Tom Donnelly selection proves Racist NZ Maori team hurting ABs.

[Jake Heke]

one more thing... it's the players fault if they don't make the national xv and get no game time. if they weren't good enough throughout the super 14 then it's their fault. not the Maoris. besides, haven't there been issues with players in the professional era playing TOO MANY games?? hahah

Right, and my last addition (hopefully) to this thread, I'm pretty farkin sure the Players themselves are not sitting at home angrily now wishing they could play for the NZ Maoris, I'm sure they would have better things to worry about like the upcoming NPC or enjoying a nice break from their intense season just gone.

 

[nickdnz]

Now bear with me as i try to explain this. Graham Henry has complained that there is no level of rugby for Donnelly to gain Test match fitness outside the Allblacks. This of course isn't true. NZ Maori play England (Test playing nation obviously) in New Zealand on Wednesday. It is in fact the Perfect game for Mils and Donnelly to prove/ gain match fitness. Perfect except for the fact that some players can't play for the NZ Maori not because they aren't good enough obviously but because they weren't born to the right parents. The continuation of the 'unique' ( the only racially selected rugby union team in the world) NZ Maori team is not only morally wrong, it is also negatively affecting prospective ABs ( E.g Alby Mathewson) and Current ABs (Mils and Donnelly).

In light of Timana Tahu's brave stance against Racism in League, Maybe its time a few NZ Maori players walk out on a Team that is clearly continuing to promote Racism in New Zealand Rugby.

In fairness i'm not entirely sure Mils and Donnelly don't qualify for the New Zealand Maori Rugby Team but that doesn't mean there aren't players that this happens too.

Dumb topic. It's a rugby team which is based on pride in a heritage and culture. Seeing as Mils was born in Samoan, and i don't think Donnely has any maori heritage, it would be silly for them to join. The idea of a Maori team, based only on the idea of a recognition of Maori heritage and culture, is not wrong. There are things in NZ which are racist, a Maori Party, Maori seats in parlement etc, as they essentially only look after a specific portion of the population despite Maori people already being proportionally represented. It means that Maori people should essentially have "more of a say" or "more of a vote", which is wrong.
But the NZ Maori team is a proud part of NZ history, it's not a New Zealand A team just to stick anyone.

Obviously the Junior All Blacks should be kept, however celebrating 100 years seems like a fair enough reason to put a small hault to the normal Jr All Blacks and have a few tests for the NZ Maori.

I can see how you think it is a racist selected team, however the idea isn't supposed to be taken as an exclusion of white players, it's only to allow some what of a token team to be set aside for tradition and culture. It doesn't disadvantage anyone else, and I know many Maori people who are quite proud of their heritage and like to see them represented in sport.

Yes, a 'white' team would be seen as racist in New Zealand, however I'm sure if a bunch of people were perhaps proud of their spanish ancestory, an NZ Spanish team could be set up, or people who were proud of their English ancestory, an NZ English team could be set up, based on the conditions you had to have proof your part English, and that the motive was to show pride in your heritage and not meerly to exclude a race, which is what your attitude seems to be.

 

[eot345]

any one who thinks th the NZ maori team is racist is ignorant and frankly highly insulting i wish people would think before they post it's just annoying

 

[admartian]

What do you guys mean by 'race'? Skin colour? If so, there are plenty of 'white' people in the NZ Maori team. Heck, Cullen played for them (and many more of fair complexion after, as well)!
Now, that we've eliminated that, the issue is heritage. Because scientifically (and somewhat logically) there is no such thing as 'race' (within humans). We have variations due to being in different environments for thousands of years; which is, in short, determined by the amount of sunlight, melanin, and protein synthesis.

So if is heritage, then what is the problem? Is this issue raised purely because it is marginalizing and harmful to the detriment of the majority of NZ rugby players? Even if it is for that reason, is it really harmful? I don't think so. Sure, several players miss out on being able to train/prepare for the ABs. We have (had) other teams for this, as mentioned - the Juniour ABs, NZ A. But it isn't financially viable for the NZRU to run these programs concurrently.

The issue, here, is essentially money.


Firstly, racism is simply discrimination based on race - but since there really isn't such a thing as race, it boils down to it being based on (historical) heritage and culture. There are many things which discriminate things/people from being somewhere or doing something. Many of them are innocuous or harmless enough. I mean, would anyone really get upset they can't get into the female changing rooms? :lol:

Therefore, we have to treat this term 'racism' as something that picks on heritage/patrilineal origins. Is that really so bad? Would it be bad that people can't get in to, say, a Chinese-NZ rugby team, comprised of those which are descended from the early gold miners? It's really the same thing.

