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England Squad Announced

I think we have a great 45 there and will have an even better 30 once the weaker players are chipped away.
Being an English man and a follower of rugby since the early 1990's Im saddened at how our international team looks more like a club team then an international team.
We have 13 players that grew up dreaming of playing rugby for their home countrys and then due to not being good enough or migration then end up in England and then all of a sudden it was their dream as young boys to play for England??? Give me a break.

Although these guys are good, they will never risk their neck for their team as its just a job to them. No matter what they say its not their country or homeland so they dont have that pride for England like Johnny had or Johnson had. They will do enough to keep their place and get paid.

All the while we have amazing talent coming through (look at our u20s) and yet only a small percentage will make the international squad because there is no room for them to develop as players as all the spots are taken by guys who flew in 3 years ago and are now eligable to play.

Its killing English rugby! This is the reason we dont play with the passion like we did in 2003 and before!
 
I see what your saying RedRoseDave, International should be international and Im certain rules will be changed after the world cup. However the argument of players not playing with passion for England is like saying the Gurkhas won't fight with passion for the British Army, which most definatley is not the case.

For instance, Manu Tuilagi has been helped out so much by various local authorities to keep him in the country when he faced deportation. This could be a reason why he wants to play for England, as he himself has said, and not follow in his brothers mighty footsteps and play for Samoa.

Waldrom, well, I reckon he just wants to play international Rugby but then again who doesnt? Anybody first starting international rugby is only concerned with how they are percieved and not about representing your country. Its the same with anybody breaking into a decent team wether its Leicester, Midlands, England u16, County, School, Club, you have to have been playing a while to have established yourself only then are you playing for passion. Thats why it was the England old guard, those supposedly too old to play decently that rallied the team to the final in 2007. Even if they wern't starting as you could see the fire in Dallaglios eyes when he slapped them onto the field against Australia.

I suppose the point is if we let these guys play, in time, they would develop the kind of passion we have seen from England before.
 
If Manu is passionate about England, why did he "sulk in his bedroom at home in Samoa" during the Premiership final? Didn't even turn up to cheer on his club team mates.
 
I imagine it's because he knew he couldn't go back to Samoa over the summer because he'd be in camp?
Or just wanted to see his family?


However, I agree he should've been there: Could he not have delayed his trip until after the final?
 
I don't think he'd've spent the entire trip in his room, I imagine he saw his parents/grandparents/aunts/uncles/whoever while he was back too
 
If Manu is passionate about England, why did he "sulk in his bedroom at home in Samoa" during the Premiership final? Didn't even turn up to cheer on his club team mates.

I didn't say he was passionate and It might be because hes so young and judging by his reactions to Ashtons puffy push, quite childish. I agree with Ollie, I don't know where you got the notion Manu was isolated in his room in Somoa on his own sobbing. He most probably was visiting family because he himself lives in England.
 
"I had a chat with him on Saturday night and Sunday. He did not come out of his room on Sunday, he was that bad. He is staying with Alex (Alesana) and just stayed in his room. I went around to try to bring him down.

"We sat around the table having a chat but he only stayed down for five minutes. He went back upstairs, that's how bad he has taken it. He is very disappointed. I am very disappointed because it was really out of character for Manu to throw a punch like that.

http://www.setanta.com/asia/Articles/2011/05/21/Manu-inconsolable-says-Freddie/gnid-95147/


"He did not come out of his room on Sunday, he was that bad.
"He is staying with Alex (Alesana) and just stayed in his room. I went around to try to bring him down.
"We sat around the table having a chat but he only stayed down for five minutes. He went back upstairs, that's how bad he has taken it.

http://www.thisisleicestershire.co....ddie-Tuilagi/story-12100128-detail/story.html

It's hardly a secret that he wasn't at Twickenham
 
Surely they're talking about the day after the punch though?
He was in Samoa during the final, and Alesana lives in Leicester
 
I think he was ****** off with himself to be honest, I know I would be. Imagine coming on the scene as a youngster and doing that right before the biggest game of your life. Sulking isnt the word to describe it. Sulking implies hes angry with others.

