England vs South Africa 20 / 11 / 2021

[Duck a l'Orange]

And that's exactly what I don't want to see happen to any of Blamire / Dolly / Rodd if they get schooled tomorrow. Lot of potential and slightly older than Isiekwe was, but extremely raw in experience terms.

Dom Barrow retired from rugby after being dropped by Eddie without warning after being named in an extended squad.

Jones and his mind games aren't as smart as he thinks.

 

[Not Mike Brown's Sock]

Dom Barrow retired from rugby after being dropped by Eddie without warning after being named in an extended squad.

Jones and his mind games aren't as smart as he thinks.

If Dom Barrow legitimately retired because he didn't get in one squad then that says it all about his likelihood of long term success tbh

 

[Which Tyler]

Dom Barrow retired from rugby after being dropped by Eddie without warning after being named in an extended squad.

Jones and his mind games aren't as smart as he thinks.

If that's causative rather than correlative - then it says far more about Barrow than Jones

 

[BPM]

How about Falcons first choice, McGuigan? Or Dunn / Taylor as a horses for courses selection for this one match. All are a lot more experienced which may matter with our prop situation.

It's a great opportunity for Blamire and he might have an international future. If things don't go well though there's always the risk of Jones pulling 'an Isiekwe' and casting him into the wilderness on the basis of very little. I'd hate for that to happen to Blamire or anyone else.

I'd have had McGuigan involved for the past year or so. I think he's good enough and if the Munster rumours are true, I reckon he'll go to the RWC with Ireland.

That being said, Blamire has plenty of promise and has shown up well for England so far. I accept that starting against the Boks is a big step up from playing the USA, Canada, Tonga and a half against Australia, but we can only judge him on what we've seen to date.

Re. the 'casting in to the wilderness' … that didn't happen to Furbank. Arguably he had way more of a shocker on his debut than Isiekwe and still gets the call-ups. He even started at 10 2wks ago!

 

[MikeTheNative]

I had to look that Barrow thing up and it's a bit disingenuous to say Jones dropping him caused him to retire. The quote from him regarding it is;


"It was nothing to do with depression, mental health or anything like that, although there are always highs and lows in the game. Missing out on the 2017 tour of Argentina was one of those low points – a crushing blow in many respects – because I'd been named in an initial squad and had been speaking to the coaches regularly, but when the squad was announced I wasn't in it.

"I'd had no prior indication, nothing. I didn't know until it was announced so that was one of the hardest times and I found it difficult to get over. I'd been proud of what I'd achieved with Leeds, England U20s, Newcastle and Leicester and I'd played very well the season prior to that, but from then on I found my motivations changing as business opportunities came along."

He was rather disappointed at getting dropped but after that started to focus on things outside rugby and wants to pursue that now.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

How England & Boks have changed since 2019

Two years have passed since South Africa beat England in the Rugby World Cup final - so what has changed to make Saturday's meeting so different?

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Duck a l'Orange]

If Dom Barrow legitimately retired because he didn't get in one squad then that says it all about his likelihood of long term success tbh

I understand the sentiment, but strongly disagree.

For one, I simplified too much - MikeTheNative's post is a better summary. For another, a lot of these players are at the peak of their physical and mental capability - or they wouldn't be near playing for England. They're putting in massive amounts of work and being dropped from a squad is - a cliché, but probably for a reason - "a crushing blow". I remember how cut up I was about my A level results...

A bit more warning from Jones before the squad announcement would be the basest courtesy in my opinion. Demonstrably, what he did there backfired.

 

[spartan32]

I really hope these new lads don't get "cast into the wilderness" if they have a hard time tomorrow, but I'd be more interested to see what happens if they have a great game and put one over on SA. What does Jones do then? Do the old guard get cast aside for the bright young things? Given Jones record of failing to champion up coming talent in fear not, which would be a real shame.

Don't ask me why, but I have a good feeling about this game. Can't justify it at all. Just a sense that this fresh faced England side with everything to prove are going to want it more than a tired SA at the end of their season, who have nothing to prove.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

I really hope these new lads don't get "cast into the wilderness" if they have a hard time tomorrow, but I'd be more interested to see what happens if they have a great game and put one over on SA. What does Jones do then? Do the old guard get cast aside for the bright young things? Given Jones record of failing to champion up coming talent in fear not, which would be a real shame.

