[RWC2023] France vs New Zealand (08/09/2023)

[Leonormous Boozer]

NZ just don't have many great players. Let's just say it out loud. I'd take Jordan, Smith, Savea and Retallack into Ireland's team. A lot of good players but not enough great playywont get you far... Trust me.

 

[Johnny Storm]

There appears to have been a real deemphasis on size with the current AB squad. Colin Meads and Jonah Lomu would have really stood out on the field for their size if they had been on the park tonight. Don't get me wrong, it is not all important but they seem to have run out of sheep farmers and other big fellas in NZ these days.

 

[OllyM97]

I don't think France got out of second gear there really. They were nervy in the first half but once they got a grip on the game they were very impressive in choking the life out of NZ. I know the ABs were missing a few key starters, but that was limp. Mind you the key starters argument isn't really valid when France were missing Ntamack, Danty and Baille who would be certainties if they were available. 15 and 14 point victories to In the last two meetings between the teams. It's a fair reflection of the quality of both sides.

 

[ThebigARena]

Superb second half from France merci bon nuit ! NH1 v SH 0

 

[corny]

I will watch the game on replay, but I don't think Foster can really inspire players. He might be a good technical coach, but a coach needs to inspire as well. And he might lack that.

I thought the NZ'ers were committed and gave everything to the cause. That wasn't a problem but it only takes you so far. They were second best in the set piece throughout and when the French upped the pressure in the second half they had no answer in the tight stuff. I don't know what Foster can do about that tbh.

 

[Horacito]

Weakest AB's side in years. Tries feel opportunistic and weak, based on tactic and ont strategy.
Dunno, dunno, it seems kiwis can execute like no one and not able to build a top side like the saffas or the irish, or the french.
Man I like french rugby,
vive la republique!
francia carajoo
un saludo

 

[Horacito]

Care to provide some detail in what about the head coaching you think is wrong? I'm not saying there is nothing to what you are saying but the trend is that people who go on about how crap foster is simply can't back it up with any reasonable arguments, it's mostly just pack mentality and people not realising that we actually don't have the best players in the world anymore. Where people do provide reasons, it's typically confirmation bias.

To me the mental fragility has come mainly from the media pressure the players have had over the last few years.

Players were poor. Some of this is due to feeling pressure at all blacks level (eg Taylor, mounga), some of it is just things (especially discipline) that are acceptable at super rugby level aren't at test level (eg papalii, jordan, newell, beauden).

Selection disruptions and players coming back from injury didn't help either.

Strike plays were a positive for this game. That's fosters role.

For the record I'm not saying foster is a great coach, just that I rarely hear good rationale as to why he's not.

Well, I don't know if I'm capable of making a whole argument right now, in terms of analytics and such, but there seems to be large portions of AB's game in which they seem flat. A major new zealand team should be able to have options that brake the tackle, get a penalty... any type of advantage, but this one didn't. Bad kicks, bad passes, just FLAT. It was tries and just flat passing. A savvy Kieran Reid AB's woulda get those chances and scored more points
I also felt Beauden Barret runs were slower, maybe i'm projecting sice we're the same age, but he wasn't as super fast as he was before.
saludos.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

I think the question needs to be asked of how much of NZs current apparent poor form is actual poor form and how much is other teams improving, making it that much more difficult for them to play the game they want.

 

[Lé Ddanno]

I think the question needs to be asked of how much of NZs current apparent poor form is actual poor form and how much is other teams improving, making it that much more difficult for them to play the game they want.

And the game has been the same for at least 10 years. Shut down the 50-70 minute counterattack and you have a *very* good shot

 

[TRF_Ezequiel]

That's Peyper's head

How this guy is a ref at the world cup in 2023, I will never understand.

 

[MarcusLawrence]

Is this the best opening game ever?

It's between this one and 2007 as that was a huge upset, but for entertainment value definitely this one.

 

[TRF_Ezequiel]

It's between this one and 2007 as that was a huge upset, but for entertainment value definitely this one.

I would so tonight's game is a massive upset too. First time New Zealand ever lost a group stage game, and it's their biggest loss (I think) in world cup history.

 

[MarcusLawrence]

I would so tonight's game is a massive upset too. First time New Zealand ever lost a group stage game, and it's their biggest loss (I think) in world cup history.

Bogey team as well.