Yes to an extent it's 'racist', but so many things are - like I shouldn't be able to play for the Indian cricket team because I'm not Indian - I don't hold claim to that country in any way shape or form. Much like many in NZ do not share the heritage of the first Maori who arrived here, and having been descended from those people. All this team is doing, is saying if you're not by any way, connected to that past, you can't play. It is not saying that these people are superior/better than others, it's simply grouping each other.

It's exclusionary, sure, which i suppose is where the issue lies. But it isn't detrimental to (NZ) society.


Put it this way, if you're a kiwi on his OE in the UK, would it be 'racist' to form an indoor football team, explicitly only of NZers?

 

[SelimNiai]

Now bear with me as i try to explain this. Graham Henry has complained that there is no level of rugby for Donnelly to gain Test match fitness outside the Allblacks. This of course isn't true. NZ Maori play England (Test playing nation obviously) in New Zealand on Wednesday. It is in fact the Perfect game for Mils and Donnelly to prove/ gain match fitness. Perfect except for the fact that some players can't play for the NZ Maori not because they aren't good enough obviously but because they weren't born to the right parents. The continuation of the 'unique' ( the only racially selected rugby union team in the world) NZ Maori team is not only morally wrong, it is also negatively affecting prospective ABs ( E.g Alby Mathewson) and Current ABs (Mils and Donnelly).

In light of Timana Tahu's brave stance against Racism in League, Maybe its time a few NZ Maori players walk out on a Team that is clearly continuing to promote Racism in New Zealand Rugby.

In fairness i'm not entirely sure Mils and Donnelly don't qualify for the New Zealand Maori Rugby Team but that doesn't mean there aren't players that this happens too.

So you are saying a team is racist for not picking players of that particular "race". You can't "qualify to be eligible for Maori, you are just born with it.

What a stupid, ill-informed not to mention WUM thread.

 

[Thingimubob]

Didn't South Africa call the NZ Maori a 'racist team' when they cancelled the match they were gonna have against the Maori as a warm up before the Lions tour? I remember seeing that on the BBC website and thinking how stupid it was to cancel what would have been a good match for a reason that doesn't really and truly make sense.
Another thing, didn't Paul ***o play for the New Zealand Maori? Always wondered how a very pale ginger guy counts as Maori

 

[TyphoonsRugby]

The rules to qualify for the NZ Maori are u have to be 1/16th Maori iirc, so many of those white guys who've played for the Maori do have Maori in their blood. As for the 'racism' many players are honoured to wear the Maori jersey and I know that most hold it in high regard.

 

[Iron Mike]

Does this mean that if New Zealand lose the tri-nations and the world cup, we can blame the Maori team then and ''racism''? I mean, it is only fair as Savage is blaming the quota system, same ****.

I think there is a point to this though, as Riki Flutey proved a non British born could make the Lions. If you could, play for the Maori, if you adopted their culture, then that would be great, but I do see a bit of racism in this, I must say. It is a sticky issue, but if someone really wanted to play for the Maori, then I think they should, especially as there is no Jr All Blacks this year.

Yeah it is also painful not to go into those female changing rooms, that is outrageous and I am taking this to parliament!

 

[admartian]

Does this mean that if New Zealand lose the tri-nations and the world cup, we can blame the Maori team then and ''racism''? I mean, it is only fair as Savage is blaming the quota system, same ****.

Well what's Australia's excuse then? :lol:

If only Andrew Johns were involved in Union. Then they'd have one!

 

[Iron Mike]

Well what's Australia's excuse then? :lol:

If only Andrew Johns were involved in Union. Then they'd have one!

Maybe having a New Zealand coach, as they don't speak the same language

 

[admartian]

Maybe having a New Zealand coach, as they don't speak the same language

That, and a kiwi running the backs, not to mention one as the last line of defence. :lol:

 

[ranger]

Alright guys, I think there is a bit of miscommunication here. There are a few points that need clearing up;

-The NZ "A" team (The JABs) have not been "tossed on the scrap heap" as the OP suggests. The NZRU have made the decision that they can only fund one team and they chose the JABS. The only reason that the Maori are playing this year is that this year signifies the 100th anniversary of the Maori team. They made an exception to include them this year because of this, normally the Maori don't have the funds to exist.

