Scotland - Six Nations 2012

[Seaton]

Not so clear cut it seems re Shingler



SRU response

Thursday, 05 January 2012
Scottish Rugby complies with International Rugby Board regulations and guidelines regarding the status of potentially Scotland qualified players.
Today we have named Steven Shingler in our squad for the opening two matches of the 2012 RBS 6 Nations Championship.
Steven's mother was born in Dumfries and although he played for Wales under-20 against France under-20 last season, Steven has confirmed to Scottish Rugby that he declined to sign a declaration from the WRU that he was committed solely to representing Wales at senior level.
Steven has informed us that he made it clear that he wished to leave open his international eligibility as he was also eligible to represent Scotland and England as well as Wales.
Scottish Rugby believes we have acted in good faith in this matter and have also taken cognisance of an IRB ruling last year concerning two players who played for Wales under-20 against France under-20 in 2010 who now play for Connacht and are eligible for Ireland.
We are liaising with the IRB on this matter.
"The art of life is to deal with problems as they arise, rather than destroy one's spirit by worrying about them too far in advance" - Cicero

 

[psychic duck]

If Steve Shingler is eligible for England and Scotland ... then that means that Aaron Shingler is as well ... and he hasn't even played U20 for Wales ... England better not touch

Draggs, regarding Tuilagi he moved aged 13, on a holiday visa and 6 years later it emerged he had overstayed his holiday visa and was deported until he changed the decision via appeal

 

[dullonien]

It's also more difficult for people to understand when brothers play for different countries. I was never happy with Cockbain playing for Wales when his brother was playing for Aus (Brent's strong Austrailian accent didn't help). Likewise, it would be odd to see Aaron Shingler playing for Wales and Steve playing for Scotland despite the same upbringing. When so many of Manu's brothers have represented Samoa, it's easy to understand why some people question Manu's involvement with England. I don't really care, the rules have been set by the IRB and neither England, or Manu are breaching them. Manu's come through the English ranks afterall. Faletau, like many, many other players has spent the majority of his life in Wales, and certainly all his rugby playing career in Wales, and I view him as being as Welsh as the next guy.

Not so clear cut it seems re Shingler



SRU response

Thursday, 05 January 2012
Scottish Rugby complies with International Rugby Board regulations and guidelines regarding the status of potentially Scotland qualified players.
Today we have named Steven Shingler in our squad for the opening two matches of the 2012 RBS 6 Nations Championship.
Steven's mother was born in Dumfries and although he played for Wales under-20 against France under-20 last season, Steven has confirmed to Scottish Rugby that he declined to sign a declaration from the WRU that he was committed solely to representing Wales at senior level.
Steven has informed us that he made it clear that he wished to leave open his international eligibility as he was also eligible to represent Scotland and England as well as Wales.
Scottish Rugby believes we have acted in good faith in this matter and have also taken cognisance of an IRB ruling last year concerning two players who played for Wales under-20 against France under-20 in 2010 who now play for Connacht and are eligible for Ireland.
We are liaising with the IRB on this matter.
"The art of life is to deal with problems as they arise, rather than destroy one's spirit by worrying about them too far in advance" - Cicero

Not this again. You'd have thought the IRB would have sorted out the ruling propperly. If Shingler refused to sighn the declaration, then what does that mean. He can't refuse to sign, yet still play, otherwise every player would just incase, and the IRB rules would be useless. Who's fault was it that he still played, the WRU or Shinglers? The WRU have nothing to lose, so to me it's Shingler's fault for still agreeing to play the match, in which case tough luck...

If Steve Shingler is eligible for England and Scotland ... then that means that Aaron Shingler is as well ... and he hasn't even played U20 for Wales ... England better not touch

Aaron has played 7's for Wales. There's no grey area there like there is with the U20 situation. So Aaron is certainly only Welsh qualified.

