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Quota Players Ruining Rugby!

You guys blame me for making skin colour an issue, yet you fail to see who's fault it is. It is SARU's and PDV's fault. Why is it my fault just for being angry that good whites are being robbed of their opportunities? Shouldn't it be the fault of the one(s) who is (are) ommiting deserving whites? I don't understand how you guys think. So, according to you guys, its fine to discriminate against whites, but its not fine for a white to complain about being discriminated against?

Why isn't there a quota system for the soccer team?

Rugbywriter brings up some good points. The SA rugby team are really handicapped by the quota system in place.

Good to know that some people can see what is right in front of them. We are expected to just "unite behind bafana" even though there are no whites, but blacks refuse to support rugby unless we put X ammount of blacks. So much bloody liberal hypocrisy. And now, just like the liberal mainstream-media, they are going to probably delete this entire thread as I'd assume I'm guilty of "human rights iinfingement". Any views where whites aren't made out to be the baddies are censored or not taken into account. That's how this liberal world works
 
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Good to know that some people can see what is right in front of them. We are expected to just "unite behind bafana" even though there are no whites, but blacks refuse to support rugby unless we put X ammount of blacks. So much bloody liberal hypocrisy. And now, just like the liberal mainstream-media, they are going to probably delete this entire thread as I'd assume I'm guilty of "human rights iinfingement". Any views where whites aren't made out to be the baddies are censored or not taken into account. That's how this liberal world works

Theres two versions of South African history. The one told by the media and the real one. Unfortunatly most of the worlds population get their information through the media and very few research things themselves.

Sorry I've just walked in on this Klan meeting and frankly it's getting out of hand.

Don't know if I can moderate or edit this without shutting it down. Will have to discuss with the other staff before I can do anything in any case. So, those of you with your favourite swastika flag can put it up again until I return.

That post is an example of the last point I made.
 
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Hmm, I think this thread may want to end here.

Obviously racial issues are such which can cause a real amount of emotion and as such should be dealt with more carefully. This has turned into an "us and them" situation which is not what anyone wants.

C A Iverson's comments were justified, not from media reports, but the aggressive stance that a few members have taken.
 
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Hmm, I think this thread may want to end here.

Obviously racial issues are such which can cause a real amount of emotion and as such should be dealt with more carefully. This has turned into an "us and them" situation which is not what anyone wants.

C A Iverson's comments were justified, not from media reports, but the aggressive stance that a few members have taken.

C A Iverson has no right labelling people something they're not. I personally wouldn't take any offense to that but I'll continue to point out how little sense it makes.
 
I will add one comment to the arguement, in that whilst rugbywriter has some valid points, there are errors.

It is not 'blacks' vs. 'whites', all the race related issues in SA are created by the ANC, educated Africans see past the ANC's shananigans, and then it is the uneducatedthat feed off the likes of Malema.

Why are white people leaving SA in droves? Because they know they can't do anything about the ANC, and it's actually not even just the whites, educated Africans are going to.

Blame the ANC, not blacks, you live in Durban right? Then surely you know about Sutcliffe? A white who hates whites, he follows the ANC closer than anyone.

Lifes ****, quotas are in place, taxes are high and the government never performs, so if you don't like it, then try change it; ie become a politician
 
I will add one comment to the arguement, in that whilst rugbywriter has some valid points, there are errors.

It is not 'blacks' vs. 'whites', all the race related issues in SA are created by the ANC, educated Africans see past the ANC's shananigans, and then it is the uneducatedthat feed off the likes of Malema.

Why are white people leaving SA in droves? Because they know they can't do anything about the ANC, and it's actually not even just the whites, educated Africans are going to.

Blame the ANC, not blacks, you live in Durban right? Then surely you know about Sutcliffe? A white who hates whites, he follows the ANC closer than anyone.

Lifes ****, quotas are in place, taxes are high and the government never performs, so if you don't like it, then try change it; ie become a politician

Yeah you're right. I meant what you said. I meant its blacks like the ANC and them, deffinitely not all blacks in general. Haha I think most people on this forum will agree that I'm not smart enough to become a politician;) , I know Zuma only did like 4 years of school, but the ANC can appoint a car guard as their president and he'll still get voted in. What I mainly meant to point out was that it is not whites who are causing the current issues. It is, like you say, the ANC.
 
This "transformation" kak is going a bit too far. You don't have to dig deep to find out that Peter de Villiers hates whites, but he's going a bit over board now. Whenever he gets the chance, he throws in a colourd. Never mind a black. He's bias towards colourds. While Ralepelle and Maku remain token political selections, all the other quota players are colourd, not black.

