2013 British and Irish Lions

[McTallshort]

He's had a hell of a lot more experience than Johnson did prior to South Africa. Pick presence, not experience.

As for guaranteed starter - there are none, there's some names a way ahead of the pack but even they can be hauled in, Robshaw's current form would not disgrace the test jersey and that's good enough for a captain.

Zed - We took five last time. Twelvetrees might be around Barritt now, but he has a higher ceiling imo so I'd take him and gamble. As for BOD's injury proneness - intensity of the tests means just about everyone looks vulnerable to not making all three.

Not really, by 1997 Johnson had been playing International rugby for 4 years including a test start for the Lions in New Zealand. Robshaw is more established as a captain than perhaps Johnson was but not as a player.

 

[Twebby]

My pick for the backline:

9 Youngs (ENG)
10 Farrell (ENG)
11 North (WAL)
12 Roberts (WAL)
13 O'Driscoll (IRE)
14 Maitland (SCO)
15 Halfpenny (WAL)

20 Care (ENG)
21 Sexton (IRE)
22 Kearney (IRE)

With other real options being Hogg, Visser, Zebo, Tuilagi, Flood, Wilkinson, at least to me.

Maitland? No way. Only played one international game and while he looks a decent player there are much better options out there.

He might be a nob but nobody in NH rugby runs better support lines than Chris Ashton and he is a natural try scorer. Cuthbert also has more experience and personally I'd also take Tim Visser ahead of Maitland.

 

[Peat]

Not really, by 1997 Johnson had been playing International rugby for 4 years including a test start for the Lions in New Zealand. Robshaw is more established as a captain than perhaps Johnson was but not as a player.

I was talking about as a captain - should have made that clear. Correct me if wrong, but Johnson wasn't even a regular club captain at that time.

I sometimes think we make far too big a thing of experience - guilty as anyone else I guess, but it's only one part of what makes a rugby player, and not the most important one.

 

[McTallshort]

No he wasnt, he had played a few games as Captain but not many. It always makes me laugh when the anti Johnson brigade bang on that he was a limited player but a great leader. They forget he had to earn the right to be captain.

 

[Crapspray]

Just who is keeping Robshaw away from the 7 shirt? Kelly Brown was outplayed by him, and spends his club days on the blindside. He won man of the match against Ireland and O'Brien, so who is left? Warburton's form has collapsed and only Tipuric could be claimed as a better fetcher. Perhaps Gatland might select Armitage or move Tom Wood across, but I think all are highly unlikely. Who, on a player front, will do better?

As a leader I certainly think he's the eminent captain of the home nations at the moment. Heaslip disappeared last week, Brown is behind as a player and has less experience as a captain. Warburton isn't even starting. Only some of the obligatory nostalgia players could pip him to it; BOD, Wilkinson, etc. That is, if they're not crocked by the first test and survive the series.

 

[dullonien]

Just who is keeping Robshaw away from the 7 shirt? Kelly Brown was outplayed by him, and spends his club days on the blindside. He won man of the match against Ireland and O'Brien, so who is left? Warburton's form has collapsed and only Tipuric could be claimed as a better fetcher. Perhaps Gatland might select Armitage or move Tom Wood across, but I think all are highly unlikely. Who, on a player front, will do better?

As a leader I certainly think he's the eminent captain of the home nations at the moment. Heaslip disappeared last week, Brown is behind as a player and has less experience as a captain. Warburton isn't even starting. Only some of the obligatory nostalgia players could pip him to it; BOD, Wilkinson, etc. That is, if they're not crocked by the first test and survive the series.

Tipuric. As I've said before, easily the best genuine 7 available at present, and Gatland has already stated that he prefer's a genuine 7. It's not just for fetching, it's for all the other aspect of a game that a traditional 7 does, especially link-play. This could be decisive down under, where chances will need to be taken, and the game is likely to be played at a furious pace.

No matter what number Robshaw wears on his back, his skill-set is better suited to blindside, and that's the game he plays 90% of the time. I see Robshaw as a destructive type player, whereas Tipuric is a constructive player, and that's the balance you want on your flanks. I think Gatland will see Robshaw as a 6, and personally he's the front-runner in that position at the moment.

 

[Joseph14]

Tipuric is 'easily' the best genuine 7 available? I assume this means French based players are completely ruled out then?

Some would say Armitage is the best available 7 for the Lions.

 

[dullonien]

Tipuric is 'easily' the best genuine 7 available? I assume this means French based players are completely ruled out then?

Some would say Armitage is the best available 7 for the Lions.

Not seen enough of Armitage and tbh I don't think a lot of the people who say he's the best have either. There's little doubt that he's playing well, but so has Tipuric in pretty much every game since breaking through at the Ospreys. Watching him play week in week out, he's rarely had a bad game, and is often one of the most influential players for the Ospreys. This isn't just based off a few months of form either, he's been great for 2+ years. People site Tips lack of international game time as a negative, but he's getting game time now, whereas Armitage isn't, and won't get any before the tour. I highly doubt Armitage will tour.