Don't ask me why, but I have a good feeling about this game. Can't justify it at all. Just a sense that this fresh faced England side with everything to prove are going to want it more than a tired SA at the end of their season, who have nothing to prove.

If Blamire and Rodd hold up well that's a huge tick in their development box but if everyone's fit they'll still be behind Marler / Genge and George / LCD in my book. But the more competition the better.

We ought to be investing in Smith and Steward regardless.

Huge opportunity for Marchant. Tough on Radwan but certainly an opportunity on that wing until Watson returns.

With Faz injured and probably out for at least some of the 6N that midfield, which looks good on paper, has the chance to cement itself. Manu plays regardless and hopefully Smith now does so the pressure's on Slade a bit and Marchant will also be eyeing up the 13 shirt.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

As a matter of interest, how many players have had a bad first or second outing under Jones but then persisted and become invaluable in the team? I may be wrong but it does feel like if you aren't impressing instantly, you're done.

 

[BPM]

Jonny Hill's probably the best example. His debut was poor and his rate of improvement has been pretty slow. You could argue he's there as a result of injuries and a lack of other suitable options, but there's also an argument to say that Eddie sees something in him.

Others like Furbank and Lawrence have been underwhelming but have mostly managed to keep in/around the squad. Hill's the only recent one that springs to mind with a decent run in he side. Brad Shields was another (although ironically, I'd object a lot less now).

In any case, I wouldn't say it's an Eddie Jones thing. Generally, depth and competition is strong enough that if a player doesn't seize their chance, someone else might.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Yeah Hill is the first one that springs to mind but when the next choice at tighthead lock is Ewells you get cut some slack

Furbank is the most surprising one as there's plenty of other players in competition for his spot but he keeps making training squads (/getting game time)

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Hill is fair enough, although as Olyy said, if Ewels is currently the next cab off the rank it might make sense. Hill feels like he could work great in partnership with Itoje if things click a bit more but it doesn't feel he is hitting his potential. Possibly room for him to bulk up a bit more at fill that heavy duty lock role that we haven't been able to properly fill since Kruis left.

 

[Lé Ddanno]

Daly sticks in my mind a bit. His first caps were underwhelming in 2016, and at the end of the year he got red carded withing 10 minutes (in his debut at wing vs SA if memory serves). After that he went well at wing for a while until the FB ... thing.

 

[Pom in Exile]

His form has fallen off a cliff.
Last year he was rightly benching for England, but Eddie didn't trust him, and we fans didn't know why.
I can only conclude that Eddie saw something the rest of us didn't.
Dunn has been terrible this year

Coincidence?

 

[Pom in Exile]

I really hope these new lads don't get "cast into the wilderness" if they have a hard time tomorrow, but I'd be more interested to see what happens if they have a great game and put one over on SA. What does Jones do then? Do the old guard get cast aside for the bright young things? Given Jones record of failing to champion up coming talent in fear not, which would be a real shame.

Don't ask me why, but I have a good feeling about this game. Can't justify it at all. Just a sense that this fresh faced England side with everything to prove are going to want it more than a tired SA at the end of their season, who have nothing to prove.

Sadly the whole Erasmus debacle feeds the Saffers 'us against the world' mentality and this weekend…we are 'the world'.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Sadly the whole Erasmus debacle feeds the Saffers 'us against the world' mentality and this weekend…we are 'the world'.

Plus a fair seem to think it was the RFU that handed out the ban rather than WR.

 

[Which Tyler]

As a matter of interest, how many players have had a bad first or second outing under Jones but then persisted and become invaluable in the team? I may be wrong but it does feel like if you aren't impressing instantly, you're done.

Henry Slade as wel. Not as bad as Hill's early matches, but has yet to reach the heights that his club form and skill levels suggest he should, and his first few were pretty poor; whilst his competition for the shirt was much stronger.

 

[Nudger]

Game day feel excited if not apprehensive just hope we hold our own scrum time

 

[unrated]

Game day feel excited if not apprehensive just hope we hold our own scrum time

Also very excited about the game. going to braai some steaks, get some beer and salads going and enjoy the spectacle.

It's a rather big game, people are organizing Braais all over the place and it has been a big topic of discussion over the week whether that's in work circles or radio and Tv media.