England's Argetine Adventure

[j'nuh]

A player I completely forgot about, who is quality and should be involved is Haydn Thomas. Very underrated player! Think it should be him, Simpson and Care to Argentina.

 

[Crapspray]

He did specifically mention 5-7 players though, so it's not just one or two, if correct.

Five to seven sounds about right. Of the official EPS, not going with the Lions, I think I'd leave behind Ashton, Goode, Stettle, Dickson, Waldrom, Johnson, and Haskell. They're too "established". Which opens places for Wade, Daly, May, Simpson, Vunipola, Fraser, and Kvesic repectively.

A player I completely forgot about, who is quality and should be involved is Haydn Thomas. Very underrated player! Think it should be him, Simpson and Care to Argentina.

Worth a shot, at least midweek, I do have the ****ling fear that we'll see Care, Dickson, and Wigglesworth tour. I wouldn't mourn the absence of the latter two.


Oh, and there's this:


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/ru...gland-tour-Argentina-place-Chris-Robshaw.html


It is from the Daily Wail, not exactly the bastion of accurate and balanced journalism, but I could see it happening. Particularly since Wood was originally first choice. I could also understand Robshaw being rested given his recent injury.

 

[McTallshort]

^Think Robshaw needs a rest and it would be good to test a new captain. Would like to see Kvesic, May and Wade get game time but most of all want Burns and 36 to show what they can do together in an England shirt.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

I think that given the tonking we got by Wales, the management will see this as a future investment.

If I see Wilson starting games at tighthead I will be mad.Same goes for Ashton, Goode and all the other shitters.

1. Mullan
2. Webber
3. Swainston
4. Attwood
5. Slater
6. Wood
7. Fraser
8. Vunipola

9. Simpson
10. Burns
11. May
12. Twelvetrees
13. Joseph
14. Wade
15. Foden

16. Thomas
17 Marler
18. Buchanan
19. Lawes
20. kvesic
21. Care
22. Flood
23. Daly

For me it's all about the balance between trying out and blooding new players, whilst keeping a modicum of experience in the squad. That's the only reason why I'd bother taking someone like Flood who clearly isn't the future. I think this tour is also a great opportunity for some of our 10-20 capped players to become leaders. I'd say that Lawes, Marler, Twelvetrees can become such leaders. (With Wood captain) There's also the issue of giving previous first choice players the chance to re-stake a claim - that's why Flood and Corbisiero have to go.

I wouldn't bother taking Launchbury, I think he's proved himself and now might as well just take a rest.

 

[ratsapprentice]

What's Wilson done wrong? Him and Cole have been significantly better that all the other EQP TH's this season, and he's not had a poor game for England yet...
Besides, I think he's only started one game for England, allow him to show what he can do over 80 minutes.
He's a significantly better ball carrier than Cole and slightly better scrummager, although his workrate in defense isn't as good and obviously doesn't have the jackaling skills of Cole.
I would like to see someone else come through to put pressure on both of them, but no-one is even close to them IMO. Pretty much all the prospects we have are terrible scrummagers.

 

[Crapspray]

I don't think there's the need for such an overhaul in the forwards. Bar the Wales game, they've done well under Lancaster. There's a need for improvement in the set-piece, but in the loose, over the last six months, they've been fairly good. A big ******* in the second row and a fetcher should solve the two biggest weaknesses.

The major problem is the backs. The current set are incapable of attack. For me the most important aim of this tour is to get the backs attacking properly. Sort out the the horrendous back three (Wade alone has now scored more tries this season than all three combined) and bring in some creativity at 10 and 12. If England's game loosened-up it would suit the forwards they have- lightweight and athletic, with good motors.

The supposed aim of top sides is to score three tries a game; England should aim to do that against Argentina. Until that becomes the norm, changing the forwards is shuffling deck chairs.

 

[ratsapprentice]

A big ******* in the second row and a fetcher should solve the two biggest weaknesses.

I agree, the good thing is that we have two guys who could fill each position very nicely (Attwood/Slater and Kvesic/Fraser).
We also need to pick a specialist, ball carrying number 8, but again we have two clear favorites for that position in Morgan and Vunipola.

The situation in the backs seems pretty self inflicted to be honest. Not picking the form EQP players and playing those they have picked, out of position is killing our chances of scoring tries.
That and the unimaginative use of the strengths we do have (pass it Manu).

