Heinekec Cup 2013/14 Pool 3, Round 5 (Toulouse v Saracens, Connacht v Zebre)

[Tony Manx]

munstermuffin you exaggerate quite a bit, but about the point that the Top 14 is killing the French national team I'm not sure. Like I said, the talent is there and well. And France as of late (post 2011 RWC) has only been mediocre/bad because of the following, and nothing else literally:
- calendar too packed: too many matches, and these aren't games of Golf this is Rugby, an extra 7 to 15 more games played than other nations. Humongous difference on our guys' freshness.
- calendar and time together: we've had the least chemistry out of any team you want to pick, Tier 1 or 2, because we just had so little time together.
- coaching: definitely we can do better than Saint-André and though he isn't awful I'm pretty sure it was more the game plan than the players who were at fault. Not too sure about Lagisquet either (our backs' coach).

Voilà.

Highest quality postings for sometime.......as for Lagisquet, he was the manager at Biarritz in their glory days where the backs were appendages to the scrum and Yach was in charge of kicking the ball for territory for the massive packs to win again for him to kick again or the penalties that were forthcoming......Lagisquet, who was a fantastic winger himself, is almost, but not quite, entirely respoinsible for the present problems at Biarritz on the field as they did not change their style until too late and their backs had forgotten what to do with the ball (there are exceptions like Zee!!).

................making the flair of a nation that was set by legends like Blanco die

It is true that Serge was a wonderful proponent of attacking rugby, and one that Brown of Quiins is pretty adept at too, but the days of individual flair in this era must be backed up by the dour side of professional rugby such as big defense and scrummage and territorial kicking.

If the French tried to play a la 1987/91 like Blanco, Lagisquet et al, they would be truly murdered in the current era.

I am not saying there is no room for the flair players but they, inevitably, must be in the minority. To emphasise this, take Michalak who would have walked into the 1987/91 teams but should not be in France's team now as he is too mercurial and will lose as many games as he wins because he loves to play with "flair"..............!

As for buying success......yes sometimes it works, eventually, as with Toulon but there are many, many clubs who have failed to achieve that despite huge investment from a sugar Daddy such as Saracens (with Wray before the Saffers took over), Racing, Stade, Bayonne and, to an extent, Clermont! There is little difference between these clubs and many others (Saints, Glaws, Worcester) who have all had private backers at one time or another but, no one will keep putting money into a club losing money for ever unless he is as rich as Croesus or an idiot.....eventually the club has to stand on its own feet financially and become profitable. This is happening in Football where they have brought in regulations on financial stability, and in France where rugby clubs are not allowed to makes losses!

Not sure why everyone, including the French, are so down on Toulon........OK money was put in to finance the early days, but as pointed out above this was no guarantee of success. Yet they are self financing and had more French qualified players in their squads in their match day squads than any other team over the whole of last season....12.3.....! Sorry, I believe it is all down to jealousy and socialism myself!!

 

[ratsapprentice]

I don't buy the "sport is a business" argument at all... the business is incidental - the same as in the music, film and game industries.
Except for private investors like Boudjellal/Wray Rugby is a means to an end, not an end in and of itself.
That's the difference between Union's and private ownership - and it's a very important difference in my opinion.
They want success or they want money (or both).

If they purely had the interests of the sport at heart then they would invest in the governing bodies of the sport.
I say this as a fan of a club with a wealthy owner who has greatly improved our fortunes by pumping a **** load of cash into the club.
Selfishly it has been fantastic for us, but I don't think it has benefited the game as much as getting the premiership shown on the BBC or investing in youth rugby would have.

The TOP14 and Premiership as as they stand would not be where it is without the Unions - they are developing the talent and structures that underpin the global game.
Toulon as it is in particular would simply not exist without the NZRU, ARU, RFU or SARU.

 

[Tony Manx]

I don't buy the "sport is a business" argument at all... the business is incidental - the same as in the music, film and game industries.
Except for private investors like Boudjellal/Wray Rugby is a means to an end, not an end in and of itself.
That's the difference between Union's and private ownership - and it's a very important difference in my opinion.
They want success or they want money (or both).

If they purely had the interests of the sport at heart then they would invest in the governing bodies of the sport.
I say this as a fan of a club with a wealthy owner who has greatly impro and idealims come to mind I am afraid...ved our fortunes by pumping a **** load of cash into the club.
Selfishly it has been fantastic for us, but I don't think it has benefited the game as much as getting the premiership shown on the BBC or investing in youth rugby would have.

The TOP14 and Premiership as as they stand would not be where it is without the Unions - they are developing the talent and structures that underpin the global game.

Idealism (misguided perhaps?) comes to mind here...............!

Do you really believe that top level sport (and the music, film and the game industry) is not a business?

