2013 British and Irish Lions

[Draggs]

Might be controversial, but I never saw Gray as a Lion to begin with.

Somewhat big blow for Sale though.

He really hasn't hit great form this season.

 

[munstermuffin]

I never did either for even when Gray was on form all the things he were doing well were in open loose play and I think he's a poor player in the tight.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Croft and Gray are in the same boat, people see rangy forwards with a hint of pace and **** the bed, Croft was always much better than Gray though imo.


Jesse Mogg from the Brumbies looks like he's pretty much nailed a place in the Wallaby 23 already. Dude is playing out of his skin.

 

[j'nuh]

Anyone else think Heaslip put a lot of credit back on his side?

A stat came up somewhere in the second half of the French match that he made 10 meters in 7 carries. I prefer 8s which can carry their hearts out (Picamoles, Morgan, Parisse, Beattie). Faletau is a better carrier, and would be a better option if we went for a "jack of all trades 8".

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Might be controversial, but I never saw Gray as a Lion to begin with.

Somewhat big blow for Sale though.

Hardly - With Ostrikov back playing tomorrow I wouldn't have him in the 23.
Literally every other lock of ours has played much better than he has. Even Gaskell.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

A stat came up somewhere in the second half of the French match that he made 10 meters in 7 carries. I prefer 8s which can carry their hearts out (Picamoles, Morgan, Parisse, Beattie). Faletau is a better carrier, and would be a better option if we went for a "jack of all trades 8".

I wouldn't care if we had Robshaw, O'Brien, Ferris, Wood, Lydiate etc... in the back row, Faletau was quite poor today and he is suspect in defence, Heaslip tacles like a demon does good work in the rucks and line outs and is very good at the back of the scrum granted he is playing like he did today or does for Leinster I'd want him, Faletau can run but he doesn't offer much else. Beattie is Heaslip's biggest competition in my opinion.

 

[Draggs]

Anyone else think Heaslip put a lot of credit back on his side?

No.

 

[munstermuffin]

A stat came up somewhere in the second half of the French match that he made 10 meters in 7 carries. I prefer 8s which can carry their hearts out (Picamoles, Morgan, Parisse, Beattie). Faletau is a better carrier, and would be a better option if we went for a "jack of all trades 8".

Today was Heaslip though in tight and well doing superb work in defense and it was a French team that were good at defending and had super fast defensive line bordering offside at times. He wasn't out wide shying away today instead Heaslip stayed tight and wasdogged as a captain.

And Olyy I agree Sale have better options, as I said Gray looked great galloping off like a donkey with ball when on form but he is still but he still poor scrummaging, average at lineout and blown away to easy at breakdown. And I think English, Irish and Welsh are offering too many better alternatives to even consider him as a injury reserve.

 

[j'nuh]

ESPNscrum stats today:
Faletau made 8 tackles, missed none. Heaslip made 5 tackles, missed 2.
Faletau made 22 meters in 10 carries, Heaslip made 11 in 8.
Faletau made a turnover, Heaslip didn't.
However, Faletau gave away 2 penalties and Heaslip didn't give any.

Throughout the tournament:
Faletau has made 40 tackles, missed 1. Heaslip has made 35 tackles, missed 5.
Faletau has made 106 meters in 49 carries. Heaslip has made 38 meters in 32 carries.
Faletau has made 2 turnovers to Heaslip's 3.
Faletau has given away 2 penalties. Heaslip has given away 5.

Overall I prefer Faletau's stats.

FWIW, in 45 minutes of rugby, Ben Morgan made 54 meters in 8 carries, 2 clean breaks, 5 defenders beaten and 2 offloads. Heaslip has 3 defenders beaten, no clean breaks, no offloads in 4 matches. Faletau has 1 clean break, 4 defenders beaten and 1 offload.

EDIT: Beattie's stats for comparison:
28 tackles, 2 missed.
114 meters in 33 carries.
4 turnovers.
5 penalties given away.
1 clean break, 5 defenders beaten, 1 offload.

Morgan is the best "ball-in-hand" 8, Faletau is the best "third flanker" 8. Shame that Morgan may not have the time to prove himself now though.

 

[big ginger 8]

No.

Sorry should have left you out of that. As few Irish as possible right?

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Overall I prefer Faletau's stats.

I agree - however stats don't tell the whole story.
I'd take Beattie, Heaslip and (if he gets fit sharpish) Morgan over Faletau.

 

[big ginger 8]

ESPNscrum stats today:
Faletau made 8 tackles, missed none. Heaslip made 5 tackles, missed 2.
Faletau made 22 meters in 10 carries, Heaslip made 11 in 8.
Faletau made a turnover, Heaslip didn't.
However, Faletau gave away 2 penalties and Heaslip didn't give any.

Throughout the tournament:
Faletau has made 40 tackles, missed 1. Heaslip has made 35 tackles, missed 5.
Faletau has made 106 meters in 49 carries. Heaslip has made 38 meters in 32 carries.
Faletau has made 2 turnovers to Heaslip's 3.
Faletau has given away 2 penalties. Heaslip has given away 5.

Overall I prefer Faletau's stats.

FWIW, in 45 minutes of rugby, Ben Morgan made 54 meters in 8 carries, 2 clean breaks, 5 defenders beaten and 2 offloads. Heaslip has 3 defenders beaten, no clean breaks, no offloads in 4 matches. Faletau has 1 clean break, 4 defenders beaten and 1 offload. It's a shame Morgan got injured because he's the best ball-in-hand 8 of the home nations, but might not get the chance to press a claim now.