-You don't need to be "1/16th Maori" or whatever people seem to think to qualify for the NZ Maori team. All you need is to identify as Maori. You need to be able to say "that is my tribe, this is where i come from etc" that is it, there is no minimum concenration of blood required. You could be half Maori but not identify as one, if you never really cared about your heritage and just wanted to play for the rugby team to further your rugby aspirations, then you wouldn't be allowed to play. Equally, if you were pakeha, but identified as maori, learned the language and helped out in the Maori community to such an extent that a Marae accepted you as one of their own, then you could play for them. Look at Liam Messam, hes adopted. He could be Nuiean for all he knows but he has grown up learning about Maori culture and accepting that that is who he is his whole life to such an extent that he captains them, hes fluent in the language.

-THE NEW ZEALAND MAORI RUGBY TEAM IS ABOUT MORE THAN JUST RUGBY. While i dont think there is any malice in the OP, i do think there is a ridiculous level of ignorance that is annoying enough that i felt Jake Hekes insults were warranted. They claim that the Maori team is racist and that players should walk out of it (?!) because a couple of players dont have a couple extra opportunites to push for All Blacks status. While i admit that its unlucky for the likes of Alby Matthewson, its not enough to destroy the Maori team because of it, why? because THERE IS MORE TO LIFE THAN RUGBY. The NZ Maori team act as role models for young maori, they are a figure head for the community to look up to. In tribal areas like Ngati Porou they value the Maori as heros going back generations. The history of the Maori All Blacks is taught in the Te Reo Maori curriculum in secondary schools man! You are treating the Maori team like it is simply a vehicle to show what skills you have to Graham Henry, that is pure ignorance.

-It is all well and good to argue for equality, BUT, there needs to be a level of "inequality" (for want of a better word) in order to preserve other cultures. What you seem to forget is that New Zealand essentially a slightly modified european country. The legal system is based on the english westminster, we speak english, the system of education is a western one, the social expectations and interactions are all western. Its fine to say "treat everyone equally" but right from the outset they aren't. If everyone is treated the same, then in effect everyone is being treated in a western or european way. That, my freinds, is assimilation.
The NZ Maori is a blatent vehicle for Maori only to celebrate the Maori culture. You need these Maori only vehicles so that they can be seperate as Maori sometimes and make sure that the entire culture isn't eaten up and destroyed. People can argue things like there aren't white only teams, but they have no need to preserve their culture becuase the everyday world is their culture!

-As for NZ "A" being the better choice over NZ Maori, i think that from a purely Rugby orientated standpoint it makes sense, but wider than that it doesn't really. Where are the people that support the NZ A as their main team? Where are the school children learning the history of and looking up to the NZ A as role models? When it comes down to it, the NZ A is just a stepping stone for the players, they dont give a **** about the team, win or lose doesn't matter its all about making yourself look good. The NZ Maori players have pride in the team and its history, its a team that actually means something. Thats the difference for me.

At the end of the day, Alby Matthewson gets two less games to push his All Blacks claims than Smylie does. Boo fcukin' hoo, he had all Super 14 and has the upcoming NPC to show what hes got. The value of the team outweighs the negitives.

 

[nickdnz]

Alright guys, I think there is a bit of miscommunication here. There are a few points that need clearing up;

-The NZ "A" team (The JABs) have not been "tossed on the scrap heap" as the OP suggests. The NZRU have made the decision that they can only fund one team and they chose the JABS. The only reason that the Maori are playing this year is that this year signifies the 100th anniversary of the Maori team. They made an exception to include them this year because of this, normally the Maori don't have the funds to exist.

-You don't need to be "1/16th Maori" or whatever people seem to think to qualify for the NZ Maori team. All you need is to identify as Maori. You need to be able to say "that is my tribe, this is where i come from etc" that is it, there is no minimum concenration of blood required. You could be half Maori but not identify as one, if you never really cared about your heritage and just wanted to play for the rugby team to further your rugby aspirations, then you wouldn't be allowed to play. Equally, if you were pakeha, but identified as maori, learned the language and helped out in the Maori community to such an extent that a Marae accepted you as one of their own, then you could play for them. Look at Liam Messam, hes adopted. He could be Nuiean for all he knows but he has grown up learning about Maori culture and accepting that that is who he is his whole life to such an extent that he captains them, hes fluent in the language.

-THE NEW ZEALAND MAORI RUGBY TEAM IS ABOUT MORE THAN JUST RUGBY. While i dont think there is any malice in the OP, i do think there is a ridiculous level of ignorance that is annoying enough that i felt Jake Hekes insults were warranted. They claim that the Maori team is racist and that players should walk out of it (?!) because a couple of players dont have a couple extra opportunites to push for All Blacks status. While i admit that its unlucky for the likes of Alby Matthewson, its not enough to destroy the Maori team because of it, why? because THERE IS MORE TO LIFE THAN RUGBY. The NZ Maori team act as role models for young maori, they are a figure head for the community to look up to. In tribal areas like Ngati Porou they value the Maori as heros going back generations. The history of the Maori All Blacks is taught in the Te Reo Maori curriculum in secondary schools man! You are treating the Maori team like it is simply a vehicle to show what skills you have to Graham Henry, that is pure ignorance.

