Get your bets in for the All Black Squad for the june tests

[Larksea]

good write Darwin

I think every year there are a lot of unlucky names when an All Black squad is announced and you would think that after a world cup it would get easier as a group of players rule themselves out of selection for various reasons. But this year there are genuine options in every position I think other than hooker which now it seems is the problem position.

I think the AD selectors almost need to go back to the ITM cup and look at hookers to plan for the future.

In super rugby you have Hore, Mealamu, Flynn and Rutledge who are all kinda starting or well into their twilight years and most likely don't have another world cup in them and Mo Schwalgar who is a Samoan International.

outside that group rather than having a genuine selection battle its really just a head to head coin tosser Between Elliot and Coles, so we got two guys to work with looking towards 2015??? With Hore obviously not that interested in an overseas stint and Mealamu I think obviously keen on reaching 100 test caps neither look like moving on to make room where in the past after a world cup players like this have left.

Gutted for Messam, yes there is a chance he will still make the 30man squad but I rate that chance under 25% I personally think he should be there and be given a genuine shot because of the changes he has made to his game over the last two years - I see him now as the most suitable replacement to Kaino and he's still young enough to work towards 2015. And I think it would be a mistake to hand that Job to Thomson for reasons I have covered in this thread - and with Thomson being a couple of years older it kinda makes him touch and go for 2015 in my view Messam, Vito and either Cane or Matt Todd is the way of the future. And Darwin is right about Luke Braid - I think if he was playing for one of the other super teams this year he would be right in contention. Though all teams have 7's performing at a high level and there seems to be a logjam of #7 talent right now. Cane, Latimer, Todd, Braid, Lowe, Lam and even Hardie was really impressive before he was injured.

With the disappointment there are also some really exciting aspects to this squad. Aaron Smith, Sam Cane and most of all Brodie Retalick. I think Brodie is going to be huge, his arrival on the scene so far has been even more impressive than Sam Whitelock and the prospect of those two pairing together at test level? only like 21? over 2m tall and ~120kg and he has beaten Brad Thorns record for the shuttle test...

Now I look back I think our halfbacks have been a pretty big disappointment over the last 5-6 years maybe more. Weepu never realized his potential and obviously never will, a lot of faith was put in Cowan for a long time only for him to basically drop off the radar and look disinterested in a world cup year. Elis I think has genuine flaws to his game that inhibit the back line at test level. Leonard has been all about injuries and bad luck, though he is still fairly young. But this year we got some serious new talent led by Aaron Smith who I really hope turn this area around, then there is barlow who doesn't quite look ready but has great potential, and Perenara who to me does look ready but at only 19 is seen as still too young.

 

[nickdnz]

In my mid TJ Peranara has been the form halfback in the competition now, even more so than Aaron Smith. He's got a very nice pass, but it's his other stuff that impress me. He seems top be able to slip under tackles amazingly, his handling skills are superb, he spots gaps, finishes off tries (7 so far this season), and he tackles very well. In my mind he looks more promising and polished than Kerr-Barlow, even at a younger age.

 

[Larksea]

Squad named.


Hookers
Andrew Hore Taranaki (62)
Keven Mealamu Auckland (92)

Props
Wyatt Crockett Canterbury (6)
Ben Franks Tasman (15)
Owen Franks Canterbury (31)
Ben Tameifuna Hawke's Bay *
Tony Woodcock North Harbour (83)

Locks
Brodie Retallick Bay of Plenty *
Luke Romano Canterbury *
Samuel Whitelock Canterbury (25)
Ali Williams Auckland (73)

Loose forwards
Sam Cane Bay of Plenty *
Richie McCaw (C) Canterbury (103)
Kieran Read Canterbury (36)
Adam Thomson Otago (24)
Victor Vito Wellington (13)

Halfbacks
Aaron Smith Manawatu *
Piri Weepu Auckland (56)

First five-eighths
Daniel Carter Canterbury (85)
Aaron Cruden Manawatu (9)
Beauden Barrett Taranaki *

Midfielders
Tamati Ellison Otago (1)
Ma'a Nonu Wellington (66)
Conrad Smith Wellington (55)
Sonny Bill Williams Canterbury (14)

Outside backs
Israel Dagg Hawke's Bay (12)
Hosea Gear Wellington (8)
Zac Guildford Hawke's Bay (8)
Ben Smith Otago (2)
Julian Savea Wellington *


dont want to ***** and moan but I at the same time I few things **** be off lol

very interesting how they have dropped the usual third hooker and halfnack to carry an extra Prop and First Five.

