England World Cup Training Squad

[Scotty]

Aren't they?



Well that's quite possible

McConnochie will turn 28 during the RWC, has 12 starts for Barf and never played representative 15s. Irrespective of his club season even having him as first reserve would be a massive leap of faith.

I dont remember him having an amazing season to warrant a call up to a world cup squad first reserve, hes been good but not amazing as he? He has talent no question but still not sure id be happy calling on him in world cup play offs.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

I dont remember him having an amazing season to warrant a call up to a world cup squad first reserve, hes been good but not amazing as he? He has talent no question but still not sure id be happy calling on him in world cup play offs.

I can't see him challenging the likes of May, Nowell, Daly, Cokonasiga and Watson but I'd say he deserves to be in there ahead of the rest of our wingers. I'd probably have gone for Ashton over him but seeing as he removed himself from contention who are the other real contenders? Bassett and O'Conor played the Babaas game; he's better than both of those. I'd also have him above Solomona, whose defence I still don't have confidence in.

It isn't a case of whether McConnochie's 'amazing' or not, it's whether he's our next best wing option after the incumbents, which I think he probably is. That said, I would much rather have Brown in there over him, as Daly/Watson can move to a wing if someone goes down.

McConnochie does have the tools to be a good international. He's rapid and very strong under the high ball. I imagine he'll get game time in the warm-ups so it'll be interesting to see how he gets on.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Solomona's defence has been spot on the second half of this season - he started poorly and was having major off field issues, he sorted his head out after Christmas and has been our best back (bar Luke James). Ended the season top try scorer despite starting so poorly.

Either way he had surgery a few weeks ago so he wasn't in contention anyway.


I don't understand McConnochie's inclusion this close to a world cup, but if he's just there to hold tackle bags I guess he's probably next man off the rank. If he's in genuine contention for a spot it's a bit weirder - as above: He's been good but nowhere near good enough that you're like "Hell yeah, drop Nowell or Joe and take this lad to Japan instead!"

 

[sCriv]

Forwards
Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers, 85 caps)
Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs, 11 caps)
Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, 10 caps)
Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby, 10 caps)
Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers, 9 caps)
Jamie George (Saracens, 37 caps)
Maro Itoje (Saracens, 27 caps)
Joe Launchbury (Wasps, 58 caps)
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 71 caps)
Lewis Ludlam (Northampton Saints, uncapped)
Joe Marler (Harlequins, 59 caps)
Ben Moon (Exeter Chiefs, 8 caps)
Brad Shields (Wasps, 8 caps)
Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins, 22 caps)
Jack Singleton (Saracens, uncapped)
Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby 9 caps)
Billy Vunipola (Saracens, 41 caps)
Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs, 17 caps)
Mark Wilson (Sale Sharks, 13 caps)

Backs
Danny Cipriani (Gloucester Rugby, 16 caps)
Joe Cokanasiga (Bath Rugby, 4 caps)
Elliot Daly (Saracens, 30 caps)
Owen Farrell (Saracens, 70 caps)
George Ford (Leicester Tigers, 55 caps)
Piers Francis (Northampton Saints, 4 caps)
Willi Heinz (Gloucester Rugby, uncapped)
Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby, 40 caps)
Jonny May (Leicester Tigers, 45 caps)
Ruaridh McConnochie (Bath Rugby, uncapped)
Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 22 caps)
Ben Spencer (Saracens, 3 caps)
Ben Te'o (unattached, 18 caps)
Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers, 32 caps)
Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby, 33 caps)
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 85 caps)

In camp for rehabilitation
George Kruis (Saracens, 32 caps)
Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs, 33 caps)
Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 53 caps)


First thoughts:

1.) Surprised at no Mike Brown or Alex Goode (Goode less so), but the inclusion of Watson who was injured all season until only April?
Rather mind-boggled by this decision, even though he's looked pretty sharp since then. Not convinced he's had enough game time to deserve a place in the squad.
I can understand the arguments against including Goode (though personally I would have brought him at least in the training squad after the season he's had) but I cannot understand at all why Brown has been left out. Imo he's been both our best and most reliable 15. Seems to me to be our safest pair of hands for those high balls and I can't understand why he isn't there.