 

[McTallshort]

Tipuric. As I've said before, easily the best genuine 7 available at present, and Gatland has already stated that he prefer's a genuine 7. It's not just for fetching, it's for all the other aspect of a game that a traditional 7 does, especially link-play. This could be decisive down under, where chances will need to be taken, and the game is likely to be played at a furious pace.

No matter what number Robshaw wears on his back, his skill-set is better suited to blindside, and that's the game he plays 90% of the time. I think Gatland will see Robshaw as a 6, and personally he's the front-runner in that position at the moment.

Dont want to start a row with this but.....How many times have Wales lost to Australia in the last year while using a genuine openside (Sam Warburton)? France beat them heavily without one, so did Ireland in the World cup and England did home and away all without what people would term a genuine 7. I am not convinced of this "have to have a genuine 7" arguement or that Robshaw is not one. I think we could pick a number of combinations in the back row and still be able to beat the Aussies that said I am a big fan of Tipuric and would love to see him in the test team.

 

[dullonien]

Dont want to start a row with this but.....How many times have Wales lost to Australia in the last year while using a genuine openside (Sam Warburton)? France beat them heavily without one, so did Ireland in the World cup and England did home and away all without what people would term a genuine 7. I am not convinced of this "have to have a genuine 7" arguement or that Robshaw is not one. I think we could pick a number of combinations in the back row and still be able to beat the Aussies that said I am a big fan of Tipuric and would love to see him in the test team.

Suppose it's personal preference, and one in which Gatland has already voiced his his opinions about. Warburton hasn't been on form in any of those games either, and missed the WC 3rd place game. Yes you can win without a genuine 7, but I still think a team functions better with a balanced backrow that included a genuine 7. Look at Wales in the WC, or NZ, it just adds something a little extra. It's not as if Tipuric is poor at other aspects of the game, his work-rate is phenomenal, he tackles as much as any backrower, and he's a genuine lineout option.

I do see your point though, and I will also be happy with any combination available.

 

[McTallshort]

I suppose it does depend on how you want to play, Ireland dont play a genuine 7 but they base a large part of their game on the big ball carrying openside that holds attacking players up in the tackle and turning them over, the French and English seem to swap round the back row, South Africa cannot even get the numbers right and Scotland have a proper 7 in Rennie but dont always use him. New Zealand put lots of faith in a genuine openside but then not everyone has an openside like they have.....

 

[Peat]

I do like seeing a classical openside - genuine 7 is a crap term - and I don't think there should be any argument that Robshaw doesn't perform the role of the classic openside as a rule; he doesn't spend enough time on the ball runner's shoulder. If I'm honest, I'm not sure Warburton really does that enough for me; Tipuric or Rennie (when not missing tackles) are far more my absolute favourite type of 7.

Either could start ahead of Robshaw at 7 - assuming Rennie regains fitness, although same could happen for Warburton - and, frankly, writing off SOB because of the MotM award in one game is a little silly. Nothing to stop Gatland from reaching into the HEC form book and taking Henry either.

 

[Thingimubob]

Personally I'd love to see Robshaw and Tipuric starting together, big fan of both players and both have simply outstanding workrates. We've been harping on in Wales about starting two out and out 7s together for bloody ages, and while Robshaw isn't really seen as an out and out 7 (personally I see him as a 6.5 - and a bloody good one at that) I reckon it'd be damn effective. However a lot of this is still to be decided with Ferris, Lydiate (before injury I'd have started one of these two at 6) and Croft yet to come back from injury.

Tallshort - I do get your point about us losing to the Aussies with Warburton, however as dull said, Warburton was woefully out of form and match time in the tour down under - still baffles me why they chose not to play him against the Barbarians when he hadn't played a single minute of rugby since the 6 Nations, and he still hadn't quite got to his best when the AI's rolled around. If I remember correctly, there were a lot of calls for Tipuric to start pretty much all of those games.

 

[Peat]

I'd be pretty happy with Tipuric/Robshaw, but you'd need a real smashmouth carrier at 8.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Like Big Benny M?

Sorted.

 

[dullonien]

Like Big Benny M?

Sorted.

And the coach for the 2017 Lions is........ TRF.

 

[Peat]

Like Big Benny M?

Sorted.

Yeah. Faletau or SOB would do it as well.

The Olyy-Peat dreamticket for the next Lions starts here.

 

[McTallshort]

Umm still fancy Ryan Jones at 8.....

 

[Peat]

Umm still fancy Ryan Jones at 8.....

Not every 8's meant to be as slow as Jordan Crane you know!

 

[dullonien]

Yeah. Faletau or SOB would do it as well.

How much has he played at 8? What's his ball control like at the back of the scrum? I've seen other flankers converted to 8, and their ball control at scrum time has been appalling, namely Jon Thomas and Rob McCusker. As we'd hope to be on top in the scrum, it's important to have that control at the back, so we can take full advantage.

Umm still fancy Ryan Jones at 8.....

His game no longer suites 8 imo. He's no longer explosive enough with his ball carrying.