[RWC2023] France vs New Zealand (08/09/2023)

[Al Bangor]

Well done France. Congratulations!

 

[Booboobang]

All blacks players have got worse, other countries players have got better. For many, predictable, reasons.

In my view the head coaches main roles are to
1. Foster the right mindset, noting other factors impact this too
2. Foster a cohesive team through selection process, again other factors influence this too

He could definitely have done better on those counts, but people tend to blame him for things that aren't his fault, like player quality and things that are the responsibility of assistant coaches.
It's not his fault if the details are Schmidt

I will answer your reply to my initial point on this.

That isnt the only roles of a head coach.
Roles of a head coach go to:

1. Hiring the best assistants you can for the player base to fill your limitations - unmitigated failure, his hand picked guys where poor, only turned around when NZRU repalced his staff for him. You say blaming him for things that are sisstant coahes role, that is just bogus, he hired them, he is responsible for ensuring they are delivering.
2. Selection, pick your best players - again failure, Sam Cane as captain when he isnt even in the top 3 backrowers in NZ, sticking with mckenzie for so long when it was obvious he wasnt an international guy just a great club guy. Stayed with older guys far to long in the front row rather than bringing in the guys who then led to teh turn around. Took far to long to commit to barret at 12. it goes on and on.
3. Keeping standards high as well as disipline - Again, this is the biggest factor going against the narrative of 'its the players' After the NZRU put world class assistants around them they won, in one of games they went big, if the players were dross they wouldnt be able to do that. Disipline has been bad, numbers are there.
4. Adapting to injuries and replacing players - again, and unmitigated failure, when NZ lose a starter they are up **** creek as foster doesnt adapt the system, often goes with senseless picks.

As for your coment on 'the stike game was good, thats his role' No, his role is to be over all phases and ensure it is clicking, he is the head coach. I could keep going on, but the record speaks for itself, his NZ head coach record is awful by comparision to his peers, and if it was just that then maybe you have a point, but his club record is not good either. The man has broke every possible bad record you can get for NZ finished of with losing in the pools last night. As for the comformationg bias, that argument goes both ways, you think it is all the players therefore will happily overlook a coach that is objectively bad and was hired on nepotism rather than ability.

 

[TRF_Ezequiel]

The 'first loss in the group stages' thing is missleading though. They're usually in very easy groups with their toughest opposition being Italy or a poor Sctoland etc.

Some times, yes. But in 5 tournaments they've had a serious opponent in their group. They still won all 6 of these

1991: England
1995: Ireland
1999: England
2003: Wales
2011: France
2019: South Africa

 

[Which Tyler]

Wait, what?
Ireland were a "serious opponent"?
In 1995?
Seriously?

What was Ireland's best 5N performance in the 90s? 4th?

I mean, yeah, someone's got to be in the "5th-8th seed" position, but that doesn't make them a necessarily serious opponent.

 

[TRF_Ezequiel]

Wait, Ireland were "serious opponent"?
In 1995?
Seriously?

More serious than Italy

 

[Stade Rochelais]

What do you think of Jaco Peyper's refereeing, the second All Black try was on a front of at least 5 meters, he stubbornly refused video refereeing !

Je pense qu'il voulait éviter un QF Afrique du Sud - All Black, c'est mon avis personnel...

In Ireland, the idle would be repeated 10 times in the 30 seconds after the test. Completely screwed up the production...

France - Nouvelle-Zélande : y avait-il en-avant sur le deuxième essai des All Blacks ?

Le deuxième essai néo-zélandais, inscrit par Mark Telea, paraissait suspect sur le terrain mais n'a pas été invalidé par Jaco Peyper, l'arbitre du match.

www.lequipe.fr

France - Nouvelle Zélande : Jaco Peyper arbitre de manière très controversée, la toile s'enflamme

Après des pénalités généreuses et des coups de sifflet aléatoire, Jaco Peyper est dans le viseur de la toile

www.dailysports.fr

 

[Which Tyler]

More serious than Italy

Sorry, I thought you were holding them up as serious opponents, not "better than Italy"
Even then, between the NZ teams of 1995 and 2023 vs Ireland 1995 & Italy 2023 - I'd say the gap was significantly bigger in 1995 (1987 would be a different matter)

As for the mid-90s, Italy beat Ireland 3 out of 4 meetings

 

[Wichita]

What do you think of Jaco Peyper's refereeing, the second All Black try was on a front of at least 5 meters, he stubbornly refused video refereeing !

