Life after Eddie …

[Vieux Talonneur]

I think this deserves its own thread.

Post RWC, who do you want to see in the Head Coach role and what do you think the squad should look like?

To replace Eddie, I'd be most interested in either Edwards, ROG or Robertson, probably in that order. I don't outright hate the idea of Borthwick but he's a less inspiring choice IMO.

Our squad isn't actually that old, but I think there's a fair chunk of players that should no longer feature post 2023 - mostly on account of age/being past their best. For me that list (in no particular order) is Lawes, Tuilagi, Farrell, Youngs, May, George, Mako, and Billy. I'd also probably add Underhill, Watson, Ford and Sinckler to that list, albeit perhaps not immediately. I could see the latter two playing a potentially important transitional role which isn't needed as much on the flanks/in the back three.

The kind of squad I'd like to see moving forward is:

1. Genge / Rodd
2. Cowan-Dickie / Blamire / Oghre?
3. Stuart / Heyes / Harper? / Street?
4. Itoje / O. Chessum / Isiekwe
5. J. Hill / Ribbans / Tizard
6. J. Willis / T. Hill / Martin
7. T. Curry / Earl / Pearson
8. Mercer / Dombrandt / T. Willis
9. van Poortvliet / Quirke / Mitchell
10. Ford / M. Smith / F. Smith
11. Murley / Hassell-Collins
12. Kelly / Ojomoh?
13. Lawrence / Marchant* / Slade
14. Freeman / Radwan / Cokanasiga / Lynagh
15. Steward / Arundell

*Assuming we can tempt him back from France

Options at hooker (sub 30), tighthead and 12 are limited.

At hooker, Sam Riley has always been highly rated, but even as a Quins fan, I think he is going to be too small/light and his basics aren't brilliant. Early days but Theo Dan looks good for Saracens. I can't say anyone else really stands out for me …

At tighthead, I have high hopes for Harper at Sale if he can stay fit and get more game time. I know Street is highly rated, but I'm yet to see anything that really makes me buy into him being a future test prop.

12 is pretty bare as usual. I really hope Kelly is the answer - other than that it's either Lawrence out of position, a stretch on Ojomoh or someone like Hartley if he can find a club and regular game time (rumour is he's signing for Saracens).

I'm sure I've missed some obvious candidates, but that's what I've got for now …

Bit harsh on the 26 year old Underhill. Watson's only 28. Injury records count against both though.

Could really buy into Chessum / Isiekwe in the row

No love for B Curry or Dolly at hooker.

Interesting that none of the potential coaches named have any senior international experience.

 

[BPM]

Bit harsh on the 26 year old Underhill. Watson's only 28. Injury records count against both though.

Could really buy into Chessum / Isiekwe in the row

No love for B Curry or Dolly at hooker.

Interesting that none of the potential coaches named have any senior international experience.

In the case of Underhill and Watson I was thinking exactly that - a lot of injuries plus a lot of very good players coming through in the same positions.

Dolly is a good shout. I'd forgotten him entirely.

I feel sorry for Ben Curry, he's very good, but is he better than his brother, Willis, Earl or Underhill? It feels a bit harsh to say so, but I think the simple answer is no. Tom Pearson is very handy too, although Ben Curry is probably a bit better right now.

If I haven't mentioned someone it's probably because I forgot rather than intentionally showing 'no love'.

 

[Duck a l'Orange]

Ben Curry baffles me. He might not be 100% as good as Tom, but it'd be very surprising if he was that much worse. And Tom Curry was a genuine contender for world player of the year not that long ago.

Is he really not worth a look on that basis alone? Ben was even the original one picked for England before injury.

 

[Umaga's Witness]

Robertson has said he'd like to work with borthwick; next ABs coaches might be Joseph and brown

 

[Reiser99]

There is still a long way to go. We don't even know 100% who will be playing in the premiership next year. Hell, maybe England will perform a miracle and win the world cup.

All I want is for the next coach to pick players in form, in their position and not have players randomly dropped for not meeting a ridiculous set of criteria that's not made public.

 

[Geordie]

Well the potential 12's im aware of around the prem are:
More advanced and likely:
Dan Kelly

A work in progress:
Max Ojomoh
Lennox Anyanwu

Very raw with big potential - see how he goes at prem level:
Seb Atkinson (Worcester - has he got another club?)
Olly Hartley (Wasps - has he got another club? He is going to Saracens)
Ewan Greenlaw (Falcons)
Ethan Grayson (Saints)

 

[BPM]

Ben Curry baffles me. He might not be 100% as good as Tom, but it'd be very surprising if he was that much worse. And Tom Curry was a genuine contender for world player of the year not that long ago.

Is he really not worth a look on that basis alone? Ben was even the original one picked for England before injury.

Yes, but for a quirk of fate, it could have been Ben rather than Tom as on of the first names on the team sheet.

I think the issue is that style of play is pretty similar to his twin, so I'd regard him as a deputy for Tom. Our other options at 7 have other points of difference i.e. Underhill's defence, Willis' poaching skills and carrying, Earl's pace and linked game, Ludlam's puppy dog enthusiasm etc.