I'm not the biggest Andy Elis fan in the world but I simply dont inderstand how Weepu has been selected ahead of him? Even more so when there is no need for his first five skills with 3 10's in the squad.

Sure Weepu was great in the quater final kicking goals but we dont need him to kick goals anymore and I'll never forget how he almost cost us the World cup final with a pretty sorry showing. Currently on form as a halfback what is he? 5th? 6th?? 7th???! best halfback in NZ? Even to say he's 5th would be kind I think, I think even Cowan has been more reliable off the bench for the highlanders - at least he's fit. I'd have Aaron Smith, Elis, TJP, TKB, Leonard then Mathewson clearly ahead of him and then yes even Cowan. Bizare.....

Sam Cane is interesting, he is a great tallent but I struggle to recall a player being picked on so little. 2nd string 7 at the chiefs if anyone deserves to be in there from the chiefs it's Messam who was class again last night in a game Cane was actually pretty quiet.

And if you thought they selected Cane with an Eye for the future what about the hookers? Just the two old war hourses, both unliekly to make the 2015 world cup.

on a posative note

Really looking forward to seeing Aaron Smith, Brodie Retalick and Julean Savea make their debuts Smith and Retalick both uncapped and both sure selections goes to show just how well they have been playing. And months ago I said Savea should be picked looking towards 2015 but I did not think it would happen. But as it turned out he performed on the field and really it's not much of a suprise to see him there now.

Also great to see Ben smith back, he prob should have been a more regular visitor in the All Blacks squad over the last 2-3 years.

 

[Darwin]

A completely predictable squad, with one major exception - the exclusion of Andy Ellis. It is quite a phenomenal decision by the AB's selectors to (a) only pick two halfbacks, and (b) pick Piri Weepu as one of these halfbacks over Andy Ellis. While I've criticized Ellis in the past at All Black level, he actually played very well for the AB's last season - indeed much better than Piri Weepu (who was poor in the semi-final, and seemed to go out of his way to try and make us lose the final...). Based on this seasons form there should be no competition: Ellis has been in superb form, while Weepu has been overweight, and struggled to get starting time for the Blues (and not been overly effective when he has started). The only reason I can possibly think to include Weepu is that Carters groin is still much worse than in made out, and they are desperate to get Carter starting at 10, so want Weepu alongside him to kick goals.....

 

[Shaggy]

I agree that weepu is more than a little lucky to hold his place given his current form, and I have my doubts about whether he could last anything close to 80 minutes of rugby at the moment. Ali Williams is another who has done nothing to warrent selection,if they wanted a lock with international experience, they could have gone for Jason Eaton ... I'm wondering, given the make up of the squad, whether they might consider a 5-2 split on the bench, to allow some of the less experienced forwards to get game time ... I'm thinking they might even start Vito at 6, and bring Thomson and perhaps Cane of the bench

 

[austingtir]

Yeah deff the weakest halfback pairing we have had in a SUPER long time. Aaron smith is good but could be questionable on box kicking and defence for me. And Piri well its all been said about him.

Honestly i agree with the above i would of taken an out of form Cowan over both of them actually with Ellis. I think at international level a defensive halfback is worth more than an attacking one in a tight game. We might get away with this against Ireland though.

And the locks not our worst but not standouts either just journeymen players i think not one of them has anything to write home about.

 

[Darwin]

Yeah deff the weakest halfback pairing we have had in a SUPER long time. Aaron smith is good but could be questionable on box kicking and defence for me. And Piri well its all been said about him.

Honestly i agree with the above i would of taken an out of form Cowan over both of them actually with Ellis. I think at international level a defensive halfback is worth more than an attacking one in a tight game. We might get away with this against Ireland though.

And the locks not our worst but not standouts either just journeymen players i think not one of them has anything to write home about.