2.) Delighted that Spencer is named in the squad, but baffled how Heinz is picked over Care, especially when you consider Care has been Eddie's go to back-up scrum half since forever. After arguably his best season, Eddie drops him for the WC?
Seems odd to me. Ironically, I'd rather have had him drop Youngs and bring Care.

3.) Personally happy that Cipriani is named in the squad. I know this is a very divisive topic in English rugby at the moment, and I can understand the arguments against his inclusion, but I believe that Cipriani, even though he has under-performed for England in the past, offers something uniquely different to what other English fly-halves offer - the creative spark he has, and ability to open up a defence is something I think we personally could do with.
I wouldn't be starting him, but I definitely would have him there as a secret weapon late on in a game when we need something different. For me, he offers more than George Ford.

4.) My inner Saint is loving that both Ludlam and Francis have made the squad, but at the same time, I don't think either of them should be there. Ludlam has had a great breakthrough season, but he is more of a 7, and I'm pretty sure Curry has that spot pinned down after the season he's had. Francis I don't really understand at all, and there's 2 or 3 centres I'd have picked over him.

5.) Not quite sure how Shields is in but Dombrandt is left out? Dombrandt has had a phenomenal season, and did well for the baa-baa's. I'd have liked to have seen him there instead, but not a huge issue.

6.) I really struggle to think of one decent reason why Ben Te'o should be in the squad other than simply that Eddie likes him. He's had a pretty average season as well. Like with Francis, there's 2 or 3 centres I'd have liked to have seen over him.

7.) Dan Cole in yet another England squad. Why? He's been atrocious this year and offers us nothing imo.



Assuming Kruis, Nowell and Mako are all fit, we're looking at 7 players getting cut.

Knowing Eddie, he is likely going to stick with his tried and trusted stalwarts, and therefore I expect him to cut Ludlam, Francis, McConnochie, Heinz, Cipriani, Singleton and Shields.

Personally, though, I would be cutting Cole, Te'o, Ford, Heinz, Francis, Ludlam and McConnochie.

 

[Which Tyler]

He's had a very good season for Bath; and he also has an olmpic silver medal - so his ability to translate his game to the top level is not in question.
He's behind May, Daly, Watson, Nowell, and Coka on the wing, and behind Watson and Brown at FB (my jury still being out on Daly there) - but yes, I'd have him as the next man behind that lot 9bearing in mind my bias).
Yes, he'll be 28 at the RWC - so right in his physical peak - not quite sure I understand why this would be a count against him; it's not like he's been overlooked for the last 8 years or anything.

I'm not saying I'd take him to the RWC barring injury; but he's done enough to deserve a shot (as have several others, but it's not like there's a huge amount to chose between say McConnochie, Thorley & Solomona). IF he gets some time in the warm-ups, and shows well, why shouldn't he get a shot? He's there as a potential bolter and a back-up plan, not as a first choice starter in a RWC knock-out match.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

He's had a very good season for Bath; and he also has an olmpic silver medal - so his ability to translate his game to the top level is not in question.
He's behind May, Daly, Watson, Nowell, and Coka on the wing, and behind Watson and Brown at FB (my jury still being out on Daly there) - but yes, I'd have him as the next man behind that lot 9bearing in mind my bias).
Yes, he'll be 28 at the RWC - so right in his physical peak - not quite sure I understand why this would be a count against him; it's not like he's been overlooked for the last 8 years or anything.

Has he played any 15 this season? Personally think him at 15 with Watson on the wing looks better than vice versa.

 

[Which Tyler]

Has he played any 15 this season? Personally think him at 15 with Watson on the wing looks better than vice versa.

Yes, but not much.

 

[FLOBALOB]

Anytime i saw bath last season, I always thought Mconnochie looked like their best Back 3 player, so for me ,if he's going to get on the plane it'll be at Cokanasingas expense.I would have thought its highly unlikely EJ would pick 2 virtual interational novices in the same position .That is assuming everyone is fit, of course.

