France vs England

[Bernard]

Just to explain this Bullshit stuff about Bastaraud : he is not singing the Marseillaise ..it is why there are assholes that are sending some bullshit emails...Like because you are not singing the national anthem, you would be less french ! that is a big bullshit ! i feel so french and even if i was not singing the marseillaise , i would feel french too. I do not see the relation. But some dumb people are making this sort of crap relation...

Since the governement has decided to make the national identity a central question in france , a lot of racists or xenophobic guys are mixing everything and they feel like everything is permitted, like they can say everything....Thanks Sarkozy for opening the pandora's box ! Sarkozy has been elected for a part because he did not hesitate "to steal" some ideas to the Front National (Le pen) and all this national identity question is a part of that.

For brit and irish, it is difficult to compare what is happenning here in UK and ireland and what is hapening in France. In France , we are very centralised (Paris) in a administrative and nation POV but as well , there is a lot of differences on a cultural POV between Frenchies. lots of different regions , cultures and languages so you can find in some part of France some guys who won't sing the marseillaise by principle (basque country , corsica or britanny) , just to make the point that they feel french but as well they feel Corse , basque or breton (even some angry guys can think that France is an invader..yeah yeah even today there are some... ) ...you have the same principle in Guadeloupe, martinique or reunion. So it creates something strange ... because of this centralization (and history as well) that makes the fact to be french important but at the same time , you feel different because you come from some specific regionalism (i'm breton for example..and it makes me special in a way..i'm french and breton..Maybe scot or wales could have the same feeling here in UK).

Living in UK, i'm always surprised how you brit are patriotics , we are defnitly not so much. Flag on windows and a lot of other way to be that does not exist in France. So from a foreigner POV , i think these sort of French stories about anthem must appear fully strange.



But anyway we are not here to discuss politics


Nice article from stuart barnes, very true i think. I do not think that this mental weakness from France will appear on saturday, we are already talking too much about it. If we loose, it means that England has done a good match.

 

[gingergenius]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bernard @ Mar 18 2010, 07:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Just to explain this Bullshit stuff about Bastaraud : he is not singing the Marseillaise ..it is why there are assholes that are sending some bullshit emails...Like because you are not singing the national anthem, you would be less french ! that is a big bullshit ! i feel so french and even if i was not singing the marseillaise , i would feel french too. I do not see the relation. But some dumb people are making this sort of crap relation...

Since the governement has decided to make the national identity a central question in france , a lot of racists or xenophobic guys are mixing everything and they feel like everything is permitted, like they can say everything....Thanks Sarkozy for opening the pandora's box ! Sarkozy has been elected for a part because he did not hesitate "to steal" some ideas to the Front National (Le pen) and all this national identity question is a part of that.

For brit and irish, it is difficult to compare what is happenning here in UK and ireland and what is hapening in France. In France , we are very centralised (Paris) in a administrative and nation POV but as well , there is a lot of differences on a cultural POV between Frenchies. lots of different regions , cultures and languages so you can find in some part of France some guys who won't sing the marseillaise by principle (basque country , corsica or britanny) , just to make the point that they feel french but as well they feel Corse , basque or breton (even some angry guys can think that France is an invader..yeah yeah even today there are some... ) ...you have the same principle in Guadeloupe, martinique or reunion. So it creates something strange ... because of this centralization (and history as well) that makes the fact to be french important but at the same time , you feel different because you come from some specific regionalism (i'm breton for example..and it makes me special in a way..i'm french and breton..Maybe scot or wales could have the same feeling here in UK).

Living in UK, i'm always surprised how you brit are patriotics , we are defnitly not so much. Flag on windows and a lot of other way to be that does not exist in France. So from a foreigner POV , i think these sort of French stories about anthem must appear fully strange.