 

[Draggs]

I refused to criticise Cockbain. He turned up for so many matches and played his heart out even though we were completely outgunned time and time again. He put more into that jersey than many Welsh-born players have.

Agree about the document he signed/didn't sign, Dull. Who cares?? He played and that is what matters. We might as well throw out all eligibility laws if something like that usurps it.

I suppose there is no time for sentiment in the professional game:

"It'll be nice to show that I'm still here and in the mix and hopefully I can put in a good performance and get people talking about how well I performed and show them that I am one for the future.

"I would be massively proud to play for Scotland," he said. "My upbringing from my mother means I've always known about Scotland."

Big deal, I have known about Scotland for ages. (AR will probably come knocking on my door now...)

 

[Peat]

Right so:
Arthur Ellis, released by Newport RFC and now playing for Bridgend Ravens.
Hugo Ellis has made a few NGD appearances but failed to make an impact. Jevon Groves of Cross Keys is seen as the better option during internationals.
Jamie Smith has been plagued by injuries (hamstring, now back) and only appeared once.

Toby moved to Ebbw when he was seven, and has played most of his rugby in Wales. (Was spotted at Filton college, but apart from that)
Patchell follows Jarvis and Shingler in being another rangy standoff, except he is as pale and ginger as they come. Nipper was born in England, but nothing like an English standoff.

Yeah, I noticed that Patchell was rather ginge, what's with this sudden spate of ginger fly-halves? Patchell, both Jacksons, Clegg...

Anyway, cheers, I wasn't just jokingly trolling you but genuinely curious. To think that Hugo Ellis was once going to be England's future captain, one of the more dramatic cases of unfulfilled potential there.

It seems mildly ridiculous that a player can opt out of a match tying them to a country to say the least. I would quite like the IRB to come out with a clear and transparent set of guidelines on the situation so everyone bloody knows.

While I am straining the limits of credulity and reality with my desires, a blowjob from Natalie Portman would really hit the spot right now.

 

[TRF_Cymro]

Boys I have had the privileged of playing cricket against Aaron Shingler and when I did he did have a sort of Welsh accent

In all seriousness, Steven is eligible for Wales, the rules was made quite clear cut to the U20's during this years 6 Nations. All the boys were told that this would bind them to Wales and if anyone did not want to play then they were allowed to walk away from the U20. Shingler knew this and still decided to play for Wales U20.

 

[Peat]

Boys I have had the privileged of playing cricket against Aaron Shingler and when I did he did have a sort of Welsh accent

In all seriousness, Steven is eligible for Wales, the rules was made quite clear cut to the U20's during this years 6 Nations. All the boys were told that this would bind them to Wales and if anyone did not want to play then they were allowed to walk away from the U20. Shingler knew this and still decided to play for Wales U20.

But not apparently to sign the bit of paper binding him, in which case he is officially not bound. Apparently. Possibly.

 

[TRF_Cymro]

But not apparently to sign the bit of paper binding him, in which case he is officially not bound. Apparently. Possibly.

He was informed prior to the singing of the paper and he did not object. As it stands Shingler should not be eligible for Scotland. He played for Wales U20 and thats that.

 

[Draggs]

The paper should mean ********. What is the point of having a 'second side' if its only at certain times, and then if a player signs.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Settled, really. He pulled on the shirt and played for Wales U20, so should be locked to Wales.


p.s. I realise the picture is the wrong match, but the sentiment still stands.