Surely they're talking about the day after the punch though?
He was in Samoa during the final, and Alesana lives in Leicester

^^ What he said
 
I'm actually quite pleased with the look of the England squad. Once it is trimmed correctly, and so long as Johnson gets the combinations right on the day there is certainly enough biff about it to do quite well. Stevens rightful or wrongful return will strengthen an already strong front row but otherwise I wouldn't expect too many changes. On the subject of the colonials keen to represent England, I would be bothered if they were keeping world class players out of the team, but to be frank, they aren't. I'd have probably have had Twelvetrees in there ahead of one of the kiwi centres but I'd be lying if I thought he was the answer to England's midfield. Apart from probably Robshaw I think most the stand out talent is in the team already. The other hopefuls are just that, hopefuls.
 
It just seems to be getting worse and worse with selecting the "imports". Im afraid that in 4 more years time we will have over half the squad made up of foreigner players.
I have 2 sons that both play rugby and are quite talented for their age and their dream is to play for England some day, just like all their friends that play. But i know that if they keep trying and trying and work their way up through the ranks and it gets to the point where they are in the mix for a squad selection...another kid from New Zealand or South Africa who grew up wanting to play for their home country but couldnt make it...will be selected ahead of our kids who have being wearing the red rose on their jerseys since they were 2 years old. And these guys who grew up HATING England (as the Aussies tell us on a regular basis) will now be playing for our country.

Something isnt right!
 
Multi-national England

Following the announcement of England's Rugby World Cup training squad, manager Martin Johnson was forced to defend the multi-national flavour of the group.

A headline-grabbing 27% of the 45 players set to challenge for a place in Johnson's final 30-man squad were born overseas - a fact 'celebrated' by the latest edition of Scrum Sevens

Australia
Wasps' uncapped scrum-half Joe Simpson was born in Sydney, earning himself the ingenious nickname 'Dingo.' Born to a New Zealand mother and a British father, Simpson was brought up essentially on rugby. Educated in Ealing, Simpson played in the same Richmond youth team as Wasps team-mate Dom Waldouck. Simpson has appeared for England, from the bench against the Australian Barbarians, but it was an uncapped match. With an expected three scrum-half slots available, the rapid Simpson will hope to gatecrash the party and take a seat on the plane to New Zealand.

Kenya
With 20-years of distinguished service under his belt, Simon Shaw is as English as afternoon tea but for the purpose of Scrum Sevens, he ticks the box due to his Nairobi roots. The no-nonsense lock made the switch from Bristol to Wasps in 1997 but not before he had made his debut for England in 1996.
To date he has earned a total of 66 England caps in a 15-year international career and punctuated his CV as a stand-out performer during the 2009 British & Irish Lions' tour to South Africa. The veteran produced arguably one of the greatest second-row performances against the Springboks in the second Test and will hope to have a similar impact with England in New Zealand later this year by which time he will be 38.

New Zealand
Leicester flanker Thomas Waldrom is the latest Kiwi to be drafted into the England ranks and joins the likes of Riki Flutey, Shontayne Hape and Dylan Hartley in battling for a chance to feature for their adopted country on 'home' soil. Flutey already has 13 Test caps to his name while Hape and Hartley are also squad regulars but the call-up of Tigers No.8 Waldrom will raise the most eyebrows as he has only played one full season in English rugby since his move from the Canterbury Crusaders in the summer of 2010.
Waldrom dropped behind club rival Jordan Crane in the Welford Road pecking order this season but Johnson clearly prefers the New Zealander to the England Saxons captain who led the second string to Churchill Cup glory this year. Crane will be frustrated at missing out despite not venting his feelings publically on Twitter, unlike his fellow back-row Luke Narraway who commented '#notbittermuch'.

Samoa
While four of his brothers have turned out for Samoa, Manu Tuilagi has long-since pledged his international future to England - but it took a fight with the Home Office to prove his allegiance. Tuilagi had a remarkable 2010-11 season, appearing for the Tigers on 20 occasions and scoring seven tries in the process. After featuring for the Saxons in February, it looked like Tuilagi would be a key asset to the Saxons' Churchill Cup campaign, but following a disagreement with Chris Ashton's jaw, Tuilagi missed out due to suspension.
On his day, Tuilagi has the brawn and ability to trouble even the most battle-hardened of defences, but his lack of big match experience and doubts over his ability to stay cool in pressure situations may count against him.

