Sam Burgess U Turn

Discussion in 'Rugby World Cup 2015' started by valley commando, Oct 28, 2015.

  1. Tony Manx

    Tony Manx TRF Season Ticket Holder

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    There was a double page spread but that was the gist of that section!

    You get access to their site for up to about 10'click throughs per month free? Or is that the DT?
     
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  3. Tallshort

    Tallshort International

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    Take they are not very supportive of SB?
     
  4. Tony Manx

    Tony Manx TRF Season Ticket Holder

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    Simon Jones says he was simply out of his league, Bath chief says he is sorry he quit but can't keep an unhappy player! DM conjecture on whether Souths knew he was coming back before the RWC quoting sources down under saying the move was brig lied up last season!!

    Am trying to find the article I quoted!!
     
  5. Tony Manx

    Tony Manx TRF Season Ticket Holder

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    Thought was going mad again! Article is on front of the sports section by Mark Souster headed "Burgess farewell snubbed by Bath".

    He reportedly contacted Hooper by phone and was told not to come to training to say farewell as he had "cut and run" and it would not go down well! The rest of the article has been widely stated elsewhere concerning how the transfer happened, let the club down, etc!
     
  6. ncurd

    ncurd International

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    Doesn't surprise me as noted the guy trained with them for two to three days and got selected after two weeks off before saying he was off. Can't imagine too many people in the bath camp being happy about that turn of events.
     
  7. Tony Manx

    Tony Manx TRF Season Ticket Holder

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    Me neither and I am more of the persuasion that it was always the plan to go for the RWC 2015 and then revert a la SBW!
     
  8. smartcooky

    smartcooky Referee Coach and Advisor

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    From a neutral perspective, I don't think SB was give a fair shake by England rugby. His transition to RU was grossly mismanaged. For starters, they couldn't make up their minds where to play him; Bath saw Burgess as a flanker, England played him at inside centre. Now to be fair, Burgess had played both second row and midfield back in RL, and while thisis not uncommon in RL, e.,g. Brad Fittler, Joel Thompson, Mitchell Aubisson, Simon Mannering & Ruben Wiki, the game is a different animal.

    England's difficulties in the midfield haven't been anything to do with Burgess. Its been that they seemed for many years to be unable to settle on a combination. Just looking at the matches between NZ and England since the 2011 World Cup

    England.............................New Zealand

    2012 Barritt/Tuilagi.......... - Nonu/Smith
    2013 Twelvetrees/Tomkins - Nonu/Smith
    2014 Eastmond/Tuilagi..... - Nonu/Smith
    2014 Twelvetrees/Burrell.. - Nonu/Smith
    2014 Eastmond/Tuilagi..... - Nonu/Fekitoa
    2015 Eastmond/Barritt.... - Williams/Smith

    Five different centre pairings in six matches. In the 126 matches England have played between RWC 2003 and the start of RWC 2015, they have used 43 different 12/13 pairings. Over the same period, NZ have used 12, including over 60 tests by Nonu & Smith. If anyone has scapegoated Sam Burgess for England's problems in the midfield, then that is very unfair IMO. Brad Thorn took two years to change from RL to RU and get a berth in the All Blacks; he turned down his first AB jersey because he wasn't sure he was ready, but went on to become one of our best ever lock forwards. Even SBW was given a number of low-level club games before being used sparingly in Super Rugby until he found his feet.

    Burgess was brought in as a quick fix, and it failed. Not his fault!
     
  9. Tony Manx

    Tony Manx TRF Season Ticket Holder

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    It has been disputed that Lancaster sought him out. The true story is yet to come out but it will!!

    Also he had a voice and could have made it clear whether he wanted to play centre or not? He could certainly have made this clear when contract negotiations with Bath - not with England- were taking place!

    He could also have made it clear to England management what and where he wanted to play?

    My overall impression is he wanted to play in the RWC desperately and would play where they wanted him but always with an eye on a return to Aus!!

    Lastly, not sure where the idea that he was heavily criticized for his performances came from. Certainly I have not seen it.....indeed, many pointed out he was taken off against Wales when England were leading!!
     
  10. TRF_Olyy

    TRF_Olyy English Arrogance

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    How was Burgess not given a fair shake by England?
    He chose to leave and they really wanted him to stay. It's not like they've turned to him and said "Look, the RWC was a disaster, how about you jog off back to Australia?".

    If he'd have stayed then Lancaster would've definitely had him in the first choice 23 come the 6N.
     