I don't agree that Smith is a weakness on defense. People assume he would be weak on defense due to his small stature, but he is actually a pretty good defensive halfback - he is not going to knock people over, but is going to make most of his tackles. I'm far more worried about Weepu's defense than Smiths. Tackling stats from this season (from the foxsports fantasy super rugby game - http://superrugbyfantasy.foxsports.com.au/) suggest Smiths defense is pretty good too. Here are the tackling percentages of the top NZ halfbacks:

Ellis 62 tackles / 87 tackles attempted (71%)
Weepu 23/37 (62%)
Aaron Smith 55/69 (80%)
Perenara 66/90 (73%)
Cowan 17/21 (81%)
Kerr-Barlow 93/114 (82%)
Leonard 33/37 (89%)
Mathewson 25/35 (71%)

Cowan would have been about the last halfback I would have picked -he was quite frankly shocking for the AB's at the RWC last season, and has continued this form on for the Highlanders this season. The difference between in the passing ability of Aaron Smith and Cowan this season is incredible. I agree about Aaron Smiths limited box-kicking game, and I do wonder whether this will be exposed at test level, however his passing game is so good it will bring a new dimension to the All Blacks backline. Personally I would have taken 3 halfbacks in the squad, with Smith, Ellis, and Perenara.

I don't particularly rate Ali Williams or Luke Romano, but Sam Whitelock and Brodie Retallick both have the potential to be world class locks (and you could argue Whitelock is a world class lock already). We will certainly miss Brad Thorn, but Brodie Retallick has the ability to make a huge impact in test rugby despite his young age.

 

[nickdnz]

I don't agree that Smith is a weakness on defense. People assume he would be weak on defense due to his small stature, but he is actually a pretty good defensive halfback - he is not going to knock people over, but is going to make most of his tackles. I'm far more worried about Weepu's defense than Smiths. Tackling stats from this season (from the foxsports fantasy super rugby game - http://superrugbyfantasy.foxsports.com.au/) suggest Smiths defense is pretty good too. Here are the tackling percentages of the top NZ halfbacks:

Ellis 62 tackles / 87 tackles attempted (71%)
Weepu 23/37 (62%)
Aaron Smith 55/69 (80%)
Perenara 66/90 (73%)
Cowan 17/21 (81%)
Kerr-Barlow 93/114 (82%)
Leonard 33/37 (89%)
Mathewson 25/35 (71%)

Cowan would have been about the last halfback I would have picked -he was quite frankly shocking for the AB's at the RWC last season, and has continued this form on for the Highlanders this season. The difference between in the passing ability of Aaron Smith and Cowan this season is incredible. I agree about Aaron Smiths limited box-kicking game, and I do wonder whether this will be exposed at test level, however his passing game is so good it will bring a new dimension to the All Blacks backline. Personally I would have taken 3 halfbacks in the squad, with Smith, Ellis, and Perenara.

I don't particularly rate Ali Williams or Luke Romano, but Sam Whitelock and Brodie Retallick both have the potential to be world class locks (and you could argue Whitelock is a world class lock already). We will certainly miss Brad Thorn, but Brodie Retallick has the ability to make a huge impact in test rugby despite his young age.

Agree with all of this.

The squad is very good in my opinion minus Piri Weepu's inclusion. Clearly Alby Mathewson is playing better than him in the Blues (had a great last game), while Andy Ellis has had a very good season for the Crusaders (and I usually don't rate him). Aaron Smith and TJ Peranara are the two inform halfbacks in the competition and only one made the cut.

As I've mentioned, Ali Williams would be no where near my quad. He's been very poor since returning but people seem to gloss over his mistakes, poor work rate etc, because he's been alright in the lineouts and he has a crap load of caps (despite not really earning any of them since 2008). It's frustrating, however with Retallick and Whitelock we have possibly a very long lasting future combo, so hopefully he won't get much game time.

 

[austingtir]

Nah still not convinced guys heres a scenario. Carter go's down with more injuries. Now we have cruden starting at 10 and piri's form doesnt improve.... now we have another smallish guy in smith inside him (good defence or not).... then at 6 we have thompson or vito.

That does not inspire me if we were playing the boks in a three test series. They would just smash the crap out of those two imo. As everywhere else from 8 to 15 is pretty sound so anybody would be crazy not to attack that channel.