South Africa
W.B.Thomson, born in Zimbabwe, was the first Southern African-born player to represent England at rugby union back in 1892 and since then England have benefitted from their southern hemisphere rivals with the most famous export being Port Elizabeth-born Mike Catt. Other South African born players including Stuart Abbott, Michael Horak, Geoff Appleford and Nick Abendanon have followed Catt into the national side in recent years.
South African-born players have a strong representation in Johnson's 45-man squad with Saracens' Matt Stevens and Mouritz Botha receiving a call up alongside Sale's Hendre Fourie. Stevens will hope to pull on an England shirt for the first time in three years during their World Cup warm-up in August while Fourie enjoyed game time during the 2011 Six Nations. Botha's call-up is in all likelihood at the expense of former England captain and Saracens team-mate Steve Borthwick, but Botha's consistency will have impressed the former lock Johnson.

Trinidad
Delon Armitage, born in San Fernando, was the first West Indian to play for England. Armitage moved to Roquefort-les-Pins on the French Riviera in 1996 and began to play for Rugby Nice Cote d'Azur Universite-Racing. After being rejected from the French U16s, Armitage moved back to London and re-joined Richmond before being picked up by his current club London Irish.
Armitage made his debut for England against the Pacific Islanders in 2008 and has accumulated 19 caps since. Armitage and his flanker brother Steffon, also born in the Caribbean, were the first brothers to play for England since the Underwood's when they took the field against Italy in 2009. Having had a season disrupted due to disciplinary problems, Armitage has much to prove on and off the field.

USA
The New York-born 22-year-old Alex Corbisiero has featured for London Irish since the 2008-09 season and his Test debut in this year's Six Nations capped a meteoric rise for the prop who is partial to some impromptu rapping. Having played age-grade rugby and featured for the Saxons, it was fitting that Italian-American Corbisiero made his debut against the Azzurri where he ably coped with Martin Castrogiovanni. He will face competition from the returning Andrew Sheridan for a space in the XV for England, but the 22 year-old should be on the plane to New Zealand having acquitted himself well on the four occasions he has pulled on the red rose jersey.

http://www.espnscrum.com/england/rugby/story/142113.html
 
I think people need to get over the overseas players. We are where we are and management are right to select players who are eligible if they feel that they are the best options. The debate should be over whether or not those chosen are good enough or better than the alternatives

Joke selections:
Tim Payne - What does Jonny Golding have to do to get a look in?
Louis Deacon - Goerge Robson had as good a season as any lock in the Premiership.
Simon Shaw - Older than Thomas Waldrom's nan. Dave Attwood?
Mouritz Botha - Not even as good as his much maligned team mate, Steve Borthwick.
Hendre Fourie - One good season last year. Anonymous in a **** team this year. James Gaskell?
Joe Worsley - See Shaw comment. Andy Saull? Magnus Lund?
Thomas Waldrom - Leicester bias and not as good as Narraway.
Delon Armitage - Mike Brown? Alex Goode? Nick Abendanon? Freddie Burns? Or any number of others. Possibly the worst selection in the squad given the strength in depth at FB.
Ugo Monye - Great athlete but hands like t!ts. Tom Biggs had a cracking season. Topsy Ojo if you want a pure speedster?

And now to the centres :(
Flutey and Tindall - spent more time on the treatment table than on the pitch. Neither is anywhere near up to standard. WHAT THE **** DOES BRAD BARRITT HAVE TO DO TO BE GIVEN A CHANCE?!
Hape & Banahan - two awful alternatives to the above. Wasps were **** all season, but one thing they do not struggle to do is score tries when they get enough ball on firm pitches. Dom Waldouck should have been in an England squad yonks ago. Jordan Turner-Hall and George Lowe showed more for Quins since Jan than the four selected did between them all season. Given the obsession with Leicester... at least Allen can get over the gainline. Billy Twelvetrees has a step and a big boot.

The only positives are JSD, Robshaw & Sharples. In an extended 45 man squad, that is criminal and I've little doubt they'll be among the first names to be cut.
 
People also realise England / UK is a multi-cultural society and its not surprising to me at least that there are players of different backgrounds in the team. What I don't like (Wales has been guilty in the past) selecting players who are not English or of English decent. It infuriates me that Hape is allowed to play for England after playing Rugby League for another Nation.
 