-It is all well and good to argue for equality, BUT, there needs to be a level of "inequality" (for want of a better word) in order to preserve other cultures. What you seem to forget is that New Zealand essentially a slightly modified european country. The legal system is based on the english westminster, we speak english, the system of education is a western one, the social expectations and interactions are all western. Its fine to say "treat everyone equally" but right from the outset they aren't. If everyone is treated the same, then in effect everyone is being treated in a western or european way. That, my freinds, is assimilation.
The NZ Maori is a blatent vehicle for Maori only to celebrate the Maori culture. You need these Maori only vehicles so that they can be seperate as Maori sometimes and make sure that the entire culture isn't eaten up and destroyed. People can argue things like there aren't white only teams, but they have no need to preserve their culture becuase the everyday world is their culture!

-As for NZ "A" being the better choice over NZ Maori, i think that from a purely Rugby orientated standpoint it makes sense, but wider than that it doesn't really. Where are the people that support the NZ A as their main team? Where are the school children learning the history of and looking up to the NZ A as role models? When it comes down to it, the NZ A is just a stepping stone for the players, they dont give a **** about the team, win or lose doesn't matter its all about making yourself look good. The NZ Maori players have pride in the team and its history, its a team that actually means something. Thats the difference for me.

At the end of the day, Alby Matthewson gets two less games to push his All Blacks claims than Smylie does. Boo fcukin' hoo, he had all Super 14 and has the upcoming NPC to show what hes got. The value of the team outweighs the negitives.

Prove it...

 

[wjd23104]

Alright guys, I think there is a bit of miscommunication here. There are a few points that need clearing up;

-The NZ "A" team (The JABs) have not been "tossed on the scrap heap" as the OP suggests. The NZRU have made the decision that they can only fund one team and they chose the JABS. The only reason that the Maori are playing this year is that this year signifies the 100th anniversary of the Maori team. They made an exception to include them this year because of this, normally the Maori don't have the funds to exist.

-You don't need to be "1/16th Maori" or whatever people seem to think to qualify for the NZ Maori team. All you need is to identify as Maori. You need to be able to say "that is my tribe, this is where i come from etc" that is it, there is no minimum concenration of blood required. You could be half Maori but not identify as one, if you never really cared about your heritage and just wanted to play for the rugby team to further your rugby aspirations, then you wouldn't be allowed to play. Equally, if you were pakeha, but identified as maori, learned the language and helped out in the Maori community to such an extent that a Marae accepted you as one of their own, then you could play for them. Look at Liam Messam, hes adopted. He could be Nuiean for all he knows but he has grown up learning about Maori culture and accepting that that is who he is his whole life to such an extent that he captains them, hes fluent in the language.

-THE NEW ZEALAND MAORI RUGBY TEAM IS ABOUT MORE THAN JUST RUGBY. While i dont think there is any malice in the OP, i do think there is a ridiculous level of ignorance that is annoying enough that i felt Jake Hekes insults were warranted. They claim that the Maori team is racist and that players should walk out of it (?!) because a couple of players dont have a couple extra opportunites to push for All Blacks status. While i admit that its unlucky for the likes of Alby Matthewson, its not enough to destroy the Maori team because of it, why? because THERE IS MORE TO LIFE THAN RUGBY. The NZ Maori team act as role models for young maori, they are a figure head for the community to look up to. In tribal areas like Ngati Porou they value the Maori as heros going back generations. The history of the Maori All Blacks is taught in the Te Reo Maori curriculum in secondary schools man! You are treating the Maori team like it is simply a vehicle to show what skills you have to Graham Henry, that is pure ignorance.

-It is all well and good to argue for equality, BUT, there needs to be a level of "inequality" (for want of a better word) in order to preserve other cultures. What you seem to forget is that New Zealand essentially a slightly modified european country. The legal system is based on the english westminster, we speak english, the system of education is a western one, the social expectations and interactions are all western. Its fine to say "treat everyone equally" but right from the outset they aren't. If everyone is treated the same, then in effect everyone is being treated in a western or european way. That, my freinds, is assimilation.
The NZ Maori is a blatent vehicle for Maori only to celebrate the Maori culture. You need these Maori only vehicles so that they can be seperate as Maori sometimes and make sure that the entire culture isn't eaten up and destroyed. People can argue things like there aren't white only teams, but they have no need to preserve their culture becuase the everyday world is their culture!