I am not at all insulting colourds. I am simply calling PDV a racist. First of all, lets look at last years E-O-Y-T. South Africa without question have the most depth with loose forwards in the world. So many quality players to choose from, this is deffinitely our best position. Which guys make it last year? Ashley Johnson and Davon Raubenheimer. Two colourds. I realise they were mid-week tourists, but there are much better guys that deserve the experience. Look at scrumhalf now. Ricky Januarie is now scrumhalf in Fourie du Preez's absence. Despite not being first choice at the Stormers, Ricky Januarie and his colourdness effortlessly makes his way into the Springbok team. This despite having guys like Duvenhage, Sarel Pretorious, Francois Hougaard and Jano Vermaak at our disposal. Ricky Januarie starting at scrumhalf is a blatantly racist selection.

You know what, let's look at Ralepeele and Maku. Maku is second choice at the Bulls. Ralepelle is third choice and playing Vodacom Cup. They both make it, and white Gary Botha, the first choice, does not. That is spitting in the face of whites its so racist. The only reason Gary Botha didn't make it is because he's white. The only reason Tiaan Liebenberg didn't make it is because he's white. The only reason Adriaan Strauss didn't make it is because he's white.

Who can forget the infamous Earl Rose saga? PDV didn't like him because he thinks he's talented, PDV likes Rose because he's tired of there never being a flyhalf who is of colour. Surely no one can dispute that Earl Rose is one of the biggest embarrasments to SA rugby. He made the Springbok squad last year but he couldn't even make the Lions match 22 this year. He's not good enough to get into a team that didn't win any Super14 games, yet aparently he's good enough to make the Springboks. I know he's not in the team now, but didn't PDV once say "Earl Rose will be the best flyhalf in South Africa"?What happened to that Div? Was your hatred of whites blinding you so that you couldn't see how useless Earl Rose is.

Fine, Juan de Jongh and Gio Aplon are playing well, but look at how quickly they were given their chance. As soon as the colourds show the slightest bit of form, they're in. Yet guys like Riaan Viljoen, Gerhard van den Heever and Francois Hougaard have to miss the cut because of their whiteness. Aplon won't last. I'm very happy he's playing so well but he weighs 75kkg's, he's 27 years old and been playing sevens till now. The bottom line is, he wouldn't have been playing sevens for so long if he was really Springbok worthy. The problem is that guys that small have to be at their very best all the time in order to be good. If they're not at their best, they'll get smashed. The same goes for De Jongh. He has lots of skill, but absolutely zero physicality. Guys like van den Heever and Riaan Viljoen deserved the chance a bit more.

Zane Kirchner. Need I even explain what a racist selection this is? This is just a clear example of how PDV hates whites. Fine, he had Frans Steyn in last year but that's only because the COLOURD Conrad Jantjies was injured. So, according to PDV, If it isn't Janjties, its Kirchner, if it's not Kirchner, it's Rose. Clearly Div has his mind made up that he wants a colourd fullback.

And Bjorn Basson? Really? Are you kidding me? He's not a bad player, but we have sooooooo much better! I can't believe he made the match 22! Actually, I can believe it - he's colourd.

And mark my words, when Ralepelle becomes captain, I am officially an AB supporter.

Cliff notes would be good.
 
Why isn't there a quota system for the soccer team?

Rugbywriter brings up some good points. The SA rugby team are really handicapped by the quota system in place.

I'm sorry, I said I wouldn't post, but I feel as though I have to. There isn't an official quota system in place, why do people think there is? People think there has been an issue, but if you really want to look at issues with quotas and racism, look at the New Zealand Maori, it isn't like South Africa have a ''blacks only'' team.

Really though, why is it whenever a black person is in the South African team that people don't think should be there they bring up quotas and racism. Heck, I think Zac Guildfords inclusion in the All Blacks is unjustifiable, as with Matt Banahan in the England squad. Everyone disagrees with the selection of their national teams, because it will never be 100% for someone. Just because you don't like Zane Kirchner it gives you no right to bring racism into it, because obviously he is a good player to win the Super 14. What would you say if John Smit was black? He was only in the team because of his colour? He is another one of those, why the hell is he in the team, because he isn't the best hooker or the best prop in country. Question that Einstein.

Just **** off and stop making a storm in a tea cup, you are really ******* me off, that is for you rugbywriter.
 
I'm getting seriously cheesed off with the way people are disagreeing with each other.