But anyway we are not here to discuss politics


Nice article from stuart barnes, very true i think. I do not think that this mental weakness from France will appear on saturday, we are already talking too much about it. If we loose, it means that England has done a good match.[/b]

Well, it's interesting to compare the two countries. France and the UK are both democratic countries, and in the eyes of the law every citizen is equal. But in France, the state decides what being French is and the people are all treated as Frenchmen, while in Britain there is a lot more license to do your own thing and celebrate difference. There's pros and cons to both sides.

For example, the French constitution doesn't care if people are black/ white or whatever, and so this is not asked in the census. The French refuse to recognise any language besides French. In Britain your race is asked on almost every form you'll fill in, and several languages alongside English are recognised.. to the point where our passports are in English, Welsh and Scottish Gaelic.

In some cases obviously this is great, because the French state is secular and they have no state-run faith schools - which is 100% a good thing. Religion should never be more than a personal issue. In Britain, there are thousands of faith-based schools, and we are in a constant debate about how much peoples' religious beliefs should be pandered to in public.

There are other areas where I feel our method works - certainly our immigrant populations have assimilated far better than in France, and I think this is a lot to do with the over-representation of ethnic minorities in the media in Britain. Almost all popular culture comes from the media, and seeing an assortment of ethnicities being actively involved in this makes people far more comfortable with a multicultural society. France, on the other hand, has only recently begun to select blacks/ maghrebins for high-profile jobs such as newsreading - we've had Trevor McDonald since the 60s.

Thats my tuppence worth anyway.

 

[bristol-iain]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gingergenius @ Mar 18 2010, 08:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bernard @ Mar 18 2010, 07:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Just to explain this Bullshit stuff about Bastaraud : he is not singing the Marseillaise ..it is why there are assholes that are sending some bullshit emails...Like because you are not singing the national anthem, you would be less french ! that is a big bullshit ! i feel so french and even if i was not singing the marseillaise , i would feel french too. I do not see the relation. But some dumb people are making this sort of crap relation...

Since the governement has decided to make the national identity a central question in france , a lot of racists or xenophobic guys are mixing everything and they feel like everything is permitted, like they can say everything....Thanks Sarkozy for opening the pandora's box ! Sarkozy has been elected for a part because he did not hesitate "to steal" some ideas to the Front National (Le pen) and all this national identity question is a part of that.

For brit and irish, it is difficult to compare what is happenning here in UK and ireland and what is hapening in France. In France , we are very centralised (Paris) in a administrative and nation POV but as well , there is a lot of differences on a cultural POV between Frenchies. lots of different regions , cultures and languages so you can find in some part of France some guys who won't sing the marseillaise by principle (basque country , corsica or britanny) , just to make the point that they feel french but as well they feel Corse , basque or breton (even some angry guys can think that France is an invader..yeah yeah even today there are some... ) ...you have the same principle in Guadeloupe, martinique or reunion. So it creates something strange ... because of this centralization (and history as well) that makes the fact to be french important but at the same time , you feel different because you come from some specific regionalism (i'm breton for example..and it makes me special in a way..i'm french and breton..Maybe scot or wales could have the same feeling here in UK).

Living in UK, i'm always surprised how you brit are patriotics , we are defnitly not so much. Flag on windows and a lot of other way to be that does not exist in France. So from a foreigner POV , i think these sort of French stories about anthem must appear fully strange.



But anyway we are not here to discuss politics


Nice article from stuart barnes, very true i think. I do not think that this mental weakness from France will appear on saturday, we are already talking too much about it. If we loose, it means that England has done a good match.[/b]

Well, it's interesting to compare the two countries. France and the UK are both democratic countries, and in the eyes of the law every citizen is equal. But in France, the state decides what being French is and the people are all treated as Frenchmen, while in Britain there is a lot more license to do your own thing and celebrate difference. There's pros and cons to both sides.

For example, the French constitution doesn't care if people are black/ white or whatever, and so this is not asked in the census. The French refuse to recognise any language besides French. In Britain your race is asked on almost every form you'll fill in, and several languages alongside English are recognised.. to the point where our passports are in English, Welsh and Scottish Gaelic.

