Quota Players Ruining Rugby!

[alex]

White has insisted that Luke Watson is too small for international rugby, but politicians have said that he should be considered a black player and given selection preference

do you think maybe, just maybe, people should be selected due to their rugby, not their skin colour.

 

[Poezkaz]

Shimangi, Eddie Andrews, Bolla Conradie, Chilliboy, Solli Tabalika, Jocobz, Earl Rose and the list goes on. Their all are okayish - very good provincial players but were never the best in their position in the country.
I don't believe Pdv is a racist at all. From time to time politicians and top rugby Ceo's ie. Stofile and co. would force their hand if they feel the team needs more color. Your not gonna found a document that says the coach needs to includes quotas but he willl be reminded by the powers of SA Rugby how he got the job and what their expectations are, they have their own motives which is not always in the best intrest of SA Rugby. I recommend reading Jake White's book to get real good understanding of how SA Rugby operates.

This is one incident quoted from John Smit's book.
"But the journey of transformation will always encounter potholes along the way and. believe me, there are man. I can think back to 2004 when we had to prepare for the All Blacks in Jo'burg and the team had already been approved by Saru president Brian van Rooyen, with Fourie du Preez as the starting scrumhalf. However, on the Saturday morning of the Test, Jake White called me in and said he had been instructed to add more balance to the demographics of the team. He then had to call Fourie into his hotel room and tell him that he wanted to play a more attacking game against the All Blacks due to the good weather conditions, and was going to start with Bolla Conradie at no. 9. The whole episode was disgraceful, and it was handled badly by the powers-that-be. Had Jake known earlier, he would never been put in a position where he had to lie to a player, and this, in my opinion, led to the continual erosion of Jake and Fourie's relationship over the next couple of seasons"

Rugbywriter you give Saffas a bad name on here try and be modest and not so baist. You make some valid points but just goes about it in bad way.

 

[rugbywriter]

I guess this is what you get when you treat people like **** for decades. What goes around comes around...

How dare you! You do not know **** about South Africa!

Did we really treat blacks like ****? Lets go over some facts about apartheid:

During apartheid, black South Africans had a higher income per capita then blacks in any other African country.

During apartheid, South Africa's blacks were more literate then the blacks in any other African country

During apartheid, black South Africans had the longest life expectancy out of all the blacks in the African countries

During apartheid, black South Africans had the lowest infant mortality rates out of all the blacks in the African countries

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4f0INWfws0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5jHqQh7hxgc


Don't go running your mouth when you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about!

 

[Jer1cho]

I'm going to ask again. Nicely. Let's not get into that debate please. This forum is no place for that.

 

[Haysie]

I didn't read all of what Jer1cho posted, because as complicated as this issue is, I just don't have time. I might read it later.

Generally, I am going to state what I think is the case of many non-South Africans on the forum.

I strongly get the impression that many of us feel that some of the South African fans are being very unsportsmanlike in their approach. Nothing is more frustrating than someone who has an excuse for everything and it's threads like that which lend credence to that.

Very few from South Africa are saying "If we lose, then South Africa lost, no excuses" "In relation to rugby development, we hate this policy". The two issues are being brought together to be an excuse for every loss. It's tacky. Nothing worse than a bad loser.

When Saracens and Leicester beat South Africa, they beat South Africa. It's your country who puts the team on the field.

Whether there is a bad government or not, it's South Africa playing.
Whether it's a bad policy or not, it's South Africa playing.
Whether the team is incorrectly selected in any way or not, it's South Africa playing.
Whether it's your A Squad or your Z squad, it's South Africa playing.

The results are the results of your country. How your country is as a whole, the turmoil or the stability, the stupidity or the common sense. This reflects in what happens on a micro and a macro level right throughout your rugby administration.

The strengths and the weaknesses of South Africa all come from South Africa.

If South Africa can't endure the results of the games they choose to play at International level, they shouldn't be playing International Rugby.

Whatever is going on from top to bottom, is South Africa and the rest of the world shouldn't have to void results in our minds, just because a "valid excuse" factory is in full swing.

