Lewington, Short, Woodburn and others. Actually, I struggle to think of a winger [or even FB] in the prem who I wouldn't back to beat Nowell in a foot race over 40m - Banahan and...

I just have this image in my head from the 6N - against Wales IIRC; of Nowell chasing a kick deep; being skinned by Brown, and then both being skinned by Youngs.

Nowell is a fantastic rugby player; he just doesn't have international wing-level pace. Had Exeter played him at 13 or 15 for the last couple of years he'd probably be my first choice for England - or at least presenting a genuine challenge to JJ and Daly.

Having said that, I'm a fan of positions having absolute requirements that simply have to be filled.
A prop has to be good in the scrum
A hooker has to be a reliable thrower
Locks have to be masters of either the lineout or the maul (preferably both)
BSF have to be destructive/workhorse tacklers
OSF have to rule the ruck

SH has to be able to pass the ball and boss the pack
FH has to read and control the game
Centres have to have a balance between distribution, pace and bosh
Wingers have to have top-end pace, ideally alongside acceleration over 3m
FB has to be a rock under the high ball, and a solid last line of defense.

Things beyond that are nice; but however good someone is at the secondary requirements, and absence of the above simply cannot be covered (at the top level).

That's not true at all. Nowell is faster than people on here claim. He may not be the fastest over 100 meter sprint but his acceleration over the 10-20 meter mark seems the same as every other winger.

Nowell is one of the best wingers in the premiership, he has shown that time and time again.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

He really, really isn't; though setting the bar at "those who play for England" seems a little restrictive - after all, the winger is supposed to be the fastest guy in the team. Against Wales this 6N, chasing a kick forward he was burned by Brown; and then both were burned by Youngs. He'd also [IMO] get burned by Watson, JJ, Care and probably Ford; Alex Goode would give him a good run for his money.
Outside of the England team but sticking with wingers eligible for selection, he's got nothing on Varndell, Wade, May, Rokoduguni, Ashton, Lewington, Short, Woodburn and others. Actually, I struggle to think of a winger [or even FB] in the prem who I wouldn't back to beat Nowell in a foot race over 40m - Banahan and...

I just have this image in my head from the 6N - against Wales IIRC; of Nowell chasing a kick deep; being skinned by Brown, and then both being skinned by Youngs.

Nowell is a fantastic rugby player; he just doesn't have international wing-level pace. Had Exeter played him at 13 or 15 for the last couple of years he'd probably be my first choice for England - or at least presenting a genuine challenge to JJ and Daly.

Having said that, I'm a fan of positions having absolute requirements that simply have to be filled.
A prop has to be good in the scrum
A hooker has to be a reliable thrower
Locks have to be masters of either the lineout or the maul (preferably both)
BSF have to be destructive/workhorse tacklers
OSF have to rule the ruck

SH has to be able to pass the ball and boss the pack
FH has to read and control the game
Centres have to have a balance between distribution, pace and bosh
Wingers have to have top-end pace, ideally alongside acceleration over 3m
FB has to be a rock under the high ball, and a solid last line of defense.

Things beyond that are nice; but however good someone is at the secondary requirements, and absence of the above simply cannot be covered (at the top level).

Brilliant post.

Nowell is good at making the initial few metres; probably a combination of speed off the mark, elusiveness and balance. But I wouldn't be backing him in an open field foot race against the top international boys.

 

[Tmartin995]

How many times in an international game though do you see wingers making 60-70m breaks? The majority of the time it's about making 10-20m breaks to get on the front foot. Nowell beat the most defenders in the prem this season due to his ability to do just that.

 

[j'nuh]

I have no objections to Ashton's actions here.

The Saxons is a great place for a player who has never played for England before to get some exposure to the international game and for the coaches to learn.

But the thought of the Saxons as a pathway towards England has become very muddied. Lots of players straight-up skip the Saxons. About 1/3 of the current England squad did. And although 2/3 did go through the Saxons, it is mainly players that developed over the long-term, who played for the Saxons when they weren't quite ready. Players like Farrell were deemed not to need that step. So if players can go straight into the England squad without going through the Saxons, what value does the Saxons bring? If it is an important test that players must go through, why do some players never play for the Saxons?

For some players such as Cipriani and Sharples, it has become an international cul-de-sac. Vague promises of England keep them interested, but Saxons isn't really giving them anything.

Ashton got it into his head that if he was selected for England, he could kick-off his international career again. It would have been a big career move, and playing for England is always an honour. The Saxons? It holds no guarantees, and being there means next-to-nothing. If he's the best winger come September, he will be in the AIs and his Saxons no-show won't change that. tbh, I would have made exactly the same call as Ashton, as would many people, I would think.

I think we should re-purpose the Saxons as an U24s team, a chance for the England coach to learn about the strengths and weaknesses of younger players, particularly of guys like Genge, who Jones may have never seen, and on which England may have very little data.