In some cases obviously this is great, because the French state is secular and they have no state-run faith schools - which is 100% a good thing. Religion should never be more than a personal issue. In Britain, there are thousands of faith-based schools, and we are in a constant debate about how much peoples' religious beliefs should be pandered to in public.

There are other areas where I feel our method works - certainly our immigrant populations have assimilated far better than in France, and I think this is a lot to do with the over-representation of ethnic minorities in the media in Britain. Almost all popular culture comes from the media, and seeing an assortment of ethnicities being actively involved in this makes people far more comfortable with a multicultural society. France, on the other hand, has only recently begun to select blacks/ maghrebins for high-profile jobs such as newsreading - we've had Trevor McDonald since the 60s.

Thats my tuppence worth anyway.
[/b][/quote]

Reminds me of when I was working for the Passport Advice Line in Bristol, a guy rings up;

HIM: Do I have to have the Welsh language on my passport?

ME: Yes, it is a UK passport and Welsh is an official language so it goes on your passport

HIM: <General tirade about why Wales sucks by bigoted moron>

ME: <After talking/laughing about his "complaint" with my collegue who was from Port Talbot the poor sod> Ok can I take your postcode so I can contact your nearest office

HIM: CF something

Complaining about Welsh on his passport and he lived in Bridgend. Prat

 

[Mr.cyclopede]

We could precise talking about importance of media in assimilation the fact that since the second part of last century the French language has lost miles of distance over the world.
English was already the international language in economy and science, but French has there lost its privilege in the both diplomatic and cultural domains.

 

[Jockstap]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Rocket Singh @ Mar 18 2010, 10:59 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Don't worry Hong Kong eclipses Paris.

One of my mates at Uni was backpacking across the Far East and had stopped at Hong Kong. She went into this clothes shop browsing when this fearsome old lady came out the back and said in the way that only people from China can: "WHATYOUWAAN?!"

My friend said "oh nothing, just browsing thanks!"

The old lady looked her up and down (my mate was quite a looker actually) and said matter-of-factly "NOTHINGFITYOU-YOUTOOFAT!"

Class.[/b]

LOL, I know what you mean, we were in China 2 years ago on the way to Vietnam and we stopped for the night in a little village where nobody spoke a word of English. Starving, we went to a small restaurant( I use the term loosely) where we were dismayed to find no pictures on the menu. We managed to persuade the waiter to pick for us through hand gestures. After a while the food came out and we were pleasantly surprrised that everything looked and tasted recognisable.

My friend after wolfing down his stirfry, found he had a weird aftertaste he couldn't put his finger on, he thought it was delicious but couldn't figure it out. The waiter came back with a big smile, my friend tried asked him what it was but the guy just smiled and nodded "yes, yes, yes", so my friend tried a different tactic by using gestures and noises"was it moo, moo. moo or Baa, baa baa or oink ,oink, oink?"

the guy with instant comprehension "oh no,no it.... woof, woof, woof."

brilliant.

 

[Rocket Singh]

I'd point out that you are not stating your race when you say you are English, Irish, Scottish or Welsh but you are stating your nationality.

Remember, Britain is a Union of three nations and a province formed into one single nation state. "Ethnic" Irish for example can be split multiple ways from Ancient Britons who originally came across all the way through to "Old English" Irish who are descendents of the Normans who settled in the southern coast of the island. Scots can draw from descendents of Saxons, Picts, Celts and Vikings.

Thus there is no one single defined racial characteristic to any of the peoples of the British Isles but they each have a distinct national identity created over time through sustained cultural and ethnic immigration and change.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jockstrap @ Mar 18 2010, 08:25 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

LOL, I know what you mean, we were in China 2 years ago on the way to Vietnam and we stopped for the night in a little village where nobody spoke a word of English. Starving, we went to a small restaurant( I use the term loosely) where we were dismayed to find no pictures on the menu. We managed to persuade the waiter to pick for us through hand gestures. After a while the food came out and we were pleasantly surprrised that everything looked and tasted recognisable.