How much money did the 2003 England World Cup winners individually and collectively end up with, what about Jessica Ennis and the other gold medal winners at the Olympics, Simon Cowell and other musical, film entrepreneurs and the inventors, distributors and retailers of games..........need I go on!

The days of Chariots of Fire and the amateur sacrificing his job to go on a Lions Tour are over.........at the top of any sport it is all about business ......money and/or just the techniques honed in the world of business.

The Unions cannot function as charities they have to be run as businesses too and are often failing because they are not.....do you really believe that an individual is likely to entrust his millions to some of the amateurs who are in charge at Unions? Winners (and guys who have the money to invest in rugby are there because most of them have earned it in the first place from business) are hardly likely to give it away for a nebulous idea of supporting grass roots.

It would be lovely if professional rugby were to revert to the ethos and ethics of bygone days or those regularly on display at the local rugby clubs but that is dreamland!

I agree that the Unions have played and are playing a huge part in the growth of rugby in this professional era, in supporting grass roots and in promoting the game of rugby nationally and, through or with the IRB, internationally but the Top 14 and Premiership will survive or die now on the financial muscle of the clubs that, therefore, must be run as businesses. The Rabo will survive on the success or otherwise of the Unions in Ireland and Wales mainly it is true bu they also need the money generated from the European competitions and that is driven by the French and English clubs.....

It is great that the pro clubs do support or work with the unions for international games (for money in exchange for player release or the benefit of central contracts) although this is not yet the situation in France but that is a whole new argument.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Erm... what I am saying is fairly clear, I think.

The business is incidental to the sport.

There, that sentence could not be any more clear.

The Unions are run as businesses (I am not necessarily saying they are universally run well) as they should be.
But the business is a means to support the interests of the sport in whatever constituency the Union represents.

Private owners have private interests - i.e their club being successful.
Because they are solely responsible for the health of their club their actions do not take into account the health of the game as a whole.
This is necessarily harmful the league they compete in and ultimately the health of the sport itself.

It certainly isn't idealism - it's the system that is used in the SH.
A far more efficient system that is consistently more successful at producing elite players and teams.

 

[Tony Manx]

Erm... what I am saying is fairly clear, I think..

It is now............thanks for clarifying the original post but we have differing opnions and that is life and OK too!

 

[Feicarsinn]

He's right, sport isn't a business. Even in football, where there's a lot more money thrown around that's true. Clubs aren't there to make money and success isn't measured in dividends.

 

[munstermuffin]

Ok they got to a World Cup final on lucky side of draw and beat a 14 man Welsh team. Also that was 2011. But now all top teams are just interested in bringing in players that are established internationals like can you honestly say France as a national team are as well respected and regarded as before in terms of style and where they rank.

 

[munstermuffin]

Highest quality postings for sometime.......as for Lagisquet, he was the manager at Biarritz in their glory days where the backs were appendages to the scrum and Yach was in charge of kicking the ball for territory for the massive packs to win again for him to kick again or the penalties that were forthcoming......Lagisquet, who was a fantastic winger himself, is almost, but not quite, entirely respoinsible for the present problems at Biarritz on the field as they did not change their style until too late and their backs had forgotten what to do with the ball (there are exceptions like Zee!!).



It is true that Serge was a wonderful proponent of attacking rugby, and one that Brown of Quiins is pretty adept at too, but the days of individual flair in this era must be backed up by the dour side of professional rugby such as big defense and scrummage and territorial kicking.

If the French tried to play a la 1987/91 like Blanco, Lagisquet et al, they would be truly murdered in the current era.

I am not saying there is no room for the flair players but they, inevitably, must be in the minority. To emphasise this, take Michalak who would have walked into the 1987/91 teams but should not be in France's team now as he is too mercurial and will lose as many games as he wins because he loves to play with "flair"..............!

As for buying success......yes sometimes it works, eventually, as with Toulon but there are many, many clubs who have failed to achieve that despite huge investment from a sugar Daddy such as Saracens (with Wray before the Saffers took over), Racing, Stade, Bayonne and, to an extent, Clermont! There is little difference between these clubs and many others (Saints, Glaws, Worcester) who have all had private backers at one time or another but, no one will keep putting money into a club losing money for ever unless he is as rich as Croesus or an idiot.....eventually the club has to stand on its own feet financially and become profitable. This is happening in Football where they have brought in regulations on financial stability, and in France where rugby clubs are not allowed to makes losses!

Not sure why everyone, including the French, are so down on Toulon........OK money was put in to finance the early days, but as pointed out above this was no guarantee of success. Yet they are self financing and had more French qualified players in their squads in their match day squads than any other team over the whole of last season....12.3.....! Sorry, I believe it is all down to jealousy and socialism myself!!