You can think what you want, that's what makes TRF a great place, but there is a serious issue underlying here with attitude. I am a fully qualified journalist, I have been pilloried for things I've written and it's tough but it's life. You just need to accept other people will have different views. Disagreement is good - when done rightly.

At the moment it isn't being done rightly. You can't go all defensive and circle the wagons. You need to look, listen, read, think. Pontificate. Say why you don't agree. Some of the posts I'm reading today are the equivalent of a stubborn politician with folded arms and a ***ty lip refusing to listen to any other views. The name calling is just as bad as well. Knock it off. If I want to see insults, I'll watch Picard vs. Corden from a few weeks ago.

Some of you seriously need to wind your neck in.
 
C A Iverson has no right labelling people something they're not. I personally wouldn't take any offense to that but I'll continue to point out how little sense it makes.

Who exactly did I label? I plainly had a light-hearted cheeky dig which suggests where these subjects can end up if not discussed fairly and with eyes on the issues not so much the shades of peoples skins. This whole subject could've referred to the policies involved and analysed things in a better manner. All I can see from here is bickering and cheap shots. Those are the kind of attitudes I'd associate with ignorance and intolerance, hence my comments.

Still, I made no direct reference to anyone in particular, so profitius needs to remember that he's not right about me labelling anyone.
 
Who exactly did I label? I plainly had a light-hearted cheeky dig which suggests where these subjects can end up if not discussed fairly and with eyes on the issues not so much the shades of peoples skins. This whole subject could've referred to the policies involved and analysed things in a better manner. All I can see from here is bickering and cheap shots. Those are the kind of attitudes I'd associate with ignorance and intolerance, hence my comments.

Still, I made no direct reference to anyone in particular, so profitius needs to remember that he's not right about me labelling anyone.

Ok, fair enough I misinterpreted your sense of humour. I've come across alot of people who do react like that and they're not joking so I like to point out how little sense they make.

Iron Mike said:
Really though, why is it whenever a black person is in the South African team that people don't think should be there they bring up quotas and racism. Heck, I think Zac Guildfords inclusion in the All Blacks is unjustifiable, as with Matt Banahan in the England squad. Everyone disagrees with the selection of their national teams, because it will never be 100% for someone. Just because you don't like Zane Kirchner it gives you no right to bring racism into it, because obviously he is a good player to win the Super 14. What would you say if John Smit was black? He was only in the team because of his colour? He is another one of those, why the hell is he in the team, because he isn't the best hooker or the best prop in country. Question that Einstein.

Race is important in this discussion because of the racial quota system. Its nothing got to do with disliking Black players.
 
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Sorry, I am probably a really ignorant or something, but I don't ever remember reading an official document saying that you must have X amount of black people in your team. If you can find a copy of this document, then I will back down and admit I am completely wrong and ******* ignorant. But as far as I am aware, there is no official document, the coaches don't have that X amount of black players must be in your selection policy, on their contract and they can pick whoever they want to play for them, so stop making it an issue and enjoy the Boks play some good rugby.

Just because some idiot in parliament who is a black supremacist thinks there should be more black players, doesn't make it so that there is a quota.
 
there was an official quota http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/rugby_union/6745879.stm

but they abandoned it after the world cup but i think rugbywriter is saying the black coach is still basing his selections on colour. i'm not for the quota at all and januarie was picked during 06 - 07 based on his colour i don't doubt that, but even still i always though januarie was a good player, i remember watching and wondering why SA never picked him in the team before coz i thought he was always a stand out halfback for SA. whether or not he's picked in the current squad based on colour idk but to be honest i'm glad he is picked coz i think hes a good player. kirchner however i don't think he's picked based on colour, even though i don't think he's that good i think he's being picked because he was part of the winning bulls team and i do think he has potential to be a good player in the future. he wasn't the best but he wasn't that bad either during the s14.
 
Sorry, I am probably a really ignorant or something, but I don't ever remember reading an official document saying that you must have X amount of black people in your team. If you can find a copy of this document, then I will back down and admit I am completely wrong and ******* ignorant. But as far as I am aware, there is no official document, the coaches don't have that X amount of black players must be in your selection policy, on their contract and they can pick whoever they want to play for them, so stop making it an issue and enjoy the Boks play some good rugby.

Just because some idiot in parliament who is a black supremacist thinks there should be more black players, doesn't make it so that there is a quota.

Hahahaha what do you think "transformation" means? It is a commonly accepted fact in South Africa that X amount of players have to be black. If you really believe this doesn't exist then you must be quite ignorant. How do you think Odwa Ndungane keeps making the team? The coaches DO have to put in X amount of blacks, fact.