My friend after wolfing down his stirfry, found he had a weird aftertaste he couldn't put his finger on, he thought it was delicious but couldn't figure it out. The waiter came back with a big smile, my friend tried asked him what it was but the guy just smiled and nodded "yes, yes, yes", so my friend tried a different tactic by using gestures and noises"was it moo, moo. moo or Baa, baa baa or oink ,oink, oink?"

the guy with instant comprehension "oh no,no it.... woof, woof, woof."

brilliant.[/b]

Oh god I had a similar episode when I was in Japan last. I went to an Okonomiyaki resturant in the night time hell hole that is Roppongi and it was very nice. Okonomiyaki is a kind of savoury pancake and you can have it with a variety of toppings such as meat, vegetable and even curry. That night though I decided to have seafood.

In this resturant you sat at a table with a griddle in the middle and you could cook it yourself. A few eyebrows raised at the health and safety of it all but it was a good laugh. I cooked mine and tucked in and immediately started chewing on these big, greyish blocks of flesh which I couldn't put my finger on what they were. I thought they were Tuna at first but they were way too chewy and greasy for me liking.

In the end, I was so curious, I called over the waitress and a friend politely asked what was in the mixture. She listed through various fish before I shook my head and pointed at one of the greyish blocks in my pancake and said, still chewing this crap, "sorry I just wanted to know what this was?"

"OH that? Whale! ^_^" she beamed as if with national pride.

My reaction was "BLEARRRGH!!"

P.s. I'm going to Japan again in May. You hear that, Charles?! I'm comin' for ya so yer better start running like hell like your ancestors did at the Battle of Vitoria!

 

[Olyy]

Borthwick still a maybe, he's getting checked over again before the team leaves for Paris, but he hasn't trained this week/has had his leg in a brace for two days.
According to planetrugby Palmer was brought in because of his "superior lineout knowledge" *cough*heplayedonthesameteamasmartinjohnson*cough* and has been training with the squad all week to take his place.

Who will captain? Moody is the most likely, being the captain for Leicester and all

 

[munstermuffin]

Just looking over England over years and realise that winning the World Cuo has had it's downside too.

Like it was great achievement but if you look at other World Cup teams, they gradually introduce new players in and rebuild for a new era.
But England are constantly (Even 7years on) turning to the old vetrans and is has stopped some development of others.
Like I know some experience is needed but England have just got balance and approach wrong. I think they have talented players just mishandled them.

 

[Bullitt]

 

[Bernard]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gingergenius @ Mar 18 2010, 09:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bernard @ Mar 18 2010, 07:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Just to explain this Bullshit stuff about Bastaraud : he is not singing the Marseillaise ..it is why there are assholes that are sending some bullshit emails...Like because you are not singing the national anthem, you would be less french ! that is a big bullshit ! i feel so french and even if i was not singing the marseillaise , i would feel french too. I do not see the relation. But some dumb people are making this sort of crap relation...

Since the governement has decided to make the national identity a central question in france , a lot of racists or xenophobic guys are mixing everything and they feel like everything is permitted, like they can say everything....Thanks Sarkozy for opening the pandora's box ! Sarkozy has been elected for a part because he did not hesitate "to steal" some ideas to the Front National (Le pen) and all this national identity question is a part of that.

For brit and irish, it is difficult to compare what is happenning here in UK and ireland and what is hapening in France. In France , we are very centralised (Paris) in a administrative and nation POV but as well , there is a lot of differences on a cultural POV between Frenchies. lots of different regions , cultures and languages so you can find in some part of France some guys who won't sing the marseillaise by principle (basque country , corsica or britanny) , just to make the point that they feel french but as well they feel Corse , basque or breton (even some angry guys can think that France is an invader..yeah yeah even today there are some... ) ...you have the same principle in Guadeloupe, martinique or reunion. So it creates something strange ... because of this centralization (and history as well) that makes the fact to be french important but at the same time , you feel different because you come from some specific regionalism (i'm breton for example..and it makes me special in a way..i'm french and breton..Maybe scot or wales could have the same feeling here in UK).