Good thing were playing ireland and not SA or FRANCE is all I can say.
Imagine that if we were playing France in a three test series.... I would be pretty concerned....

Is France coming next year correct? Hopefully we have our **** together by then.

 

[Darwin]

Nah still not convinced guys heres a scenario. Carter go's down with more injuries. Now we have cruden starting at 10 and piri's form doesnt improve.... now we have another smallish guy in smith inside him (good defence or not).... then at 6 we have thompson or vito.

That does not inspire me if we were playing the boks in a three test series. They would just smash the crap out of those two imo. As everywhere else from 8 to 15 is pretty sound so anybody would be crazy not to attack that channel.

Good thing were playing ireland and not SA or FRANCE is all I can say.
Imagine that if we were playing France in a three test series.... I would be pretty concerned....

Is France coming next year correct? Hopefully we have our **** together by then.

That is certainly something that needs to be considered - Thomson at 6, with 9. Smith and 10. Cruden would certainly lack a bit of physicality in defense (Vito has however evolved into a pretty physical defender in recent years in my opinion).

My question is: who would your 2 (or 3) halfbacks be if you were picking a 30-man squad? Would you seriously consider Cowan? He may add a bit in defense, but he is at the moment more of a liability on attack, and will be gone at the end of the year. Ellis, for all his good points, is a poor defensive player - not only does he lack physicality in defense, but he also misses quite a few tackles. Leonard and Kerr-Barlow are (along with Cowan) probably the best defensive 9's in the country, but Leonard is too messy at the base of the breakdown for me (and his passing can be erratic), and for all Kerr-Barlows' incredible skills, he still tries to do too much at times. I actually think the most complete halfback in the country right now is Perenara - he has a great kicking game, is superb with ball in hand, and is very physical in defense - the reason his tackling percentage is a bit lower than others is that he puts himself in position to make a lot of tackles on cover defense, which can be very difficult to make.

I think New Zealander's are so used to having a '4th loose-forward' at halfback, that they will have trouble accepting a smaller 'pass first' halfback. I think Carter is going to be shocked at how quickly the ball is going to be coming out to him, and how much extra time he has to do things with Smith at halfback - personally I think that makes up for any physicality Smith may lack in defense.

 

[austingtir]

Thats what im saying we only have ellis to go back to now really. Usually once selectors have made decisions like this thats it for the year. So we better hope smith ends up being the goods.

I think we'll be fine this year... but for the future im pretty concerned with those halfbacks and cruden as back up 10 if we are in a series against a staunch forward pack like ENGLAND SA OR FRANCE. I think hansen and co may have forgotten why we have been running halfbacks like marshall, kelleher, leonard and cowan. If Kaino was still around i would be far less concerned but we have no proven options on defence in that channel. I can see any smart opposition with sizeable forwards just running all day there.

It will be intresting in the long run to see if this sort of problem ever comes up. I guess its good to experiment with this now and not when we are playing against a really big forward oriented team. Although Ireland were pretty spirited from what i remember of the WC.

 

[DariusLovehall]

I must be the only person happy with the Halfback selections.

Piri was great in the WC - He played strongly until the semi and final where he struggled because he was asked to play injured as we needed kicking 5/8 with some experience.

He has been out of sorts this year but he's trained hard and has hit his fitness marks ... I don't believe Hansen & Co would have selected him if he hadn't attained goals set by the selection panel earlier in the year. We all know that on his day Piri has a skill set no-one else has ... but aside from that he is an experienced goal kicking half who can play first 5/8...
on that alone they had to pick him -- i think Piri and young Arron cover all bases and leave plenty of options for Shag to base gamplans around.

Looks like a good side to me ... Bring on the Irish!

 

[Gavin]

People's starting 22 for the first test then?

 

[SpanishBob]

The haka without Weepu woldn't be the same. That's the reason why he is in.

 

[Aedaphon]

My question is: who would your 2 (or 3) halfbacks be if you were picking a 30-man squad? Would you seriously consider Cowan? He may add a bit in defense, but he is at the moment more of a liability on attack, and will be gone at the end of the year. Ellis, for all his good points, is a poor defensive player - not only does he lack physicality in defense, but he also misses quite a few tackles. Leonard and Kerr-Barlow are (along with Cowan) probably the best defensive 9's in the country, but Leonard is too messy at the base of the breakdown for me (and his passing can be erratic), and for all Kerr-Barlows' incredible skills, he still tries to do too much at times. I actually think the most complete halfback in the country right now is Perenara - he has a great kicking game, is superb with ball in hand, and is very physical in defense - the reason his tackling percentage is a bit lower than others is that he puts himself in position to make a lot of tackles on cover defense, which can be very difficult to make.