When Nick Mallet chose an all white team to face Wales in 1998, the head of SARU flew all the way to Wales to **** him out. He made Mallet put blacks in the team.

And if Januarie was so good and so "solid" in this years Super14, why was he SA Rugby Magazine's flop of the season for the Stormers?

And Mike, I want you to read that link Muzzy provided us with, just so that you can see just how racist our black politicians are.
 
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Hahahaha what do you think "transformation" means? It is a commonly accepted fact in South Africa that X amount of players have to be black. If you really believe this doesn't exist then you must be quite ignorant. How do you think Odwa Ndungane keeps making the team? The coaches DO have to put in X amount of blacks, fact.


When Nick Mallet chose an all white team to face Wales in 1998, the head of SARU flew all the way to Wales to **** him out. He made Mallet put blacks in the team.

And if Januarie was so good and so "solid" in this years Super14, why was he SA Rugby Magazine's flop of the season for the Stormers?

And Mike, I want you to read that link Muzzy provided us with, just so that you can see just how racist our black politicians are.
What a sneering attitude. "Hahahaha" and "you must be quite ignorant", aren't really the way to make your point. Why not make your point with some dignity?

Also, you are interpreting the term "transformation". It could well mean exactly as you say it does, but what Mike asked was for something other than your say so.

Once again, please produce an official policy document.

At the end of the day, if your country has problems as bad as you make it out, then they are your problems, not ours. Your country puts a team on the paddock and we either win or lose. No excuses, your people in administration need to go sort out the problems and we'll play whoever ends up on the pitch.
 
When Nick Mallet chose an all white team to face Wales in 1998, the head of SARU flew all the way to Wales to **** him out. He made Mallet put blacks in the team.

And Mike, I want you to read that link Muzzy provided us with, just so that you can see just how racist our black politicians are.


I guess this is what you get when you treat people like **** for decades. What goes around comes around...
 
I guess this is what you get when you treat people like **** for decades. What goes around comes around...

That's not very nice is it? I'm not one to get into an argument like this, especially when statements like these come from people overseas that know nothing about what happens here apart from their media. Unfortunately, the statement is true in a sense. My generation, and all future generations of this country have to deal with repercussions that are in place because of our forefathers. I have had close friends and family slaughtered in racist crimes, and have to endure many unfair circumstances pertaining to work and general rights because of the color of my skin.

It's sad, but there is not much we can do about it. If you ask me, and i will give you an honest answer here, i don't think there will ever be common ground among races. It just doesn't work. Regardless of the many saints and 'peace figures' such as Nelson Mandela, or whoever else, it takes almost no effort for the hate to rear it's head in this country. What frustrates us most, is that it's not our fault, but rather the fault of the government and Afrikaner extremists of the 60's through to the 90's. But, like i have said, there is NOTHING wee can do about it, as this country will forever be a place ruled by the majority.

What happened in the past was wrong, but to a large extent, built what this country is today. Our great cities, minerals, infrastructure and GDP are a direct result of what the immigrants set out to achieve. When Europeans landed here, there were no cities, roads, or discovery of raw materials. What most people fail to realize, is that the white people of South Africa are the reason the country is what it is today. Unfortunately, instead of work together with the natives, in order to build what i think would have been one of the greatest nations on the planet, they put forth a system of 'apartheid'. I do not, in one instance, blame any of the black majority for feeling the way they do about us, because the way they were treated was appalling, and ruined any hopes we had of being 'united'.

I for one hate seeing politics in sport, but one or two dodgy selections will not make me go into a fit, because we are still World Champions, and are easily in the Top 3 rugby playing countries on the planet. It's very frustrating sometimes, but considering the turmoil we have experienced in the past, i think our rugby has done a fine job of continuing our tradition as the Springboks.

One thing i will ask though, is that none of you start a debate on our current 'political' position. Especially the members that know nothing of what is happening here, and don't have the slightest idea of what has happened regarding racism in the post-apartheid era. All it does is create arguments, and things are going to be said that will be regretted.

Rugbywriter, in my opinion, is merely voicing his frustrations at the rest of the world, so that his opinion on the matter can be heard. It happens with almost all new members. They join up, and immediately bombard the forums with every opinion they have on any matter regarding rugby and it's problems. I think calling our coach a racist is ridiculous. Go and read John Smit's autobiography, and you will quickly change your views on what kind of a person PdV really is. Nobody will ever be 100% happy with any Springbok side, and slamming him to no end is not going to solve anything. We are a dominant rugby playing nation, and we will continue to be, as long as we remember that through all of the ups and downs, we are South Africans, and will try our best to make everyone proud. I don't give a crap if our soccer team only has one white player in it. I still grasp my chest and sing as loudly as i can when that anthem plays and the camera pans over black faces who's names i cannot even pronounce.