 

[TommyVercetti]

Seeing as following the Lions announcement my team is now out of date. :lol:

1 Joe Marler
2 Rob Webber
3 Dave Wilson

4 Joe Launchbury (If ends up being called up for Lions as injury replacement, Courtney Lawes)
5 Dave Attwood

6 Tom Wood (If ends up being called up for Lions as injury replacement, Chris Robshaw)
8 Billy Vunipola
7 Will Fraser

9 Danny Care (If ends up being called up for Lions as injury replacement, Joe Simpson)
10 Freddie Burns

12 Billy Twelvetrees
13 Jonathan Joseph

11 Jonny May
15 Mike Brown
14 Christian Wade

16 Alex Corbisiero (First choice, but needs to be edged back in to international rugby)
17 Tom Lindsay
18 Henry Thomas
19 Ed Slater
20 Chris Robshaw (If ends up starting or called up for Lions as injury replacement, David Seymour)

21 Joe Simpson (If ends up starting, Lee Dickson)
22 Toby Flood
23 Elliot Daly

Think Ben Morgan could do with the summer off. Robshaw to a lesser extent too but I've still included him, I think he'll end up on the Lions tour anyway.

Honourable mentions and a few unlucky to miss out on Premiership form: Matt Kvesic, Nick Easter, Anthony Allen, Kyle Eastmond, David Strettle, Tom Varndell.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Just to clarify - nothing against Wilson, but I feel that this is an opportunity to blood new guys. Wilson won't be around that much longer, and cole asides which other established tight heads are there?

 

[ratsapprentice]

The trouble is that we know exactly what will happen if we bring one of the younger TH's along as first choice, they will be scrummed off the park, and that will seriously damage the rest of the team's chance to perform.
Wilson will still be around for another 2-3 years at least.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Wilson's only a couple of years older than Cole, he'll potentially still be going in 7-8 years.
I'd have no problem with him starting, he's been having a great season.

 

[McTallshort]

Can anyone tell me why Simpson is so rated? Both Care and Dickson should be available and both IMO are better.

Also we need to start working on another fly half. We currently have 3 of which 2 (Farrell and Flood) are never really going to be world class and while Burns has potential there is no one knocking on the door to push him. Ford was meant to be the next big thing but he has had a dire season and I am not sure he will come back. Suggestions anyone?

 

[Crapspray]

Can anyone tell me why Simpson is so rated? Both Care and Dickson should be available and both IMO are better.

For me it's not so much that he's higher rated, (though I do think he's better than Dickson) but that he's not been given any sort of a chance in an England shirt. He also offers a greater emphasis on speed of delivery (in fairness, so does Dickson) rather than side-stepping and sniping. Youngs and Care I'd say are better all-round, but far too often slow ball down, which makes the already ponderous back line even slower in attack.

In the Six Nations last year we saw England's attack improve dramatically against Wales when Dickson started over Youngs, simply because the ball didn't take three seconds to get from the back of the ruck to the fly-half. I think we'd see that again against Argentina if Simpson, or even Dickson, gets a chance to play. If nothing else, it gives England a different option at scrum-half.

Also we need to start working on another fly half. We currently have 3 of which 2 (Farrell and Flood) are never really going to be world class and while Burns has potential there is no one knocking on the door to push him. Ford was meant to be the next big thing but he has had a dire season and I am not sure he will come back. Suggestions anyone?

I don't think there's any chance of that changing for the foreseeable future. As you said, Ford had an awful time and was particularly bad in the Saxons against Scotland A. I think he'll come good post-2015 RWC and improve at Bath with a back line which is shaping up nicely, not that that helps England. It isn't too bad; with Burns, Farrell, and Flood there are decent options (attack, defence, reliant mix).

I disagree, however, that Farrell hasn't got the potential to be world class. The bipolar nature of opinion seems to divide people into "He's awful!" or "He's the resurrection of St. Jonny!", the reality is that, at the moment, he's somewhere in between. He's still only 21 and has put in very good performances for England and Saracens, though not consistently, and has improved a lot since last year. Here's hoping that the Lion's tour, and time around BOD and Sexton, improves his attacking and running- and that he can avoid the sharp drop in form we saw last summer. In any case, he'll be around England for some time, world class or not.

 

[ratsapprentice]

I'd be curious to see what other England fans priorities are this tour...?
For me, it's in this order:

1. Specialist positions: We need to play people in their strongest position. I understand the need for one or two utility players as you don't have a 15 man bench. But I simply cannot accept that it's a good idea to ask players to continually prepare for a position in which they are not suited. This also means accepting that some of our best players (Robshaw/Wood, Brown/Foden) will need to compete with each other for a single position. It also means selecting a TH Lock instead of three LH Locks, as we are currently with Launchbury, Parling and Lawes. Finally, it also means bringing Kvesic and Fraser out and using them as proper linkmen, rather than just standing 5m out and passing it on or falling to the ground for zero metres gained (as Robshaw currently does). I genuinely believe that the team will benefit hugely from doing this, and is primarily a selection issue not involving a huge amount of active corrections to gameplan.

2. Freddie Burns: The sooner we can rid ourselves of Toby Flood the better imo. Freddie needs to be given the starting berth for all the matches. I would have no issue with Toby Flood and possibly George Ford being taken as the backup, but it is clear to see that Flood simply isn't anything more than mediocre at international level... We need a replacement and Freddie looks more than capable of succeeding him (and Farrell), now we just need to play him.