Living in UK, i'm always surprised how you brit are patriotics , we are defnitly not so much. Flag on windows and a lot of other way to be that does not exist in France. So from a foreigner POV , i think these sort of French stories about anthem must appear fully strange.



But anyway we are not here to discuss politics


Nice article from stuart barnes, very true i think. I do not think that this mental weakness from France will appear on saturday, we are already talking too much about it. If we loose, it means that England has done a good match.[/b]

Well, it's interesting to compare the two countries. France and the UK are both democratic countries, and in the eyes of the law every citizen is equal. But in France, the state decides what being French is and the people are all treated as Frenchmen, while in Britain there is a lot more license to do your own thing and celebrate difference. There's pros and cons to both sides.

For example, the French constitution doesn't care if people are black/ white or whatever, and so this is not asked in the census. The French refuse to recognise any language besides French. In Britain your race is asked on almost every form you'll fill in, and several languages alongside English are recognised.. to the point where our passports are in English, Welsh and Scottish Gaelic.

In some cases obviously this is great, because the French state is secular and they have no state-run faith schools - which is 100% a good thing. Religion should never be more than a personal issue. In Britain, there are thousands of faith-based schools, and we are in a constant debate about how much peoples' religious beliefs should be pandered to in public.

There are other areas where I feel our method works - certainly our immigrant populations have assimilated far better than in France, and I think this is a lot to do with the over-representation of ethnic minorities in the media in Britain. Almost all popular culture comes from the media, and seeing an assortment of ethnicities being actively involved in this makes people far more comfortable with a multicultural society. France, on the other hand, has only recently begun to select blacks/ maghrebins for high-profile jobs such as newsreading - we've had Trevor McDonald since the 60s.

Thats my tuppence worth anyway.
[/b][/quote]


Very interesting points


And i agree 1000 times with that :


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>

There are other areas where I feel our method works - certainly our immigrant populations have assimilated far better than in France, and I think this is a lot to do with the over-representation of ethnic minorities in the media in Britain. Almost all popular culture comes from the media, and seeing an assortment of ethnicities being actively involved in this makes people far more comfortable with a multicultural society. France, on the other hand, has only recently begun to select blacks/ maghrebins for high-profile jobs such as newsreading - we've had Trevor McDonald since the 60s.[/b]

In fact, the assimilation in France is a disaster. i did believe in our model ...before i came to the UK. I understood that i was wrong. The main point is the economic integration of minorities. and then the social integration. Britain have given access to high jobs (and so.. social) positions to its minorities, have let a lot of freedom to open businesses to them and so minorities are represented in every economico-social levels. It is very personal thought but even a population like african immigrants (for example) are much more "PROUD" (and i weight my word) here than in France. Dentists, GP are from minorities...even bussinesses like estate agencies are owned by minorities..i lived in Paris and i do not remember seeing the same sort of situations. As they are represented, they can "dream" , identify themselves to these social "heroes".


I'm comparing Paris and London (i guess it represents a bit each of our countries, it can be reliable example) so i can't talk too much about other cities and countryside in the UK.

There is a lot of other explanations...for example , Urbanisation and transports are a very good perpspective to compare the economic and social mix and assimilation between these 2 big towns. And i should go back to the sixties where it all begins with the decision to build these awfull neighboors all around Paris...