Je pense qu'il voulait éviter un QF Afrique du Sud - All Black, c'est mon avis personnel...

In Ireland, the idle would be repeated 10 times in the 30 seconds after the test. Completely screwed up the production...

France - Nouvelle-Zélande : y avait-il en-avant sur le deuxième essai des All Blacks ?

Le deuxième essai néo-zélandais, inscrit par Mark Telea, paraissait suspect sur le terrain mais n'a pas été invalidé par Jaco Peyper, l'arbitre du match.

www.lequipe.fr

France - Nouvelle Zélande : Jaco Peyper arbitre de manière très controversée, la toile s'enflamme

Après des pénalités généreuses et des coups de sifflet aléatoire, Jaco Peyper est dans le viseur de la toile

www.dailysports.fr

The forward pass rule is difficult to apply, because contrary to what many fans (and players) think, forward does not apply to a relative position on the field, but to the movement of the player releasing the ball. There is a good IRB video to understand the logic.
In this specific case, the AB 10 was not running at full speed, so the momentum of the ball might not be enough to explain why the ball travelled that far ahead. But it is still a difficult one to assess, even for the TMO. Still, M. Peyper was in my opinion too soft about reckless entries in the ruck or tackling players without the ball, usual issues with the ABs.

 

[TRF_Ezequiel]

The forward pass rule is difficult to apply, because contrary to what many fans (and players) think, forward does not apply to a relative position on the field, but to the movement of the player releasing the ball. There is a good IRB video to understand the logic.
In this specific case, the AB 10 was not running at full speed, so the momentum of the ball might not be enough to explain why the ball travelled that far ahead. But it is still a difficult one to assess, even for the TMO. Still, M. Peyper was in my opinion too soft about reckless entries in the ruck or tackling players without the ball, usual issues with the ABs.

I think this is what you're referring to

 

[IT157]

I think this is what you're referring to

Interesting. Thanks for posting

 

[Wichita]

I think this is what you're referring to

Yes, that's the one. Once I saw this video, I realized how tricky this is to make an instant decision. Relatively easy for a 2 yard pass, but quite difficult for a long pass when players are at full speed.
Still, in this case, Mo'unga has no momentum, so the pass might be forward, but I would not blame either the Ref or TMO, this is a difficult one.

 

[OldSchoolRugga]

Just watched the full game.

France won the game with some good moments. However, NZ paint a sorry picture. First game of the World Cup, you would expect a NZ team to come out firing. They were flat/deflated and a bit all over the place. Telea's tries were good. The amount of up and unders is astonishing in modern rugby. NZ have moved away from a basic principle in rugby, in that you cannot play without the ball. The amount of kicking they do is really alarming.

Happy France won as for a host nation and potential World Champion, it's a good start.

 

[TRF_Ezequiel]

Yes, that's the one. Once I saw this video, I realized how tricky this is to make an instant decision. Relatively easy for a 2 yard pass, but quite difficult for a long pass when players are at full speed.
Still, in this case, Mo'unga has no momentum, so the pass might be forward, but I would not blame either the Ref or TMO, this is a difficult one.

The only really bad call by Peyper was not giving a yellow card to Telea for the intentional knock on early in the 2nd half.

Forwards passes are not as easy to call but that intentional knock was a clear cut yellow.

 

[ncurd]

Not reviewing the forward pass was the bad bit.

1999: England
2003: Wales

1999 England was merely the correct parts but wasn't a side that was ready to compete. Their demise in that tournament was a demonstration of this.