3. Select on Form: I think that England managers have been far to inflexible in regards to their selection for the past few years. Whilst I understand that keeping faith in players that aren't currently in form can have benefits, there is nothing to say that you cannot bring them back in after dropping them. This is a far healthier method of selection in my mind. I should clarify that this policy should be employed for both immediate, week to week selection, and long term EPS selection.


Edit:

Looks like Flood, Ashton and Robshaw to be left behind.

Kvesic, Tom Johnson, Burns, Ford, Wade, May and Yarde all going.
We can take this as pretty much official... leaks this close to the announcement have always been correct in the past.

 

[Crapspray]

3. Select on Form: I think that England managers have been far to inflexible in regards to their selection for the past few years. Whilst I understand that keeping faith in players that aren't currently in form can have benefits, there is nothing to say that you cannot bring them back in after dropping them. This is a far healthier method of selection in my mind. I should clarify that this policy should be employed for both immediate, week to week selection, and long term EPS selection.

My bold. I think this is Lancaster's main problem. He is usually proactive in bringing new players into the EPS; with the likes of Vunipola and Thomas being brought in during the Six Nations. However, he seems reluctant to use the 32/33-man squad for rotation. The main failure, in my opinion, during the Six Nations was the reluctance to change the side during the tournament. Something which happened in the autumn and last year's summer tour, as well. Plenty of new players were included, but it was rare that anyone would break into the matchday 23.

For me, correcting this is the top priority, coupled somewhat with your first point. England should aim to have an EPS from which they tailor a team for the specific opposition, hence the need for specialists. They not only improve the quality of the team, but give far greater tactical flexibility; something that will be needed in the world cup anyway. It's no good choosing a bench of 8 jacks of all trades when you can select from 18 masters of their own. This tour's main aim should be to find those specialists and then build into the autumn, where they can begin to start tailoring and rotating, with the practice standard by the start of the Six Nations next year.

If the leak is true, then it looks like Lancaster is trying to do just that. The selection of Johnson over Fraser is odd, particularly since Johnson is already in the EPS. We need to find replacements for two flankers, so I hope Fraser is in there. Daly, as well, is another concerning omission. It's good to see the rest selected, it's now whether they actually get played or just hang around the training camp for the duration of the tour. I do hope that some of the older wingers (Strettle and Monye) are left out. If only to make sure that May, Wade, and Yarde get a good shot at winning the shirt. I suppose all will be answered tomorrow.

 

[munstermuffin]

Seems Robshaw Flood and Ashton are getting summer off. Robshaw must be disheartened. Possibly a month ago expected to be spending summer fighting for Lions test cap and now he has nothing only rest

 

[michaelbolton]

I'd be curious to see what other England fans priorities are this tour...?
For me, it's in this order:

1. Specialist positions: We need to play people in their strongest position. I understand the need for one or two utility players as you don't have a 15 man bench. But I simply cannot accept that it's a good idea to ask players to continually prepare for a position in which they are not suited. This also means accepting that some of our best players (Robshaw/Wood, Brown/Foden) will need to compete with each other for a single position. It also means selecting a TH Lock instead of three LH Locks, as we are currently with Launchbury, Parling and Lawes. Finally, it also means bringing Kvesic and Fraser out and using them as proper linkmen, rather than just standing 5m out and passing it on or falling to the ground for zero metres gained (as Robshaw currently does). I genuinely believe that the team will benefit hugely from doing this, and is primarily a selection issue not involving a huge amount of active corrections to gameplan.

2. Freddie Burns: The sooner we can rid ourselves of Toby Flood the better imo. Freddie needs to be given the starting berth for all the matches. I would have no issue with Toby Flood and possibly George Ford being taken as the backup, but it is clear to see that Flood simply isn't anything more than mediocre at international level... We need a replacement and Freddie looks more than capable of succeeding him (and Farrell), now we just need to play him.

3. Select on Form: I think that England managers have been far to inflexible in regards to their selection for the past few years. Whilst I understand that keeping faith in players that aren't currently in form can have benefits, there is nothing to say that you cannot bring them back in after dropping them. This is a far healthier method of selection in my mind. I should clarify that this policy should be employed for both immediate, week to week selection, and long term EPS selection.


Edit:

Looks like Flood, Ashton and Robshaw to be left behind.

Kvesic, Tom Johnson, Burns, Ford, Wade, May and Yarde all going.
We can take this as pretty much official... leaks this close to the announcement have always been correct in the past.

I agree with most of this.
Regarding the bold bit, do you know when the announcement is? I couldnt find it anywhere

 

[ratsapprentice]

Tomorrow morning I believe...

 

[j'nuh]

Yarde is a surprise. Didn't know he was on the radar at all. Expected Lancaster to go with 5 or so of May, Wade, Thompstone, Biggs, Strettle, Ashton, Goode, Brown, Foden.

 

[Peat]

What is the point of Tom Johnson?