For what they are paying players can you honestly say they are a profiting club

 

[Big Ewis]

I'm going to oversimplify everything and ask (and hope the answer is as brief !): how the hell is there discussion about clubs and money ? Especially in the classic case of Boudjelal and his invincible armada of huge names. How is there more to say than just money buys success ? I don't see a nuance in there or any good reason to debate this...
Big money= buy the big players and coaching staff= win games= good position in Top 14 or H Cup playoffs= win Cups.
aaaaaaaaaaaand, that's that...

I could even make the equation much shorter. Here: uhhmmm....money.

 

[Big Ewis]

(not a double)
Alright, Zebre Toulouse this weekend. Seeing how they just showed up big time and beat the Saracens for a second straight time, they're going to go into this one thinking it's a piece of cake, show some fine playing but overall look like they're elsewhere and win it by 10-15.

 

[FrenchFan]

Highest quality postings for sometime.......as for Lagisquet, he was the manager at Biarritz in their glory days where the backs were appendages to the scrum and Yach was in charge of kicking the ball for territory for the massive packs to win again for him to kick again or the penalties that were forthcoming......Lagisquet, who was a fantastic winger himself, is almost, but not quite, entirely respoinsible for the present problems at Biarritz on the field as they did not change their style until too late and their backs had forgotten what to do with the ball (there are exceptions like Zee!!).



It is true that Serge was a wonderful proponent of attacking rugby, and one that Brown of Quiins is pretty adept at too, but the days of individual flair in this era must be backed up by the dour side of professional rugby such as big defense and scrummage and territorial kicking.

If the French tried to play a la 1987/91 like Blanco, Lagisquet et al, they would be truly murdered in the current era.

I am not saying there is no room for the flair players but they, inevitably, must be in the minority. To emphasise this, take Michalak who would have walked into the 1987/91 teams but should not be in France's team now as he is too mercurial and will lose as many games as he wins because he loves to play with "flair"..............!

As for buying success......yes sometimes it works, eventually, as with Toulon but there are many, many clubs who have failed to achieve that despite huge investment from a sugar Daddy such as Saracens (with Wray before the Saffers took over), Racing, Stade, Bayonne and, to an extent, Clermont! There is little difference between these clubs and many others (Saints, Glaws, Worcester) who have all had private backers at one time or another but, no one will keep putting money into a club losing money for ever unless he is as rich as Croesus or an idiot.....eventually the club has to stand on its own feet financially and become profitable. This is happening in Football where they have brought in regulations on financial stability, and in France where rugby clubs are not allowed to makes losses!

Not sure why everyone, including the French, are so down on Toulon........OK money was put in to finance the early days, but as pointed out above this was no guarantee of success. Yet they are self financing and had more French qualified players in their squads in their match day squads than any other team over the whole of last season....12.3.....! Sorry, I believe it is all down to jealousy and socialism myself!!

>>absolutely. You are right on the money so to speak. This is down to jealousy and a retarded socialist mindset. Many of the anti Toulon and anti Top14 posts belong to that.

 

[FrenchFan]

Highest quality postings for sometime.......as for Lagisquet, he was the manager at Biarritz in their glory days where the backs were appendages to the scrum and Yach was in charge of kicking the ball for territory for the massive packs to win again for him to kick again or the penalties that were forthcoming......Lagisquet, who was a fantastic winger himself, is almost, but not quite, entirely respoinsible for the present problems at Biarritz on the field as they did not change their style until too late and their backs had forgotten what to do with the ball (there are exceptions like Zee!!).

>>Lagisquet is an AWFUL backs coach. I have heard this many times incl. among Basque fans. And judging by what the french backline play, I have to agree. How this guy was able to land the job as backs coach for Fra is beyond me. But you can get a job with the FFR if you shake the right hands. Thats all it boils down to. At the very least, the wooden spoon should have sparked a mini revolution and heads should have ROLLED. In fact, NOTHING has changed either in PSA staff. Same people. Same mindset. Its the old cronies politics that run the Federation. Nothing else. Both PSA and Lagisquet would have been sacked as Top14 coaches with last year's wooden spoon. But no they didnt. That's how dsyfunctional the Federation is. Look no further for another potentially misfiring french team in the 6N. And you can leave all the foreigners and Toulon's money out of it!