Craig, I think that's a very valid point, but I don't see the Saracens and Leicester victories over South Africa as them beating the country. I purely see those games (even as a non-South African) as practice matches during the week to give the dirties and the dirty-dirties game time and hone their skills.
I also think it's pretty fair to say that New Zealand as a rugby playing country is fairly exempt from forms of racism similar to the quota system, as is Australia. Whether or not we will ever fully understand the ramifications, politics, racial disparities and divides inside South Africa is doubtful.
This is why I value what Rugbywriter, Jericho et'al are saying and fully believe it, because any other perceptions that I have are purely based on Nelson Mandela's autobiography, news reports and several movies.

 

[rugbywriter]

I'm going to ask again. Nicely. Let's not get into that debate please. This forum is no place for that.

Tell Charles that! He has no right to say stuff like that! He must be put in his place!

 

[Jer1cho]

Clearly you didn't read my follow up post then did you?

 

[rugbywriter]

Clearly you didn't read my follow up post then did you?

I did but he needs to know the facts. I can't allow some guy from another country to think he knows my own country better then me

 

[Jer1cho]

That's fair, and i agree. Which is why i stated that this argument should not start. I also feel very strongly about criticism from abroad. Seriously though man. Stop calling people names. It's gonna get you banned.

 

[TRF C A Iversen]

Craig, I think that's a very valid point, but I don't see the Saracens and Leicester victories over South Africa as them beating the country. I purely see those games (even as a non-South African) as practice matches during the week to give the dirties and the dirty-dirties game time and hone their skills.
I also think it's pretty fair to say that New Zealand as a rugby playing country is fairly exempt from forms of racism similar to the quota system, as is Australia. Whether or not we will ever fully understand the ramifications, politics, racial disparities and divides inside South Africa is doubtful.
This is why I value what Rugbywriter, Jericho et'al are saying and fully believe it, because any other perceptions that I have are purely based on Nelson Mandela's autobiography, news reports and several movies.

Look, seriously if you have a point of view or opinion that the Saracens and Leicester games were not against South Africa, then that's fine. Your entitled to your own opinion. I am only basing it on fact. South Africa never chose to bill the games as South Africa A or any other ***le. Officially it was South Africa and they were responsible for fielding those teams. Were they weaker than usual, yeah sure, but that's Rugby, the dirt trackers still represent your nation, no matter what.

"I also think it's pretty fair to say that New Zealand as a rugby playing country is fairly exempt from forms of racism similar to the quota system, as is Australia. Whether or not we will ever fully understand the ramifications, politics, racial disparities and divides inside South Africa is doubtful".

That basically says that we can't comment because we don't understand South Africa to a certain degree. Well if that's the case the whole thread and anything on the forum ever relating to South Africa's unique issues should be locked. There should be nothing on the forum that not everyone can comment on.

There is racism in New Zealand Rugby, it's very nice racism and I support the team, but we have New Zealand Maori. Any way you slice it, tradition or otherwise it's a racially selected team. It doesn't impress me at all on that level, yet I respect the honour and the traditions within that team and the culture. Maybe no-one from another country can ever pass comment on that?

At the end of the day, when limited touring resumes and a mid-week Wales loses to NSW, or if New Zealand loses to Sale, or if Australia loses to Ospreys, it's tough luck, we can't just choose to say, "No, that wasn't the real team". The whole thing would be a joke otherwise.

 

[Haysie]

Look, seriously if you have a point of view or opinion that the Saracens and Leicester games were not against South Africa, then that's fine. Your entitled to your own opinion. I am only basing it on fact. South Africa never chose to bill the games as South Africa A or any other ***le. Officially it was South Africa and they were responsible for fielding those teams. Were they weaker than usual, yeah sure, but that's Rugby, the dirt trackers still represent your nation, no matter what.

"I also think it's pretty fair to say that New Zealand as a rugby playing country is fairly exempt from forms of racism similar to the quota system, as is Australia. Whether or not we will ever fully understand the ramifications, politics, racial disparities and divides inside South Africa is doubtful".

That basically says that we can't comment because we don't understand South Africa to a certain degree. Well if that's the case the whole thread and anything on the forum ever relating to South Africa's unique issues should be locked. There should be nothing on the forum that not everyone can comment on.

There is racism in New Zealand Rugby, it's very nice racism and I support the team, but we have New Zealand Maori. Any way you slice it, tradition or otherwise it's a racially selected team. It doesn't impress me at all on that level, yet I respect the honour and the traditions within that team and the culture. Maybe no-one from another country can ever pass comment on that?