  11. smartcooky

    smartcooky Referee Coach and Advisor

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    How many actual games of rugby had be played before being selected in the England RWC squad? 10? 12? And not all in one position?

    IMO, he was chucked in at the deep end. Even I could see he was out of his depth at centre, not because he was a poor player, but because he didn't have the experience at that position. You are a dual coder aren't you Olly? You of all people should know how 12 and 13 in RU differs positionally and defensively from 3 and 4 in RL. It takes more than six months and a dozen games to not instinctively revert to what you have spent a lifetime doing; look how long it took SBW to put the shoulder charge away!!
     
  12. TRF_Olyy

    TRF_Olyy English Arrogance

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    Ah, I see where you're coming from now - I thought you meant that they were discarding/scapegoating him.

    I think that Andy Farrell made a promise to him of playing in the RWC when he was convincing him to code hop.
     
  13. valley commando

    valley commando BANNED!!!

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    Anybody seen this from BBC website-:

    English rugby union is a "laughing stock" after Sam Burgess left Bath to return to rugby league, says former national coach Sir Clive Woodward.

    Burgess, 26, made the decision having been part of the England squad which had a poor World Cup as hosts.

    Woodward did not blame Burgess "for this mess" but said the English game was at one of its "all-time lows".

    England rugby league coach Steve McNamara said Burgess "could've been one of the greats" had he stayed.

    "The RFU has spent the last four years congratulating itself on the direction in which we're heading, but the truth is we have marched confidently into a total mess," said World Cup-winning coach Woodward in his column for the Daily Mail.

    "We are the laughing stock of not only world rugby but also sport and business. The rest of the world says those involved in English rugby are arrogant. I hate this reputation, but that is exactly what the RFU has been.

    "The saddest part is the players and fans have been let down. To get it right on the field of play you have to get it right off the field."
     
  14. Tony Manx

    Tony Manx TRF Season Ticket Holder

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    As usual the BBC is getting its news at least a day late from other news outlets! They really are a shambles!
     
  15. The Jones Boy

    The Jones Boy First XV

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    It was everywhere, even on here where the poms were cussing the poor bloke and rigging him up like a guy fawkes
     
  16. Tallshort

    Tallshort International

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    When was that?
     
  17. TheOvalBall

    TheOvalBall First XV

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    I've never been a fan of Rugby League, and World Rugby needs to stop this switching back and forth between the codes. It's beyond a joke.
    Save the integrity of Union by only allowing rugby union players to play union.
     
  18. The Jones Boy

    The Jones Boy First XV

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    Only the best can manage to swap codes effectively. The number of players who do cross over is very small
     
  19. austingtir

    austingtir First XV

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    When they took him from playing at 6 for bath or whatever and then basically straight into the england squad and hello he's now a center or 12 or whatever. I just laughed. Not only is he not the all round athlete SBW is but they give him no time whatsoever to transition to a totally different (and totally unknown to Burgess) position in rugby union.


    For anyone to vent only at Burgess about all this is totally ridiculous imo.

    It was a hair brained idea right from the start by ALL involved. You cant really blame Burgess for taking it on as a challenge but given the time frame it was nothing but pure stupidity.


    Burgess is good at hit ups and defending other than that he was just highly unlikely to develop any true skill as a rugby union center. SBW to his credit took a longer road and basically did his time so to speak at a lower level of union before he came back to NZ and EARNT his way into the AB's.....
     
  20. Tallshort

    Tallshort International

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    And thats the big difference, SBW earned his place on merit, Burgess was indulged and the end result was a right royal cock up for everyone.
     
  21. TRF_Peat

    TRF_Peat Super Moderator

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    Burgess had a lot less opposition for a place than SBW did. I mean, ignoring Burgess for a moment, look at the other centres in the squad and work out what the England coaching team collectively thought of the guys they left out. People talk about being indulged and Lancaster being starstruck and the rest of it and there's an element of it there fair enough... but also an element of a man completely desperate to find something and therefore willing to gamble on anything. After all, arguably Lancaster's biggest mistake of the WC was taking him off, not taking him at all...

    Anyway, Burgess has told his side of the story, all over the web, I'll let someone else find the story but interesting highlights are that a) he didn't want to be in a sport with that much backbiting, or so he says (media stuff) b) he thought it would take him 18 months to make it as a blindside - no offence mate, but if you hadn't worked out it would take 2-3 years to really hit your peak, you're not that bright...
     
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