-As for NZ "A" being the better choice over NZ Maori, i think that from a purely Rugby orientated standpoint it makes sense, but wider than that it doesn't really. Where are the people that support the NZ A as their main team? Where are the school children learning the history of and looking up to the NZ A as role models? When it comes down to it, the NZ A is just a stepping stone for the players, they dont give a **** about the team, win or lose doesn't matter its all about making yourself look good. The NZ Maori players have pride in the team and its history, its a team that actually means something. Thats the difference for me.

At the end of the day, Alby Matthewson gets two less games to push his All Blacks claims than Smylie does. Boo fcukin' hoo, he had all Super 14 and has the upcoming NPC to show what hes got. The value of the team outweighs the negitives.

If the NZ Maori team is about more than rugby why can't someone who doesn't have Maori blood play for them? The NZRU clearly states on its website ( and i quote this in a previous post) that they check their genealogy. What evidence do you have that you don't have to be 1/16 Maori ?

 

[ranger]

If the NZ Maori team is about more than rugby why can't someone who doesn't have Maori blood play for them? The NZRU clearly states on its website ( and i quote this in a previous post) that they check their genealogy. What evidence do you have that you don't have to be 1/16 Maori ?

Are you serious?.. because it is about MAORI CULTURE. putting non maori in the team kind of defeats this point dont you think? That is actually quite a stupid statement when you think about it. I have given the reasons why it is more than rugby and that is why non maori arent there.

Also, they check their genealogy, but that check is what i refered to before; being able to identify your Marae and identify as Maori.
How about this, what evidence do you have that it is 1/16th?

I have been involved in alot of Maori rugby, i just know that it isn't one 1/16th. There isn't a concrete line where they say "you're Maori, you're not" thats not how Maori roll. You either are maori and you know it or you aren't and you wouldn't dare claim you were. Theres no real reason to have a solid line..

Haha and Nick, it actually pained me to write that. Maybe there is more to life than rugby, but just not much more

 

[Seaton]

On a side note, SARU cancelled/ refused to organise a mtach between the Boks and the Moari last year before the Lions series, due to 'racial quotas' :huh:
So the OP is not alone in his/her racism claims, he/she is just in very bad company.

 

[Muzzy]

who cares whats the big deal its not like nz maori are a major team, they barely play any games a year and last year i don't think we even had a maori team, so whats the big fuss. we did have an NZ Barbarians team this year but i think they only played one game against the nz maori which they lost.

 

[Tooki]

The problem that we don't have the development leagues in Australia is because it's competing with NRL & AFL. NRL owns New South Wales & Queensland & AFL owns the other states, especially Victoria. Rugby is stuck in the middle & really only has a noticeable presence in NSW/Canberra & QLD. It's getting popular in Western Australia In NZ, it's Rugby/Rugby/Rugby & I imagine it's the same in South Africa with the Afrikaans.

I know with NRL their are a few sons of former greats coming through right now. Not so sure about Rugby, because I know before it went professional some of the best players went to NRL because it paid better. I think that it helps in their development because their born into Rugby & get the basic skills of their talented parents.

I think the SH is best, because I believe the Polynesians have the best pool for Rugby talent. Just look at the All-Blacks! Polynesians are starting to make a big impact in NRL & their are a noticeable amounts of American Samoans in the NFL. I don't have the numbers but an American Samoan is the most likely race to play in the NFL (based on proportions). Also, having top-tier competition down here makes everyone better, as well as being an icon of the countries.

 

[smartcooky]

In an ideal world, we would have The All Blacks, the Junior All Blacks (NZ 'A') and NZ Maori. But its not an ideal world.

If decisions were taken purely from a "rugby" standpoint (economics aside) then the Pacific Nations Championship could include the Junior All Blacks, Australia 'A' and the Argentine Jaguars, but the NZRU doesn't have the money, and nor do the ARU or the UAR. That is the real world!

 

[nickdnz]

In an ideal world, we would have The All Blacks, the Junior All Blacks (NZ 'A') and NZ Maori. But its not an ideal world.

If decisions were taken purely from a "rugby" standpoint (economics aside) then the Pacific Nations Championship could include the Junior All Blacks, Australia 'A' and the Argentine Jaguars, but the NZRU doesn't have the money, and nor do the ARU or the UAR. That is the real world!

It'd be interesting if say the NZ Maori played in the Pacific Nations, and the Jr All Blacks played in the Churchill Cup. Money would obviously be an issue though, and you could never really have an 'A' team, as players who weren't in the AB's would be diluted into two teams, meaning neither would be full strength.