 

[hbijbjon]

Based on that squad and the injures I think the world cup squad will look like this -
LHP: Joe Marler, Ellis Genge, Mako Vunipola
HK: Jamie George, Luke Cowan-Dickie
THP: Kyle Sinckler, Dan Cole, Harry Williams
LK: Maro Itoje, Joe Launchbury, Courtney Lawes, George Kruis
FL: Tom Curry, Sam Underhill, Brad Shields,
#8: Billy Vunipola, Mark Wilson

SH: Ben Youngs, Ben Spencer,
FH: Owen Farrell, George Ford, Danny Cipriani
CE: Henry Slade, Manu Tuilagi, Jonathan Joseph, Ben Te'o
WG: Jonny May, Joe Cokanasiga, Jack Nowell
FB: Elliot Daly, Anthony Watson

So to be honest outside of Shields and Te'o that pretty much what I'd go for. Shield I don't hate as others as he can cover 4-8 as the 31st squad man. Moon will be very unlucky to not go but I think Marler is better.

Good Squad Choice

Having only 2 hookers is way too risky

I'd remove Te'o from the squad and add a 3rd hooker in Jack Singleton

I like a 18-13 split regarding Forwards and Backs

Shields playing for England is a disgusting sight to see and examples like him are
why I side with Pichot regarding the International game

No wants to see 2nd rate mercenaries shopping around to play for countries of convenience

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Shields would be fine by Pichot as both his parents are English.

I don't like him/the situation around him playing for England, but he's as eligible as anyone really.

 

[hbijbjon]

Shields would be fine by Pichot as both his parents are English.

I don't like him/the situation around him playing for England, but he's as eligible as anyone really.

But lets be frank Shields is a 2nd rate Kiwi

If he was good enough he would be playing for New Zealand

He was born & raised in NZ, played U20 rugby for NZ and spent 8 years playing pro rugby there

He's a lot like Gareth Anscombe - same background as Shields

I despise this sort of cynical manipulation Int'l rugby is not a entitlement

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Well yeah, that's the common opinion of him.

All I was saying that Pichots law wouldn't cover him.

 

[Scotty]

Shields doesnt bother me too much in a eligibility sense as he has 2 English parents who chose to live out there, he didnt it just happened to be where he grew up, im sure if mako billy manu and hughes all got told in no uncertein terms they wernt good enough for england they would have gone to their respective countries, regardless if they have grown up here since there there young. It just happens.

Shields it purely buggs me because he hasnt earned his place, alot like teo, his club form hasnt been great to earn him the place.

 

[Which Tyler]

Shields doesnt bother me too much in a eligibility sense as he has 2 English parents who chose to live out there, he didnt it just happened to be where he grew up, im sure if mako billy manu and hughes all got told in no uncertein terms they wernt good enough for england they would have gone to their respective countries, regardless if they have grown up here since there there young. It just happens.

Shields it purely buggs me because he hasnt earned his place, alot like teo, his club form hasnt been great to earn him the place.

Exactly this. He got into the England team before he'd arrived in England; and he's stayed in the England team despite half a dozen players doing better than him in the same position.

 

[Every Time Ref]

I'd genuinely have 2015 Sam Burgess ahead of Teo

 

[Which Tyler]

I'd genuinely have 2015 Sam Burgess ahead of Teo

Would be a close run thing between 2015 [Redacted] and 2019 Shields

 

[Nudger]

I'd genuinely have 2015 Sam Burgess ahead of Teo

I prefer 2019 brad barret dont shoot me haha

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

I prefer 2019 brad barret dont shoot me haha

Me too. Barrett wasn't bad, he was just uninspiring. Defence could not be faulted though.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Exactly this. He got into the England team before he'd arrived in England; and he's stayed in the England team despite half a dozen players doing better than him in the same position.

Possibly.

But the argument that players playing well for clubs has a 1:1 carryover to internationals doesn't stand up, as I'm sure you'd agree.

I simply don't accept that Shields has played badly at international level, he's certainly an improvement over Robshaw.

 

[Jimbo]

Possibly.

But the argument that players playing well for clubs has a 1:1 carryover to internationals doesn't stand up, as I'm sure you'd agree.

I simply don't accept that Shields has played badly at international level, he's certainly an improvement over Robshaw.

I wouldn't say shields has played badly for England but I wouldn't exactly say he's been exceptional either.