Yep, it's officially their biggest loss in the World Cup.

 

[IT157]

NZ just don't have many great players. Let's just say it out loud. I'd take Jordan, Smith, Savea and Retallack into Ireland's team. A lot of good players but not enough great playywont get you far... Trust me.

Starting to think Beauden Barrett is underrated....

 

[IT157]

I think the question needs to be asked of how much of NZs current apparent poor form is actual poor form and how much is other teams improving, making it that much more difficult for them to play the game they want.

I think it does a bit of disservice to other teams when all the talk is about the demise of the All Blacks. Perhaps the other teams just closed the gap more in recent years.

 

[TRF_Ezequiel]

Starting to think Beauden Barrett is underrated....

I think the biggest difference for the All Blacks now is that they do not really have any leaders on the team. In the 90s, they had Mehrtens, Fitzpatrick, Brooke. In the 2000s, you had Umaga, Thorne, Howlett. Then the 2010s with Carter, McCaw, Read. Sure, they didn't win any world cups between 1987 and 2011 but those teams in the 90s and 2000s were more cohesive than what they have now.

Who do you have now? Beauden Barrett? Whitelock? Good players, no argument there, but these are not guys that will wake you up when the game is not going your way.

This just seems like a transition that is lasting a bit too long and carries over to a WC unfortunately for NZ. The future leaders of this team aren't there yet, and the veterans aren't the type of leaders that carry a team through these rough patches.

With 3 "easier" games coming up they have time to work on their set plays and gain some confidence before they face either Ireland or South Africa. That could be the key here for them.

 

[die_mole]

I'm now kind of on the Hanson is hard done by train.
Leadership and mental fortitude can certainly put you over the top but first you have to have the horses to win the game.

Other than lock and the centers is there any position position where you would favor New Zealand? France are just really good and the All Blacks are very good. I think France were small favorites before hand so it's not that big of a shock.

I do think the heat played a part in the game. France looked rough after about 20 minutes and New Zealand struggled in the second half. France and Argentina have been on the continent for a month now so I wonder how other nations will adapt to the rainforest like conditions.

Was impressed with how Marchand was replaced, does this Bougarait becomes the new 16 . . . I can only hope?
Jalibert was good. Impressive he has 26 caps at 24 despite being injured and second choice for a chunk of his career.

 

[Derpus]

I don't really buy the 'other teams have just improved" angle.

Compared to 2015 the All Blacks have fallen off a cliff. They were looking to play three players whose natural position is openside in the backrow. Crazy.

Other teams have improved a bit, sure (although others have gotten much worse - England, Wales, Aus). But the peak All Blacks had near perfect players in every position less than 10 years ago. Now just about every position is some kind of compromise.

That 2015 team of the All Blacks was, in my humble view, the greatest rugby side to ever take the field.

 

[IT157]

I don't really buy the 'other teams have just improved" angle.

Compared to 2015 the All Blacks have fallen off a cliff. They just played three players whos natural position is openside in the backrow. Crazy.

Other teams have improved a bit, sure (although others have gotten much worse - England, Wales, Aus). But the peak All Blacks had near perfect players in every position less than 10 years ago. Now just about every position is some kind of compromise.

That 2015 team of the All Blacks was, in my humble view, the greatest rugby side to ever take the field.

I think that is a strongly regarded view.

 

[Derpus]

I think the biggest difference for the All Blacks now is that they do not really have any leaders on the team. In the 90s, they had Mehrtens, Fitzpatrick, Brooke. In the 2000s, you had Umaga, Thorne, Howlett. Then the 2010s with Carter, McCaw, Read. Sure, they didn't win any world cups between 1987 and 2011 but those teams in the 90s and 2000s were more cohesive than what they have now.

Who do you have now? Beauden Barrett? Whitelock? Good players, no argument there, but these are not guys that will wake you up when the game is not going your way.

This just seems like a transition that is lasting a bit too long and carries over to a WC unfortunately for NZ. The future leaders of this team aren't there yet, and the veterans aren't the type of leaders that carry a team through these rough patches.

With 3 "easier" games coming up they have time to work on their set plays and gain some confidence before they face either Ireland or South Africa. That could be the key here for them.

Having had to sit through the pain that is Super Rugby Pacific I don't know that they have the cattle coming through to replace those players.