Some of us have made peace with everything that happens day in and day out, whether it's crime, politics, or sport. I will always love this place like no other. Blemishes and all. Not everything that happens everyone agrees with, and even though i think Zane Kirchner is a horrible rugby player, i will swallow my pride and cheer if he has a moment that wins a game for us. We will never get over the color issue as a country, but once you accept it, rather than endlessly bemoan it, you will find things a lot easier to deal with!




Ok, i'm done.
 
Sorry, I am probably a really ignorant or something, but I don't ever remember reading an official document saying that you must have X amount of black people in your team. If you can find a copy of this document, then I will back down and admit I am completely wrong and ******* ignorant. But as far as I am aware, there is no official document, the coaches don't have that X amount of black players must be in your selection policy, on their contract and they can pick whoever they want to play for them, so stop making it an issue and enjoy the Boks play some good rugby.

Just because some idiot in parliament who is a black supremacist thinks there should be more black players, doesn't make it so that there is a quota.

Unfortunately not all documents produced by the SA sports associations/ministries are available to the public, but it has been commonly said by politicians and the budget commitee that any association that does not satisfy transformation requirements, will not recieve any funding or support.


My brother (who is white) was selected as the 7th member (out of 13) of the KZN cricket team, but he, and all the non-couloureds below him got taken out of the squad to be replaced by black players, and some of the selectors resigned, and we were told by the ones who resigned the the government was going to blacklist the KZN cricket board if they did not have at least 50% of the team black.
The same happened a year or 2 later, this time with rugby, however the quotas were not that extreme.

There are quotas in place, they have talked about in the media (through politicians), and, as I have just explained, there are quotas in force, to what extent I cannot say

I don't have an official document, there probably isn't one, and if you don't take my word, well then thats your choice
 
That's not very nice is it? I'm not one to get into an argument like this, especially when statements like these come from people overseas that know nothing about what happens here apart from their media. Unfortunately, the statement is true in a sense. My generation, and all future generations of this country have to deal with repercussions that are in place because of our forefathers. I have had close friends and family slaughtered in racist crimes, and have to endure many unfair circumstances pertaining to work and general rights because of the color of my skin.

It's sad, but there is not much we can do about it. If you ask me, and i will give you an honest answer here, i don't think there will ever be common ground among races. It just doesn't work. Regardless of the many saints and 'peace figures' such as Nelson Mandela, or whoever else, it takes almost no effort for the hate to rear it's head in this country. What frustrates us most, is that it's not our fault, but rather the fault of the government and Afrikaner extremists of the 60's through to the 90's. But, like i have said, there is NOTHING wee can do about it, as this country will forever be a place ruled by the majority.


Ok, i'm done.


Good post Jericho. Btw I am not taking any sides, just pointing the obvious. Right now, pretty much all western countries (except the US and Canada maybe and plus ex Soviet countries) are dealing with Apartheid/Colonial Past.
 
I didn't read all of what Jer1cho posted, because as complicated as this issue is, I just don't have time. I might read it later.

Generally, I am going to state what I think is the case of many non-South Africans on the forum.

I strongly get the impression that many of us feel that some of the South African fans are being very unsportsmanlike in their approach. Nothing is more frustrating than someone who has an excuse for everything and it's threads like that which lend credence to that.

Very few from South Africa are saying "If we lose, then South Africa lost, no excuses" "In relation to rugby development, we hate this policy". The two issues are being brought together to be an excuse for every loss. It's tacky. Nothing worse than a bad loser.

When Saracens and Leicester beat South Africa, they beat South Africa. It's your country who puts the team on the field.

Whether there is a bad government or not, it's South Africa playing.
Whether it's a bad policy or not, it's South Africa playing.
Whether the team is incorrectly selected in any way or not, it's South Africa playing.
Whether it's your A Squad or your Z squad, it's South Africa playing.

The results are the results of your country. How your country is as a whole, the turmoil or the stability, the stupidity or the common sense. This reflects in what happens on a micro and a macro level right throughout your rugby administration.

The strengths and the weaknesses of South Africa all come from South Africa.

If South Africa can't endure the results of the games they choose to play at International level, they shouldn't be playing International Rugby.

Whatever is going on from top to bottom, is South Africa and the rest of the world shouldn't have to void results in our minds, just because a "valid excuse" factory is in full swing.
 

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