Ah but those are ESPN stats. Hardly reliable. I've heard other stats where Heaslip has made the most tackles in the 6n. Also you're not taking into account the players roles in their respective teams and their teams tactics. Faletau plays in a backrow where he is far and away the best carrier therefore he carries often. He also gets a lot of his ball outside 10 and in wider channels. Heaslip is in a backrow with Sean O'Brien. With PO'M as well. Most of his carries are now pick and goes are off 9. The amount of work he does clearing out is ridculous and very efficient.

Stats aren't everything.

 

[dullonien]

I wouldn't care if we had Robshaw, O'Brien, Ferris, Wood, Lydiate etc... in the back row, Faletau was quite poor today and he is suspect in defence, Heaslip tacles like a demon does good work in the rucks and line outs and is very good at the back of the scrum granted he is playing like he did today or does for Leinster I'd want him, Faletau can run but he doesn't offer much else. Beattie is Heaslip's biggest competition in my opinion.

You seem to have Faletau confused with someone else. He's a very reliable tackler, rarely misses any. He also get's involved in plenty of rucks, and controls the ball well at the back of the scrum. If you want to criticise Faletau, you can question his vision which came to light last season when he failed to pass on a number of occasions. He doesn't carry as well as he did when he burst onto the scenes either, but he's still fairly successful in that regard.

I don't think Faletau is in top form, but he's in better form than Heaslip atm. Heaslip was a little better today compared to previous games, but he still wasn't great imo.

I agree - however stats don't tell the whole story.
I'd take Beattie, Heaslip and (if he gets fit sharpish) Morgan over Faletau.

But I'd suspect that you'd still say the same even if Faletau was playing out his skin. I am yet to understand your dislike of him.... He's been fairly consistent in his performances for Wales since his debut, even if he has made some mistakes along the way. He's also still one of the youngest 8's playing international rugby, so plenty of time to develop. If he played for anyone other than the Dragons he'd be getting more praise at club/regional level as well.

 

[Ospreylian]

Morgan is the best "ball-in-hand" 8, Faletau is the best "third flanker" 8. Shame that Morgan may not have the time to prove himself now though.

Faletau best defensive 8, Morgan best attacking 8....

Are you thinking what I'm thinking? Let's replicate the genetic modification techniques we used to create the monster that is Ryan O'Driscoll to create... Tobeny Morgaletau. Yes.

 

[TRF_Cymro]

What holds Faletau back is his ability to pass / awareness of men outside of him. Today he did it and has done it regularly in the past. I am pretty 100% sure had Toby passed the ball out there was an overlap.

Personally I think Morgan is ahead of him in the Lions steak as is Beattie. Be interesting to see how many 8s Gatland / Rowntree will want to take.

 

[j'nuh]

Stats might not be everything, but they can be very suggestive. Other than to call the stats wrong, there's no way round the fact that Faletau's tackling has been better for example.

Warburton is suddenly back to being a Lions contender btw. Gave performance of the tournament imo today. If he can back it up against England next week, and continue back into the season with it, then a Robshaw/Warburton combo is on the cards.

 

[ratsapprentice]

I'd take Faletau over Heaslip, not really followed either's form however.

Also Warburton showed enough today to be on the plane IMO, just by showing that he has been in bad form recently as opposed to his previous high being a blip.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

You seem to have Faletau confused with someone else. He's a very reliable tackler, rarely misses any. He also get's involved in plenty of rucks, and controls the ball well at the back of the scrum.

I don't think Faletau is in top form, but he's in better form than Heaslip atm. Heaslip was a little better today compared to previous games, but he still wasn't great imo.

It's hard enough to confuse the Tongan on the Welsh side with the rest of their players.

It's not his tackling that's the problem, it's his positioning, I regularly notice him in bad positioning in defence and making tackles that weren't his to make really. He very rarely hits rucks in attack, instead trying to get his hands on the ball, which won't be needed for the Lions who will have many more big ball carriers than Wales, I don't see him as a test player for the Lions and I think he has a fight on his hands to make the plane. It's Beattie vs Heaslip for 8 at the moment I think.

 

[big ginger 8]

Stats might not be everything, but they can be very suggestive. Other than to call the stats wrong, there's no way round the fact that Faletau's tackling has been better for example.

Warburton is suddenly back to being a Lions contender btw. Gave performance of the tournament imo today. If he can back it up against England next week, and continue back into the season with it, then a Robshaw/Warburton combo is on the cards.

I don't trust ESPN stats at all so I'd definitely call their reliability into question.

 

[dullonien]

It's hard enough to confuse the Tongan on the Welsh side with the rest of their players.

It's not his tackling that's the problem, it's his positioning, I regularly notice him in bad positioning in defence and making tackles that weren't his to make really. He very rarely hits rucks in attack, instead trying to get his hands on the ball, which won't be needed for the Lions who will have many more big ball carriers than Wales, I don't see him as a test player for the Lions and I think he has a fight on his hands to make the plane. It's Beattie vs Heaslip for 8 at the moment I think.

That makes no sense though. He's given a defensive job for Wales, and that's to defend quite wide, which he is comfortable in doing due to his pace (doesn't have issues keeping up with most backs). Considering Wales have had one of the best defences in the NH in recent times, and have once again returned to form in that regard, not conceding a try in 3 1/2 games, it seems to be working.

As for the ruck thing, that's what he does, he goes for the ball. Nothing wrong with that when there are other players there to hit rucks. Heaslip plays in a similar manner, hence why he often makes a decent amount of turnovers for Ireland. Cole does the same for England, which is very uncommon for a tighthead prop, doesn't make it wrong, or poor to do so, so long as the balance in the team is right.

Edit. sorry missed the 'in attack' part. Again, it's difficult to judge without knowing his role in the team. He's one of our main wide ball carrying forwards, so his job might well be to offer a ball carrying presence in those situations. Tbh, I've never really questioned his workrate, as it's up there with the best. As Cymro has once again pointed out, it's his passing/vision that let's him down.