In the meantime i noticed some funny things. I heard things much more rude and racist in England than i heard in France. i was with an English girl (origin jamaica) smoking outside a pub..we began to discuss with 2 English guys about england and bullshit and at one point one of the guy said to my friend very directly " yeah but you do not know , you are not fully english.." something like that...the guy did not mean so bad finally but for me it was really shocking. and it is not the only example i have about basic racism i could have heard in London mainly. It is certainly explainable by a better freedom of speech you have here, and somehow , each part accepts it (my friend did not react so much about it...)...But as well i do believe that it comes from the french way of assimilation "we are one , we are french , there is no differences and xenophobia, racism are very bad"...So we are very carefull with words about that.


I do not believe that it is so bad in France, i believe that all these bad years, all these burned cars and fight and many other things will have some positive effects later...i do hope...but it is f***in long and it is hard to see where it goes sometimes

Just about Sarkozy : i'm not at all on his political side but i think he is from a generation who is determined to act about all these problems and he has understood that the representation of minorities even on high social position is a key thing to assimiliation. i think about his different choices for some ministers etc etc ...but again the assimilation has to be as well economic and choose people from minorities for ministers is a good thing but if there is no economic integration behind, it is useless. But he has given a good start and more and more we can see people from minorities in elective position ..some guys like Azouz Begag are becoming some quite "important" person in the mediatic and politic "landscape"...Politics are important in france and so if minorities begin to win that race, it can change a lot of things.


OOOPs !!!! lets come back to the rugby !!!!

 

[Mr.cyclopede]

Having an Extra ticket for France vs England tomorrow night.

It's a CAT 4 ticket (block Y2), to be sold official price (36â'¬). Will also be on the match, so to be given in person should be the best.

Please PM for contacts

 

[elgringoborracho]

I just read a very worrying article (from a french point of view) about Chris Ashton on a french rugby website (www.rugby365.fr). I don't think I have ever seen him play but it looks like he has scored a shitload of tries this year! How good is he? What's his style of play?

Marc Andreu: 1m70, 75 kg

vs

Chris Ashton: 1m83, 91 kg



Should be interesting! Well that is if both wingers get decent attacking ball. But with Flood in for Wilko this is a bit more likely to happen.

 

[Bullitt]

Ashton is the fastest player in England and often plays support runner ready to pickup offloads... Normally from Ben Foden. He's pretty good at creating his own stuff n'all.

Lots of this season here

That said, there's no linchpin at outside centre with Tindall unlikely to provide many passes.

 

[elgringoborracho]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bullitt @ Mar 19 2010, 11:35 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Ashton is the fastest player in England and often plays support runner ready to pickup offloads... Normally from Ben Foden. He's pretty good at creating his own stuff n'all.

Lots of this season here

That said, there's no linchpin at outside centre with Tindall unlikely to provide many passes.[/b]

Other question after watching this video: why no Geraghty in a white jersey?

EDIT: And yes that Ashton guy seems pretty good. There must be some depth in England backs after all if a guy like that only gets called up thanks to two players getting injured!

 

[Olyy]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elgringoborracho @ Mar 19 2010, 10:44 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Other question after watching this video: why no Geraghty in a white jersey?[/b]

Because Johnson's a fool. He played him out of position in the AIs, which he didn't do too well at, so he dropped him from the squad. But then when he played at 10 for the Saxons at the start of the 6N he did very well, showing that it was just the fact he wasn't in the right position, rather than unable to perform

 

[Bullitt]

That is the enigma of RFU selection policy; In the autumn they picked him as a 12 (although he's a specialist 10) and completely ruined his game - He's still nowhere near his form from pre-November even now.

Now he's off the radar and likely to never get back in.

 

[munstermuffin]

In fairness though Geraghty hasn't been as consistent as Foden and Ashton of late.

Although in AI's especially after his performance against Munster in H'Cup he should've been allowed a game at 10 to prove his case.

 

[Olyy]

Borthwick out, Palmer onto the bench, Deacon starting, Moody captain

 

[Bullitt]

I don't know whether to laugh, cry, cheer or rage at that announcement...

 

[Olyy]

Replacing a poor player with a poor player...at least Johnsons got consistency

Is Tom Palmer any good? I can't ever remember seeing him play