[RWC2023] France vs New Zealand (08/09/2023)

[Umaga's Witness]

All blacks players have got worse, other countries players have got better. For many, predictable, reasons.

In my view the head coaches main roles are to
1. Foster the right mindset, noting other factors impact this too
2. Foster a cohesive team through selection process, again other factors influence this too

He could definitely have done better on those counts, but people tend to blame him for things that aren't his fault, like player quality and things that are the responsibility of assistant coaches.
It's not his fault if the details are Schmidt

 

[IXNZ]

Embarrassing performance from the AB's for an opener.

I think the occassion is getting to them!

 

[saulan]

Honestly think New Zealand peaked in the Rugby Championship, SA has peaked in the warm-ups and one of the others is going to get their peaking at just the right time when it gets to knock out rugby. Watching that game last night there is definitely a significant advantage at winning Group B and playing NZ than being second and having to play France at home.

For SA, I do worry about our ability to sustain our current performance levels over the next 7 weeks. I don't think France have peaked, but I think with yet another injury they're starting to look a bit like Wales in 2019. Hopefully the injuries stop and they don't go to the same extent that they did though.

 

[Stade Rochelais]

I think that the loss of South African teams in super rugby was a determining factor in the weakening of rugby in the southern hemisphere, we can see this with Australia which became an ordinary team.

 

[saulan]

I think that the loss of South African teams in super rugby was a determining factor in the weakening of rugby in the southern hemisphere, we can see this with Australia which became an ordinary team.

Australia are their own worst enemy, I think their governance and not doing enough to develop the attraction of the game and engagement at younger levels is coming to roost. Rugby is what? The third or fourth most supported rugby union-like sport down there.

New Zealand have been consistently shaky since the last World Cup. They went old guard method of coach rather than going with some of their more successful, innovative coaches available. They need a switch to Schmidt or Razor as soon as they get knocked out.

 

[higgik]

I think the biggest difference for the All Blacks now is that they do not really have any leaders on the team. In the 90s, they had Mehrtens, Fitzpatrick, Brooke. In the 2000s, you had Umaga, Thorne, Howlett. Then the 2010s with Carter, McCaw, Read. Sure, they didn't win any world cups between 1987 and 2011 but those teams in the 90s and 2000s were more cohesive than what they have now.

Who do you have now? Beauden Barrett? Whitelock? Good players, no argument there, but these are not guys that will wake you up when the game is not going your way.

This just seems like a transition that is lasting a bit too long and carries over to a WC unfortunately for NZ. The future leaders of this team aren't there yet, and the veterans aren't the type of leaders that carry a team through these rough patches.

With 3 "easier" games coming up they have time to work on their set plays and gain some confidence before they face either Ireland or South Africa. That could be the key here for them.

Sounds a familiar issue with a team in white with a rose.
All the best teams have players that can stay calm under pressure and support those who cannot, as sometimes, even the captain may suffer.

 

[Wichita]

I am not buying this "weakest AB team ever" thing, look at the rugby championship results a few weeks ago. They do not have the best scrum in the world, but they can attack from every corner of the field and they surely can defend.
What is obvious is that this AB team lacks leadership so when things start to get awry, they do not know how to collectively adjust, they just let go and let the opponents impose their rhythm. It was clearly the case against SA two weeks ago, and it happened again yesterday in the second half.
What is also obvious is that France has leadership aplenty and that once they regroup, they can turn up the pressure on any opponent until it chokes...

 

[TopTen2003]

I don't really buy the 'other teams have just improved" angle.

Compared to 2015 the All Blacks have fallen off a cliff. They were looking to play three players whose natural position is openside in the backrow. Crazy.

Other teams have improved a bit, sure (although others have gotten much worse - England, Wales, Aus). But the peak All Blacks had near perfect players in every position less than 10 years ago. Now just about every position is some kind of compromise.

That 2015 team of the All Blacks was, in my humble view, the greatest rugby side to ever take the field.

It was an awesome side. I really liked the 2005 side too but it's that "in between" world cups stage and of course they didn't go on to win in 2007, so perhaps the 2015 side has to be the ultimate one.

 

[TopTen2003]

I am not buying this "weakest AB team ever" thing, look at the rugby championship results a few weeks ago. They do not have the best scrum in the world, but they can attack from every corner of the field and they surely can defend.
What is obvious is that this AB team lacks leadership so when things start to get awry, they do not know how to collectively adjust, they just let go and let the opponents impose their rhythm. It was clearly the case against SA two weeks ago, and it happened again yesterday in the second half.
What is also obvious is that France has leadership aplenty and that once they regroup, they can turn up the pressure on any opponent until it chokes...

Agree, think that's what impressed me most about France yesterday- soaked up the pressure and reassured and re established themselves in the game to win handsomely in the end. French teams of old may not have done that but this year they reminded me of England 2003- able to shake off any wobbles or setbacks and just got on with sorting the nuts and bolts out, and the rest followed. Awesome win.

Penauds interview on RTE afterwards was telling- said losing yesterday didn't knock you out of the tournament and winning it doesn't make you champions, so they just seem to have their mindset spot on so far.

 

[Stade Rochelais]

Guys, as much as we talk about the All Blacks, we must also say that French rugby has been on the roof of Europe for several years. This victory for the French team is simply logical, and it is a confirmation of the domination of French rugby on the old continent.