 

[TRF_Cymro]

WELSH RUGBY UNION RESPONSE TO SRU STATEMENT - SHINGLER
The Wales U20 team is currently the WRU nominated side for qualification which means that players who represent Wales at this level in certain games are then solely qualified for Welsh senior honours.
All Welsh players who represent Wales at U20 level against nations which also designate their U20 teams as their qualification sides are informed that they will then be registered as liable for Wales selection only at senior level.
Steve Shingler played for Wales U20’s against France in 2011 before which he was specifically informed, as were his fellow squad members, that the match would confirm their sole qualification as potential Wales senior international candidates.
Shingler was told by the U20 team management that if he played in the game he would become a Wales qualified player and therefore ineligible for selection for any other nation.
The regulations and guidelines relating to qualification compliance are set in accordance to IRB regulations and any questioning of these regulations should be directed to the IRB.
We have made the IRB aware of this issue today and will be returning to it as a matter of urgency in the morning.
Simon Rimmer

 

[Peat]

He was informed prior to the singing of the paper and he did not object. As it stands Shingler should not be eligible for Scotland. He played for Wales U20 and thats that.

Did he actually sign? From the sounds of it he didn't.

The paper should mean ********. What is the point of having a 'second side' if its only at certain times, and then if a player signs.

Agreed, but that's clearly up for debate in how legally applicable it is.

 

[Draggs]

Did he actually sign? From the sounds of it he didn't.

Agreed, but that's clearly up for debate in how legally applicable it is.

I read the IRB directives over this pretty well during the Jarvis ordeal, and nowhere did it say players had to sign an agreement. The binding factor was playing against the 'second nominated team', in this case France.
The WRU haven't addressed this issue yet, but are going ahead so I can only imagine that they don't see this as an issue. If he doesn't play for Scotland, his Welsh career is pretty much done as well.

 

[dullonien]

If he doesn't play for Scotland, his Welsh career is pretty much done as well.

I wouldn't think so. If he starts playing out of his skin, I doubt the Welsh coaches, or the Welsh public would care about this debacle. Will anyone even remember 6months to a year from now? Playing his trade outside of Wales will hurt his chances though.

 

[Peat]

I read the IRB directives over this pretty well during the Jarvis ordeal, and nowhere did it say players had to sign an agreement. The binding factor was playing against the 'second nominated team', in this case France.
The WRU haven't addressed this issue yet, but are going ahead so I can only imagine that they don't see this as an issue. If he doesn't play for Scotland, his Welsh career is pretty much done as well.

Well that'd make sense, as it's sane, but Scotland clearly reckon there's something there and from the sounds of it they've talked to someone in the IRB or they wouldn't be trying this.

 

[TRF_Cymro]

​

WRU response ...

 

[jordiev]

as much as I love weir and think he is undoubtedly the future for Scotland in this six nations id like to see laidlaw with shingler (if he is aloud to play) in the centres just to get the fast free flowing game that the wings have been crying out for

 

[dullonien]

I highly doubt Shingler will be allowed to play. I understand why Loxton and that other bloke were allowed to become Irish qualified, because they were unaware of the rule when they played for Wales U20, but Shingler was well aware as Cymro has pointed out several times. The IRB rules seem quite clear, and the WRU are adamant they fully informed Shingler about the concequences of playing. Whether he did or did not sign a piece of paper is not here or there really, as the IRB law doesn't mention needing a signature. It was probably a measure that the WRU brought in to try and avoid another incident. Maybe the WRU shouldn't have allowed Shingler to play without signing, but it doesn't really take away from the fact that Shingler knew what the law was before stepping foot onto the field.

 

[racingmetrofan]

I don't believe that '2nd XV' sides should count as caps and tie a player in only to that country. tbf some of these players are capped and encouraged to be capped at like 18-19 for a second team - it seems a bit unfair to basically be tied to a county after one decision when you are 18-19, for what is not imo a proper, international team.

So I sympathise with Shingler, and really hope he is allowed to play for Scotland.

As far as I'm concerned, if you tied to country when you play a proper international - e.g. a 6 nations game or a summer tour game. Under 20s or whatever shouldn't really count, nor should '2nd teams'.

 

[Draggs]

Perhaps, but those are the laws as they stand right now.
I think the IRB need to reevaluate national qualifications. I think it should be:
-Birth
-48 Months Residency
-Parentage

Four years over three is a greater commitment, and grandparent qualification is simply too far.