At the end of the day, when limited touring resumes and a mid-week Wales loses to NSW, or if New Zealand loses to Sale, or if Australia loses to Ospreys, it's tough luck, we can't just choose to say, "No, that wasn't the real team". The whole thing would be a joke otherwise.

You are correct in saying that it was played under the ***le of "South Africa". But did it contribute to the IRB rankings? I didn't mean to say that they were unimportant games because they're not, they are important for blooding new players and building combinations. Another feature that seems to be lost is the experience of touring another country and playing at a club level against them, which these sorts of matches are great for. They can also build history! I'm sure these two games, particularly the Leicester game, will belong in folklore alongside Munster v New Zealand.

I don't agree with your interpretation of what I said regarding not being able to comment on anything South African. Surely the only way to gain knowledge in an area is to ask questions? Therefore in not understanding something you comment on it with what you know in a positive manner and can then appreciate the viewpoint of someone who has been there and lived through the exact thing that we are talking about.
In a hypothetical scenario, if I were to refute your own statements about the Rainbow Warrior incident, I bet you'd be pretty miffed! Just as if you were to say that the Australian Government has handled the reconciliation of Europeans with the Aboriginal people terribly, I would be ropable. These topics can't ever be fully understood by those outside their respective cultures (unless you are the world's most highly decorated sociologist). However if a topic on the Rainbow Warrior was started, I could fill in the gaps in my knowledge by asking questions.

 

[TRF C A Iversen]

You are correct in saying that it was played under the ***le of "South Africa". But did it contribute to the IRB rankings? I didn't mean to say that they were unimportant games because they're not, they are important for blooding new players and building combinations. Another feature that seems to be lost is the experience of touring another country and playing at a club level against them, which these sorts of matches are great for. They can also build history! I'm sure these two games, particularly the Leicester game, will belong in folklore alongside Munster v New Zealand.

I don't agree with your interpretation of what I said regarding not being able to comment on anything South African. Surely the only way to gain knowledge in an area is to ask questions? Therefore in not understanding something you comment on it with what you know in a positive manner and can then appreciate the viewpoint of someone who has been there and lived through the exact thing that we are talking about.
In a hypothetical scenario, if I were to refute your own statements about the Rainbow Warrior incident, I bet you'd be pretty miffed! Just as if you were to say that the Australian Government has handled the reconciliation of Europeans with the Aboriginal people terribly, I would be ropable. These topics can't ever be fully understood by those outside their respective cultures (unless you are the world's most highly decorated sociologist). However if a topic on the Rainbow Warrior was started, I could fill in the gaps in my knowledge by asking questions.

I note by your highlighted words that you may think I'm not being positive. I was merely being blunt, due to haste. I have been watching a tv series with my wife and she was on about me hurrying up and when it comes to that I simply type my point and nothing else, there wasn't much time for bending over backwards to appear nice.

On the subject I'm not talking about the racial selection policies. I'm only debating the excuses for losses that some South African fans have used on the forum lately. I'm concerned that this quota problem, may become the all-purpose excuse if they lose any Tri-Nations games. My point is if that is the case there's no point playing international rugby if you can't lose, because you have a ready made excuse.

 

[Haysie]

Sorry Craig, that wasn't at all directed at you, rather at the negativity in this topic in general!

 

[Charles]

Tell Charles that! He has no right to say stuff like that! He must be put in his place!

Can you point what's wrong in my post? What have I not the right to say? State bare historical facts is forbidden under you law, which applies here at TRF?

Are you going to deny the Apartheid and the general domination of the white minority on the black majority?


Don't dish it out if you can't take it.

 

[TRF C A Iversen]

Sorry Craig, that wasn't at all directed at you, rather at the negativity in this topic in general!

No, sorry from me Haysie. I just didn't have time to explain myself and sorry for appearing a little blunt, but it was just haste.

 

[Haysie]

Not a problem buddy! What TV series is it, by the way? Any good?

 

[TRF C A Iversen]

Not a problem buddy! What TV series is it, by the way? Any good?

It's old as and very weird, but funny. Twin Peaks. Not sure why I'm enjoying it, but it's a slow paced murder mystery in an insane town, where everyone is a bit odder than they were in the episode before.

 

[nickdnz]

That's not very nice is it? I'm not one to get into an argument like this, especially when statements like these come from people overseas that know nothing about what happens here apart from their media. Unfortunately, the statement is true in a sense. My generation, and all future generations of this country have to deal with repercussions that are in place because of our forefathers. I have had close friends and family slaughtered in racist crimes, and have to endure many unfair circumstances pertaining to work and general rights because of the color of my skin.