Pre-Gatland Wales with laughably bad. Especially early 2000's. Not as bad as they are now but they are plumbing new depths.

 

[Mr.cyclopede]

Honestly think New Zealand peaked in the Rugby Championship, SA has peaked in the warm-ups and one of the others is going to get their peaking at just the right time when it gets to knock out rugby. Watching that game last night there is definitely a significant advantage at winning Group B and playing NZ than being second and having to play France at home.

For SA, I do worry about our ability to sustain our current performance levels over the next 7 weeks. I don't think France have peaked, but I think with yet another injury they're starting to look a bit like Wales in 2019. Hopefully the injuries stop and they don't go to the same extent that they did though.

Oppositely think we will get Danty and Baille for the Italy game and the QF.
Pool B has chance to be likely more physically selective for SA and IRE, within their own pool game not to have France in QF, and also with Scotland wich has a chance and ressources to come in.

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

I think this is what you're referring to

The pass back over your head is very eye opening. I still think Reiko's pass should have been reviewed to check how the ball left the hands and what his forward momentum was. Probably not enough to overturn the on field decision given the length of the pass and some forward momentum from Reiko. Peyper is a complete pro-attacking play ref though, so if anyone is going to err on the side of allowing a borderline forward pass it is probably him.

In other news, I am very happy to see Dupont describe the French performance as 'average'. I do not think that is false modesty on his part either. I think France will have been surprised how meekly NZ just fell away in the second half and know that they will not get that from their opponent in the QF.

 

[Mr.cyclopede]

The only really bad call by Peyper was not giving a yellow card to Telea for the intentional knock on early in the 2nd half.

Forwards passes are not as easy to call but that intentional knock was a clear cut yellow.

Not easy to call, especially when it leads to that 2nd try ? what a joke.

 

[Mr.cyclopede]

Historically true, history matters not one jot in a RWC, too much turn over in players and coaches.
I don't think you can ever call a higher ranked team beating a lower ranked team (at home) an upset of any variety, let alone a massive one.


Let's hope he actually means it, rather than saying what he needs to think.
Plenty of teams say that sort of thing, including most teams you'd look back and say they played their final a week early (England '19, France '99 being the classic examples).

For me, there's a real risk that, whilst knowing they're supposed to think that way, France see the next 3 matches, all around the country, as a procession on the way to their inevitable and rightful victory - only to get knocked on their arse by SA/Ire. I truly hope not, but it worries the hell out of me.

Following Penaud, I don't think this is a what to tell or to think talking. Not a kind of player who likes media talking, and I think Galthié is pro enough to clearly assume, with all the coaches, the « official« communication. The team are cold heads and hands, that's a pretty a revolution for Frenchies, but associated with individuals extraordianary players, and a serious collective preparation started four years ago, a brain-teaser for their challengers. Next two games will be a physical and finishing preparation, moeover Italy one to physically reintegrate Danty and Baille.

 

[TRF_Ezequiel]

Not easy to call, especially when it leads to that 2nd try ? what a joke.

It went backwards from his hands but momentum carried it forward. This isn't rocket science. Just because a ball is carried forward by a player's momentum, doesn't automatically make it a forward pass. It probably was in this case but the TMO should have stepped in to review. The referee in real-time can't see that since the pass went backward from the hand.

I think this is what you're referring to

Watch this.

 

[TRF_Ezequiel]

The pass back over your head is very eye opening. I still think Reiko's pass should have been reviewed to check how the ball left the hands and what his forward momentum was. Probably not enough to overturn the on field decision given the length of the pass and some forward momentum from Reiko. Peyper is a complete pro-attacking play ref though, so if anyone is going to err on the side of allowing a borderline forward pass it is probably him.

In other news, I am very happy to see Dupont describe the French performance as 'average'. I do not think that is false modesty on his part either. I think France will have been surprised how meekly NZ just fell away in the second half and know that they will not get that from their opponent in the QF.

Yeah, that was really insightful and I remember when I first watched this video when it was just released, thinking "Damn, I never thought of it that way"