Joke selections:
Tim Payne - What does Jonny Golding have to do to get a look in?
Louis Deacon - Goerge Robson had as good a season as any lock in the Premiership.
Simon Shaw - Older than Thomas Waldrom's nan. Dave Attwood?
Mouritz Botha - Not even as good as his much maligned team mate, Steve Borthwick.
Hendre Fourie - One good season last year. Anonymous in a **** team this year. James Gaskell?
Joe Worsley - See Shaw comment. Andy Saull? Magnus Lund?
Thomas Waldrom - Leicester bias and not as good as Narraway.
Delon Armitage - Mike Brown? Alex Goode? Nick Abendanon? Freddie Burns? Or any number of others. Possibly the worst selection in the squad given the strength in depth at FB.
Ugo Monye - Great athlete but hands like t!ts. Tom Biggs had a cracking season. Topsy Ojo if you want a pure speedster?

And now to the centres :(
Flutey and Tindall - spent more time on the treatment table than on the pitch. Neither is anywhere near up to standard. WHAT THE **** DOES BRAD BARRITT HAVE TO DO TO BE GIVEN A CHANCE?!
Hape & Banahan - two awful alternatives to the above. Wasps were **** all season, but one thing they do not struggle to do is score tries when they get enough ball on firm pitches. Dom Waldouck should have been in an England squad yonks ago. Jordan Turner-Hall and George Lowe showed more for Quins since Jan than the four selected did between them all season. Given the obsession with Leicester... at least Allen can get over the gainline. Billy Twelvetrees has a step and a big boot.
While I agree in principle, I don't agree with some of your replacements :p

I'd have Matt Mullan in over Golding, he's been playing well for Worcester and then performed for the Saxons too - Will also have a bit of cohesion with Stevens from the Saxons too
Attwood would be there, but he's out injured until the end of the summer, so couldn't take part in any warm ups or training camps
Borthwick shouldn't be anywhere near any side
I disagree on Fourie, think he's played very well for Leeds - However I don't get his inclusion - He's a straight up 7, and he's not going to be Englands starting 7, so he's not very good for the bench spot. Gaskells not a very good Flanker though (though could be alright off the bench as cover for lock/flank)
Agree on the rest, especially the centres (though Waldouck is out injured for a while after doing his Achilles in) - I also don't understand Armitages inclusion, wasn't performing for LI this season, hasn't performed for England since his debut season (2009 Six Nations, was it?) - Mike Brown has been on fire this season, Goode and Burns would also be better choices (especially if Johnson is looking for players who aren't just a fullback, as they both play 10, much like Armitage playing 13)
 
is all the non-english getting picked really negative as it is being portrayed?

in cricket, the poms have borrowed heavily from other countries. do the likes of Trott, KP and Strauss play with any less passion and determination than their proper English counterparts? Trott has one of the best averages for test cricket, hardly fitting of someone who is not playing with pride in the country. Would Pieterson have scored that remarkable century in the Oval test in '05 to win the Ashes if he was not passionate about england. would Strauss have been able to lead his team to back to back Ashes triumphs if he didn't care about England?

Other sports such as cricket have shown that the colonials perform just as well (and sometimes better) as the fullblooded poms, so start looking forward to their contributions to the English RWC 2011 campaign
 
Seriously, what was Johnston thinking picking players from New Zealand and Samoa? If history has shown us anything, teams composed of New Zealand and Samoans notoriously choke at the RWC ;)

No major surprises in the squad for me, though I've got no real idea who Botha is... what happened to David Attwood, I thought he looked promising? Glad to see Chris Robshaw there, I hope he makes the final squad (though I suspect he will miss out).

History has also shown us that the last time the ABs won a world cup, a young and gifted rugby player by the name of Michael Jones took the rugby world by storm and later, became one of the games greats!! Oh, he was Samoan... And there was another Samoan in the team by the name of Joe Smokin Stanley. So if history were to repeat itself, this will be the year of the All Blacks. Eden Park reminiscing of 1987.

Good call by Martin Johnston on selecting Manu Tuilagi. He will be a major threat to any team and the prospect of the Abs and England meeting up in the finals. Tuilagi vs Nonu - Dynamite!! : )
 
It's a shame that the first time England and Samoa could meet is the Semis, would've loved to have seen Manu vs Alesana :D
 
The squad isn't too suprising. there weren't ever going to be people missing from winning the 6 Nations.
He has then added the premierships two best players in Tualigi and Waldrom along with Sharples and botha. Building up to the rugby World cup takes years so you suddenly can't bring in too many untested players.
I would get rid of hape if it wasn't a world cup. i think Flutey is a bettter option with Manu outside him

Here's a good article on all the overseas born players picked for England training Squad

http://talkingrugbyunion.co.uk/international-teams/foreign-players-for-england
 
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