It's sad, but there is not much we can do about it. If you ask me, and i will give you an honest answer here, i don't think there will ever be common ground among races. It just doesn't work. Regardless of the many saints and 'peace figures' such as Nelson Mandela, or whoever else, it takes almost no effort for the hate to rear it's head in this country. What frustrates us most, is that it's not our fault, but rather the fault of the government and Afrikaner extremists of the 60's through to the 90's. But, like i have said, there is NOTHING wee can do about it, as this country will forever be a place ruled by the majority.

What happened in the past was wrong, but to a large extent, built what this country is today. Our great cities, minerals, infrastructure and GDP are a direct result of what the immigrants set out to achieve. When Europeans landed here, there were no cities, roads, or discovery of raw materials. What most people fail to realize, is that the white people of South Africa are the reason the country is what it is today. Unfortunately, instead of work together with the natives, in order to build what i think would have been one of the greatest nations on the planet, they put forth a system of 'apartheid'. I do not, in one instance, blame any of the black majority for feeling the way they do about us, because the way they were treated was appalling, and ruined any hopes we had of being 'united'.

I for one hate seeing politics in sport, but one or two dodgy selections will not make me go into a fit, because we are still World Champions, and are easily in the Top 3 rugby playing countries on the planet. It's very frustrating sometimes, but considering the turmoil we have experienced in the past, i think our rugby has done a fine job of continuing our tradition as the Springboks.

One thing i will ask though, is that none of you start a debate on our current 'political' position. Especially the members that know nothing of what is happening here, and don't have the slightest idea of what has happened regarding racism in the post-apartheid era. All it does is create arguments, and things are going to be said that will be regretted.

Rugbywriter, in my opinion, is merely voicing his frustrations at the rest of the world, so that his opinion on the matter can be heard. It happens with almost all new members. They join up, and immediately bombard the forums with every opinion they have on any matter regarding rugby and it's problems. I think calling our coach a racist is ridiculous. Go and read John Smit's autobiography, and you will quickly change your views on what kind of a person PdV really is. Nobody will ever be 100% happy with any Springbok side, and slamming him to no end is not going to solve anything. We are a dominant rugby playing nation, and we will continue to be, as long as we remember that through all of the ups and downs, we are South Africans, and will try our best to make everyone proud. I don't give a crap if our soccer team only has one white player in it. I still grasp my chest and sing as loudly as i can when that anthem plays and the camera pans over black faces who's names i cannot even pronounce.

Some of us have made peace with everything that happens day in and day out, whether it's crime, politics, or sport. I will always love this place like no other. Blemishes and all. Not everything that happens everyone agrees with, and even though i think Zane Kirchner is a horrible rugby player, i will swallow my pride and cheer if he has a moment that wins a game for us. We will never get over the color issue as a country, but once you accept it, rather than endlessly bemoan it, you will find things a lot easier to deal with!




Ok, i'm done.

Very good post. Although I think the problem of race is bound to one day be solved, maybe not in the foreseeable future. It does have to be hard being born today in South Africa, because you inherit all the problems of the past. In NZ, there is still a whole 'make it up to the Maori's' initiative, but nothing to that level. I agree with your point on new members, however rugbywriter really is constantly over stepping the mark. I understand he wants to vent his frustrations, however when he attacks other members for different views, it gets a bit much (not that you have anything to do with it).

Iverson and Charles, a friendly suggestion, this topic is a very sensitive one, and rugbywriter is a very angry person. It's best to just leave this here.


Iverson and Charles, a friendly suggestion, this topic is a very sensitive one, and rugbywriter is a very angry person. It's best to just leave this here.

 

[TRF C A Iversen]

Yeah I'm resigned to not getting through and South Africa being the winner on the day no matter what results come through, win lose or draw due to the "quota" being the reason if it's a loss.

 

[Jer1cho]

Yeah I'm resigned to not getting through and South Africa being the winner on the day no matter what results come through, win lose or draw due to the "quota" being the reason if it's a loss.

Please rather state that to the person you are aiming it at, because that is a bullshit post if you are directing it at all of us. How is a useless comment like this going to solve anything? This entire thread is just one posters anger and frustration. Don't make out like every South African poster has the same view.