A couple of seasons ago when Ben Curry's form was consistently excellent, it was an obvious miss. Since then he's had a few injuries and hasn't really had a massively sustained run of form to press a case. In that time, Willis, Earl and Ludlam have all been more noteworthy and Underhill has years of good performances to fall back on. Could/should Ben be in the squad ahead of Pearson? Probably, although if it came down to form, I'd probably still pick Pearson.

 

[BPM]

Well the potential 12's im aware of around the prem are:
More advanced and likely:
Dan Kelly

A work in progress:
Max Ojomoh
Lennox Anyanwu

Very raw with big potential - see how he goes at prem level:
Seb Atkinson (Worcester - has he got another club?)
Olly Hartley (Wasps - has he got another club?)
Ewan Greenlaw (Falcons)

The rumour is that Hartley will link up with Saracens. As much as that thought annoys me, I can put aside my intense dislike of Saracens when it comes to being an excellent place for players' development.

I think Woodward at Tigers is highly rated too.

Ethan Grayson (Saints) was also good at U20 level as a second playmaker type of 12.

 

[Geordie]

Ben Curry baffles me. He might not be 100% as good as Tom, but it'd be very surprising if he was that much worse. And Tom Curry was a genuine contender for world player of the year not that long ago.

Is he really not worth a look on that basis alone? Ben was even the original one picked for England before injury.

Ben was actually the one called up first...and suffered a bad injury...thus Tom was called up...and Ben never got a look in again.

 

[Geordie]

The rumour is that Hartley will link up with Saracens. As much as that thought annoys me, I can put aside my intense dislike of Saracens when it comes to being an excellent place for players' development.

I think Woodward at Tigers is highly rated too.

Ethan Grayson (Saints) was also good at U20 level as a second playmaker type of 12.

Hartley could be a great link up with Sarries. They really could develop him brilliantly. And he a big unit aswell...

I forgot about Ethan Grayson...yes hes another thats definitely worth keeping an eye on.

Havent heard about Woodward.

We could be in good stock in a few years down the line...post WC basically.

 

[Geordie]

I missed that young Aflie bell the Wasps lock has gone to Exeter. Now thats another great move...they will really develop him well there!

 

[TRF_Olyy]

hasn't really had a massively sustained run of form to press a case

I disagree with this, his form has been consistently very very good, especially this season - a bing song and dance was made out of him vs Ludlow the other week and TC topped the tackles made and turnovers made charts, and scored try, while only played 45 mins.

That said: I agree with him not being in the EPS for the reasons you said (similarity to TC - though England are slowly morphing TC into more of a 6 IMO), even if I do think he is quite a bit better than Pearson.
What stings is when TC gets an injury and they look right past Ben and bring in someone else. Makes literally zero sense.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

At hooker, Sam Riley has always been highly rated, but even as a Quins fan, I think he is going to be too small/light and his basics aren't brilliant. Early days but Theo Dan looks good for Saracens. I can't say anyone else really stands out for me …

Wonder if that Barbeary chap has ever thought about converting to hooker?

Honestly with the back row options we have, I just don't see him getting a look in there. We have more skilful, better work rates, better defenders, quicker across the ground and better line out options. Where Barbeary scores highest is his pinballing carrying but I'm not sure that's enough of a USP these days.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Shouldn't have knocked the curries and pints on the head - he was far more destructive before he took the S&C seriously

 

[BPM]

I disagree with this, his form has been consistently very very good, especially this season - a bing song and dance was made out of him vs Ludlow the other week and TC topped the tackles made and turnovers made charts, and scored try, while only played 45 mins.

That said: I agree with him not being in the EPS for the reasons you said (similarity to TC - though England are slowly morphing TC into more of a 6 IMO), even if I do think he is quite a bit better than Pearson.
What stings is when TC gets an injury and they look right past Ben and bring in someone else. Makes literally zero sense.

Are they actually that similar in style of play though? I dare say you might have a more informed view, but having watched both on most of their televised games (and a few at the Stoop), my perception is that Ben is less physical but more skilful than Tom.

If Eddie has a similar view, it could be that he sees Tom's physicality and work rate as being better replicated by someone like Ludlam?

Ultimately, the back row is the most competitive position in the squad. A few years ago, we were crying out for one decent 7 and now we have several very good ones who can't make the squad.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Are they actually that similar in style of play though? I dare say you might have a more informed view, but having watched both on most of their televised games (and a few at the Stoop), my perception is that Ben is less physical but more skilful than Tom.

Tom definitely added some bulk and is a more powerful carrier for it, but I still think they're largely very similar - certainly more alike than they are alike to any other player in the league

Ultimately, the back row is the most competitive position in the squad. A few years ago, we were crying out for one decent 7 and now we have several very good ones who can't make the squad.

Yup, the dark days of picking Moody/Wood/Haskell at 7 are very much in the rear view mirror

 

[Geordie]

Haskell did a great job on that Aussie tour...but yes he wasnt a 7.

 

[Not Mike Brown's Sock]

I don't know if I see him as an international in waiting.

I distinctly remember you saying that to me like 2/3 years ago about Murley too on the quins forum

 

[BPM]

Did I? Strange as I'm a Murley super fan. If I did, maybe it's the ultimate seal of approval.

If they both prove me wrong, I'll be happy.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

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