-Defending champion and three-time winner of the champion cup (H-Cup)
*Toulouse stadium 2021
*Rochelais Stadium 2022
*Stade Rochelais 2023

-Defending champion and three-time winner of the European Challenge.
*Montpellier 2021
*Lyon Or 2022
* RC Toulon 2023.

The French under-20 team was the 2023 Rugby world champion

French rugby is at its peak.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

It's a bit of both.

France are very good, but have been totally targeting this tournament for years.

It's not a vintage ABs team either, although maybe Robertson will be able to get more out of the group. The point above about them not really having the power rings true. In the row Whitelock and Retallick remain good, but no longer the world's best combo or feared. The next cab off the rank is Barrett who's obviously underpowered even if he does make some good yards with some smart angles.

 

[Derpus]

I think that the loss of South African teams in super rugby was a determining factor in the weakening of rugby in the southern hemisphere, we can see this with Australia which became an ordinary team.

This is the least accurate take imaginable. But a forgivable error. I can see how it might look that way from afar.

Rugby in Aus has been on the wane from 2005 onwards and we are only really now seeing the fruits of errors made decades ago. This is an unpopular view but NZ are on the same trajectory IMO - they are just 10 years behind.

If anything the terrible (truly awful) format adopted to accommodate the Saffas contributed to the decline (though only a small factor).

 

[Derpus]

Australia are their own worst enemy, I think their governance and not doing enough to develop the attraction of the game and engagement at younger levels is coming to roost. Rugby is what? The third or fourth most supported rugby union-like sport down there.

New Zealand have been consistently shaky since the last World Cup. They went old guard method of coach rather than going with some of their more successful, innovative coaches available. They need a switch to Schmidt or Razor as soon as they get knocked out.

Its probably third in terms of TV viewership but in participation its comfortably fourth. And in terms of all sports its way down in the 30s or 40s.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

Yeh went as I expected. ABs not getting enough front foot ball. When I saw Talea trying to run it after receiving the ball a good 40m out and just running into to the French defence I could see it was going to be a long 2nd half despite his 2 tries.

That pretty much secures top spot for France. Winning despite not playing brilliantly but winning the collisions. Ireland v SA to probably decide who they meet.

 

[Alex Anghel]

Well, we can safely say now that Foster has broken all the All Blacks records...sadly, they happen to be on the wrong side of the ledger...Absolutely shocking to put three openside flankers in the starting lineup just because you couldn't or didn't want to develop specialist loosies during this WC cycle.

Strange game anyway, NZ started strong on both halves, and in the first one they kept France in the game by not being able to capitalize on several opportunities near the try line and by allowing silly penalties. They crumbled to dust in the last 35 minutes and the bench was useless (how Christie got the nod in front of Roigard in beyond me).

Having said that, for me, this must probably be the weakest AB RWC side I have ever seen....or at least the most undercoached one.

Anyways, if yesterday's game is any indication of things to come performance-wise/current form, I don't see either team getting past the QF.

 

[Which Tyler]

I would so tonight's game is a massive upset too. First time New Zealand ever lost a group stage game, and it's their biggest loss (I think) in world cup history.

Historically true, history matters not one jot in a RWC, too much turn over in players and coaches.
I don't think you can ever call a higher ranked team beating a lower ranked team (at home) an upset of any variety, let alone a massive one.

Penauds interview on RTE afterwards was telling- said losing yesterday didn't knock you out of the tournament and winning it doesn't make you champions, so they just seem to have their mindset spot on so far.

Let's hope he actually means it, rather than saying what he needs to think.
Plenty of teams say that sort of thing, including most teams you'd look back and say they played their final a week early (England '19, France '99 being the classic examples).

For me, there's a real risk that, whilst knowing they're supposed to think that way, France see the next 3 matches, all around the country, as a procession on the way to their inevitable and rightful victory - only to get knocked on their arse by SA/Ire. I truly hope not, but it worries the hell out of me.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Starting to think Beauden Barrett is underrated....

He's no Hugo Keenan!

I'm feeling smug after this one tbh, had taken a lot of stick saying NZ were a distant 4th in the world. Great result for Ireland too, I think we can beat France and would be heavy favourites v NZ. Starting to hope a little bit, which is usually when things start to go bad...

Feel bad for Joe Schmidt, from about 2010 - 2018 he was an elite elite coach, best in the world territory. Feel like the game has past him by and his style is difficult to adapt. Will always be a legend in Ireland but failed to make his mark a bit elsewhere.

 

[Derpus]

He's no Hugo Keenan!

I'm feeling smug after this one tbh, had taken a lot of stick saying NZ were a distant 4th in the world. Great result for Ireland too, I think we can beat France and would be heavy favourites v NZ. Starting to hope a little bit, which is usually when things start to go bad...

Feel bad for Joe Schmidt, from about 2010 - 2018 he was an elite elite coach, best in the world territory. Feel like the game has past him by and his style is difficult to adapt. Will always be a legend in Ireland but failed to make his mark a bit elsewhere.

Irish fan feeling smug eh. Original.

 

[dullonien]

I would so tonight's game is a massive upset too. First time New Zealand ever lost a group stage game, and it's their biggest loss (I think) in world cup history.

The 'first loss in the group stages' thing is missleading though. They're usually in very easy groups with their toughest opposition being Italy or a poor Sctoland etc.

 

[Umaga's Witness]

So the bookies odds to win the World Cup have changed a lot since this game; they're becoming more realistic but New Zealand still shorter odds than Ireland. Crazy.