Very happy someone else has picked this up: Kerr-Barlow and Perenara have been the form 9s all season and, although we all knew they'd never take two uncapped halfbacks in the squad, these two are the ones who are going to be competing for the shirt over the next couple of years (along with Smith... I'm just not a Highlanders fan).

Especially as Cruden (and potentially Barrett) are shaping up to be potential successors to Carter, the ABs should be doing all they can to develop these club halfback partnerships into international ones. Hopefully both will be capped by the end of the year- just my two cents.

 

[admartian]

People's starting 22 for the first test then?

1. Woodcock
2. Hore
3. O. Franks
4. Whitelock
5. Williams
6. Vito
7. McCaw
8. Read

9. Weepu
10. Carter
11. Savea
12. Nonu
13. Smith
14. Gear
15. Dagg

16. Mealamu
17. B. Franks
18. Romano
19. Thomson
20. A. Smith
21. Cruden
22. SBW

That's what I think who'll make it anyway.

I really wish they start Ellison or have him in there over SBW. Really strong runner and a more complete player as well. Would also love Crockett over Ben Franks and Cane over Thomson too.

 

[big ginger 8]

Thats what im saying we only have ellis to go back to now really. Usually once selectors have made decisions like this thats it for the year. So we better hope smith ends up being the goods.

I think we'll be fine this year... but for the future im pretty concerned with those halfbacks and cruden as back up 10 if we are in a series against a staunch forward pack like ENGLAND SA OR FRANCE. I think hansen and co may have forgotten why we have been running halfbacks like marshall, kelleher, leonard and cowan. If Kaino was still around i would be far less concerned but we have no proven options on defence in that channel. I can see any smart opposition with sizeable forwards just running all day there.

It will be intresting in the long run to see if this sort of problem ever comes up. I guess its good to experiment with this now and not when we are playing against a really big forward oriented team. Although Ireland were pretty spirited from what i remember of the WC.

Yeah that's us the plucky Irish no skill or anything just really comitted. It's a pity you won't see a proper Ireland team what with half our pack and our main source of tries being injured.

 

[Aedaphon]

1. Woodcock
2. Hore
3. O. Franks
4. Whitelock
5. Williams
6. Vito
7. McCaw
8. Read

9. Weepu
10. Carter
11. Savea
12. Nonu
13. Smith
14. Gear
15. Dagg

16. Mealamu
17. B. Franks
18. Romano
19. Thomson
20. A. Smith
21. Cruden
22. SBW

That's what I think who'll make it anyway.

I really wish they start Ellison or have him in there over SBW. Really strong runner and a more complete player as well. Would also love Crockett over Ben Franks and Cane over Thomson too.

Starting Nonu over SBW? I know a lot of people dislike SBW just on principle but he dominated Nonu over the course of the Chiefs/Blues game yesterday. SBW closed him down consistently and even ripped the ball off him in the tackle in the last 10 minutes. SBW is my bet for starting 12.

Weepu didn't even get any gametime for the Blues yesterday and he's had a pretty horrific season thus far. I pray that Smith starts with Weepu given a chance to prove himself of the bench, but I guess we'll see. Kerr-Barlow has actually had a far better than Weepu, hopefully he'll get some game time in too. Retalick to start over Williams- I seem to be picking on Blues' players here, but apart from a couple of bright sparks (Ranger, Mathewson, Saili et al.) they've looked like a shoddy outfit so far.

Apart from those gripes I think that's a pretty accurate starting lineup. Savea and Gear both starting would make a very one-dimensional back three- I'd expect Zac Guildford and one of Gear or Savea to start, possibly switching for the 2nd test. This is where I moan that Andre Taylor has been robbed of a place in the squad.

Can anyone tell me how long Kahui and Toeava are out for?