 

[FrenchFan]

You miss my point massively. It's fine for club rugby but it's killing the national team, making the flair of a nation that was set by legends like Blanco die and it's stopping younger French guys be the next generation and when they do get chance the pressure is surreal due to the money at stake and fact owners are trigger happy with cheque books. And there's a difference between being on books and playing. A team with heart but what have they done in Europe? And yes I understand they fielded those players vs Ulster but how many are first teamers. And I not singling out Montpellier but French club rugby as a whole. You say France are bad due to coaches which is partly true but also their handicapped in a way to as there is lesser French guys in pivotal positions

>>oh please not another one about 'flair' again what a load nonsense. Thats the rugby of the 1980s you're describing! Blanco retired in 1991!! Helloo
the game here has evolved considerably and french teams dont go out there to play rugby with 'flair'. What does that mean anyway? i coach youth rugby teams here and next saturday i will walk into the dressing room and shout to my guys: "lads we are going to play with flair today" ?! that doesnt mean ANYTHING
The game has evolved why havent you? the game has changed because the rules have changed, theres more emphasis on kicking skills now than before, many coaches are from SH etc etc. Many sides play territorially and percentage rugby in Top14. Nobody here in youth or senior rugby is talking about playing the rugby of Blanco's era. What nonsense.

 

[munstermuffin]

>>oh please not another one about 'flair' again what a load nonsense. Thats the rugby of the 1980s you're describing! Blanco retired in 1991!! Helloo
the game here has evolved considerably and french teams dont go out there to play rugby with 'flair'. What does that mean anyway? i coach youth rugby teams here and next saturday i will walk into the dressing room and shout to my guys: "lads we are going to play with flair today" ?! that doesnt mean ANYTHING
The game has evolved why havent you? the game has changed because the rules have changed, theres more emphasis on kicking skills now than before, many coaches are from SH etc etc. Many sides play territorially and percentage rugby in Top14. Nobody here in youth or senior rugby is talking about playing the rugby of Blanco's era. What nonsense.

yes but I mean the All Blacks still play with flair. You adapt with rules and try marry what your good at with new rules. Clermont are a prime example of that they have that flair and can play that style but adapt too with rules and condition

 

[FrenchFan]

Ok they got to a World Cup final on lucky side of draw and beat a 14 man Welsh team. Also that was 2011. But now all top teams are just interested in bringing in players that are established internationals like can you honestly say France as a national team are as well respected and regarded as before in terms of style and where they rank.

>>style? ahem.. french flair again? what rugby era are you living in?
ranking? well yes there are currently 5th in the world. They have been in the top 5 for many years. Your team still couldnt get a win in the last 2 years home or away.

 

[FrenchFan]

yes but I mean the All Blacks still play with flair. You adapt with rules and try marry what your good at with new rules. Clermont are a prime example of that they have that flair and can play that style but adapt too with rules and condition

>>the AB? but we dont care about the AB. We are not trying to copy the ABs.

 

[FrenchFan]

Excellent post and the only point I would add is that clubs like Toulon do not necessarily rely on private backers.....Toulon is now a profitable club in its own right that has increased its turnover by 500% , yes 500%, under Boudjedall and they are reinvesting the profits into players both imported and French qualified under JIFF.
>>yes you are correct. Boudjellal wants the club to be profitable and generate its own revenue. He is not the suggar daddy many are describing.


The reason why Toulon can afford the players it has and stil remain profitable is decent management and financial discpline. Nowhere is this exemplified better than the difference between Montpellier and Biarritz where they have similar annual cost budgets of around 17 million but the former is moving forward with some hefty good siginings and the latter is financially challenged and not been able to pay any decent money to attract decent players for a number of years and, hence, inevitable relegation this season and possible extinction.........!

>>absolutely and the 2 basque clubs of Biarritz and Bayonne may be force to merge if they want to survive. The merge is hard to imagine in sporting terms, but a necessity for their survival in the elite.

 

[munstermuffin]

>>style? ahem.. french flair again? what rugby era are you living in?
ranking? well yes there are currently 5th in the world. They have been in the top 5 for many years. Your team still couldnt get a win in the last 2 years home or away.

My team can't win???? Which and it opinions here you don't agree but if you think French game is fine fair enough

 

[FrenchFan]

France have ridiculous budgets and that's all well and good short term but in long term that money will dry eventually and rich owners will get bored. But the sad thing is short term it's been at cost of the national team. France used to be a really feared nation with world class guys all over and this flair that you could only applaud and watch in awe but now they are mediocre and probably play 1 of worst styles in 6N and just killed progress like there's not 1 world class 10 in France and what's even worst is if any club does well at least 60-70% of the heart is from abroad. People can slate Irish provinces but at least they keep it Irish and even English who have money bring in imports but keep large bulk of squad English too. You buy in talent but at times you can't put price on heart. And well your club Montpellier had talent but no heart what so ever.

>>sorry where did u see in Montpellier display in their pool game that they have no heart?! You think because you are irish Munster have the monopoly of heart and balls in rugby. What kind of raving BS is that

 

[munstermuffin]

>>sorry where did u see in Montpellier display in their pool game that they have no heart?! You think because you are irish Munster have the monopoly of heart and balls in rugby. What kind of raving BS is that

Never said Irish had monopoly as I think French sides like Toulouse and Clermont have heart. In 2 games vs Ulster I though Montpellier had no heart or interest.