 

[Darwin]

Very happy someone else has picked this up: Kerr-Barlow and Perenara have been the form 9s all season and, although we all knew they'd never take two uncapped halfbacks in the squad, these two are the ones who are going to be competing for the shirt over the next couple of years (along with Smith... I'm just not a Highlanders fan).

Especially as Cruden (and potentially Barrett) are shaping up to be potential successors to Carter, the ABs should be doing all they can to develop these club halfback partnerships into international ones. Hopefully both will be capped by the end of the year- just my two cents.

Kerr-Barlow has had a good season, but he is still very inconsistent - he has mixed outstanding games with very poor games too. He still tries to do far too much himself at times, but he certainly has the potential to be a world class halfback. I would only rate him as the forth best halfback in the country this season - Perenara, Ellis, and Smith have all been outstanding, and very consistent throughout the entire season. As you say they were never going to take two uncapped halfbacks, so it was going to be Ellis/Weepu and one of Perenara/Kerr-Barlow/Smith.

Club partnerships can be very important at international level as you suggest. The is one reason that having Smith and Cruden together makes so much sense, as they have played a huge amount of rugby together at Manawatu - it will be good to see that partnership on the international stage.

Starting Nonu over SBW? I know a lot of people dislike SBW just on principle but he dominated Nonu over the course of the Chiefs/Blues game yesterday. SBW closed him down consistently and even ripped the ball off him in the tackle in the last 10 minutes. SBW is my bet for starting 12.

Agree entirely - I can't understand anyone wanting to start Nonu at 12. He looks rather fatigued, having not really had a break from rugby as he went almost staraight to Japan after the RWC. There is the possibility they could start Nonu at 12 and SBW on the wing (but I really hope not) - I'd prefer if they just gave Nonu a three weeks rest to get his body right for later in the season.

Weepu didn't even get any gametime for the Blues yesterday and he's had a pretty horrific season thus far. I pray that Smith starts with Weepu given a chance to prove himself of the bench, but I guess we'll see. Kerr-Barlow has actually had a far better than Weepu, hopefully he'll get some game time in too. Retalick to start over Williams- I seem to be picking on Blues' players here, but apart from a couple of bright sparks (Ranger, Mathewson, Saili et al.) they've looked like a shoddy outfit so far.

I'd imagine Smith will start with Weepu coming off the bench as you suggest (at least I hope so!). I'd like to see Retallick start, but I'd be surprised if the the didn't start Williams.

Apart from those gripes I think that's a pretty accurate starting lineup. Savea and Gear both starting would make a very one-dimensional back three- I'd expect Zac Guildford and one of Gear or Savea to start, possibly switching for the 2nd test. This is where I moan that Andre Taylor has been robbed of a place in the squad.

Can anyone tell me how long Kahui and Toeava are out for?

I too would be surprised if Gear and Savea start on the wings - for the first test I'm expecting Savea and Ben Smith/Guildford to be the wings.

How long Kahui and Toeava are out for depends on how their injuries go. Kahui has opted against surgery to see whether it heals on its own - if this works he will be back later in the season (before the end of the Super Rugby season), but if he is forced to get surgery he will be out for the year. Toeava is an interesting one - he has had this hip problem for a few years and it seems to be getting worse. By the sounds of it he may be signing overseas, so we may never see him in a black jersey again, which is a shame as he has never really lived up to his phenomenal potential.

 

[DariusLovehall]

Starting Nonu over SBW? I know a lot of people dislike SBW just on principle but he dominated Nonu over the course of the Chiefs/Blues game yesterday. SBW closed him down consistently and even ripped the ball off him in the tackle in the last 10 minutes. SBW is my bet for starting 12.

Weepu didn't even get any gametime for the Blues yesterday and he's had a pretty horrific season thus far. I pray that Smith starts with Weepu given a chance to prove himself of the bench, but I guess we'll see. Kerr-Barlow has actually had a far better than Weepu, hopefully he'll get some game time in too. Retalick to start over Williams- I seem to be picking on Blues' players here, but apart from a couple of bright sparks (Ranger, Mathewson, Saili et al.) they've looked like a shoddy outfit so far.

Just so yah know Piri didn't get game time because Steve Hanson asked Pat Lam not to play him because he had a hamstring twinge and they didn't want him to aggravate it.