2014 Junior World Championship - June 2 to 20

[profitius]

Decent effort from Ireland. The tank was empty after half time but they fought on.

NZ were very clinical but Irelands defence was porous once again.

Next year these teams will meet again. 7 of the starting side will be back for Ireland bit more luck with injuries the pack should be stronger. Ruddock has to start using the squad. I doubt he will.

 

[munstermuffin]

Decent effort from Ireland. The tank was empty after half time but they fought on.

NZ were very clinical but Irelands defence was porous once again.

Next year these teams will meet again. 7 of the starting side will be back for Ireland bit more luck with injuries the pack should be stronger. Ruddock has to start using the squad. I doubt he will.

In fairness we were out of our depth but a great JRWC in which all can be proud

 

[Rumpi]

In fairness we were out of our depth but a great JRWC in which all can be proud

We did okay, can't fault the lads for effort but in reality we beat wales & Fiji but lost to France, England & New Zealand. Not a vintage u20 team.

 

[munstermuffin]

We did okay, can't fault the lads for effort but in reality we beat wales & Fiji but lost to France, England & New Zealand. Not a vintage u20 team.

But played superb rugby and could've beaten France. At this age there is more importance in performing well than result

 

[Darwin]

Just a few thoughts on the Irish match.

First half good, second half not so much. However there were a lot of good signs especially considering the amount of u19's. If our pack can have the necessary physicality next year we should be a real threat. Hopefully the players today learn a lesson from NZ in being clinical. Also the Mike Ruddock realises a big reason for doing well in the first half was the freshness of the players and that we can't keep essentially the same team throughout a tournament with few changes.

This is the first time I've seen this Irish side in the tournament, and I agree there were certainly some good signs. The Irish scrum completely dominated the NZ pack (though to be fair that isn't much of a challenge), and I thought both props looked pretty handy around the park. It was some of the backs though that really impressed me. Ringrose looked very classy at centre (and strong defender), while both Gaffney and Kelleher looked very elusive outside (Kelleher in particular). I understand Gaffney and Ringrose are available again next year.

Overall it was a very mixed tournament for the NZ side. There were quite a few moments of brilliance, though these were overshadowed in some ways by numerous moments of stupidity. The forwards struggled most match (particularity at the scrum), which is a major concern.

The pick of the forwards for me were Tucker, Harris, and Sanders. Tucker needs to work on his discipline but he is a very strong ball runner (and a good lineout option). Both Harris and Sanders may need to add a few kgs but they had big work-rates, where strong on defense, and looked pretty handy with ball in hand. Unfortunately none of these standouts will be available next year. I was pretty disappointed in Peni - he is massive and powerful but his work-rate is poor, and he takes a long time to get up to speed. Kolomatangi, Cridge, and Moli (of our starters) are available again next year.

There were plenty of strong performances in our backline. Drummond probably did ok at halfback given the poor ball he consistently received. Hickey struggled at 10, and I do feel his injury was actually a bonus for NZ. Mo'unga looked a lot better at 10. He is an excellent ball runner, and showed some quite good composure at times too. Our midfield wasn't quite as impressive as I had hoped. The were all solid, but none really stood-out in my opinion. Faiane and Lienert-Brown will be back next season though, so will only be better for the experience.

Tevita Li was brilliant. In space he is almost unstoppable, as he seems to be able to change direction at full pace, and is incredibly powerful. Tavae-Aso didn't get as many chances but impressed too. McKenzie does need to bulk up a lot but he is brilliant under the high ball and incredibly elusive with ball in hand. Li, Tavae-Aso, and McKenzie are all back next season, and should be even more dangerous then (though McKenzie may play 10).

 

[Groundhog]

That Tevita Li could be an Irish great one day , after Connacht inevitably sign him of course......

 

[Darwin]

That Tevita Li could be an Irish great one day , after Connacht inevitably sign him of course......

Too late - he has already played 7's for NZ. Capping our young players at 7's level is the only way to keep you pesky Irish from poaching them

 

[profitius]

We did okay, can't fault the lads for effort but in reality we beat wales & Fiji but lost to France, England & New Zealand. Not a vintage u20 team.

We'll have to wait and see how vintage it was. You're reading too much into results alone and as I said before, the year should be measured on how many players make the provinces and Ireland.

This is the first time I've seen this Irish side in the tournament, and I agree there were certainly some good signs. The Irish scrum completely dominated the NZ pack (though to be fair that isn't much of a challenge), and I thought both props looked pretty handy around the park. It was some of the backs though that really impressed me. Ringrose looked very classy at centre (and strong defender), while both Gaffney and Kelleher looked very elusive outside (Kelleher in particular). I understand Gaffney and Ringrose are available again next year.

An interesting fact is Ringrose didn't make the Leinster U18 squad last year. Himself, Gaffney, Brewer, McCarthy and Ross Byrne are the backs available again next year as well as squad member Dardis.

I thought NZ had the best attack in the tournament. Their props were not great but the pack was good in the loose.

 

[big ginger 8]

We'll have to wait and see how vintage it was. You're reading too much into results alone and as I said before, the year should be measured on how many players make the provinces and Ireland.



An interesting fact is Ringrose didn't make the Leinster U18 squad last year. Himself, Gaffney, Brewer, McCarthy and Ross Byrne are the backs available again next year as well as squad member Dardis.

I thought NZ had the best attack in the tournament. Their props were not great but the pack was good in the loose.

Ringrose was injured for most of 5th year which is why he didn't make Leinster. Still that cup run last years did wonders from him. His rate of improvement even from the 6N is really impressive.

 

[Rumpi]

We'll have to wait and see how vintage it was. You're reading too much into results alone and as I said before, the year should be measured on how many players make the provinces and Ireland.



An interesting fact is Ringrose didn't make the Leinster U18 squad last year. Himself, Gaffney, Brewer, McCarthy and Ross Byrne are the backs available again next year as well as squad member Dardis.

I thought NZ had the best attack in the tournament. Their props were not great but the pack was good in the loose.

Sure in terms of developing players only time will tell. However championships are there for winning and as a team we really only won 2 out of 5 matches, the wins coming against the two weakest teams we faced.

You can put whatever positive spin you want on it but the reality of our performance at this competition is that we lost heavily to the better teams. You seem to be determined to make excuses, by saying the English were bigger then our lads and that we tired in the second half v New Zealand. Excuses is all those are. you seem unwilling to give any praise to the teams that ran up huge scores against us. Now that the competition is you're spinning a pretty poor overall record as the results don't matter, this is all about developing players.

 

[profitius]

Sure in terms of developing players only time will tell. However championships are there for winning and as a team we really only won 2 out of 5 matches, the wins coming against the two weakest teams we faced.

You can put whatever positive spin you want on it but the reality of our performance at this competition is that we lost heavily to the better teams. You seem to be determined to make excuses, by saying the English were bigger then our lads and that we tired in the second half v New Zealand. Excuses is all those are. you seem unwilling to give any praise to the teams that ran up huge scores against us. Now that the competition is you're spinning a pretty poor overall record as the results don't matter, this is all about developing players.

You say excuses I say facts. Yes they were well beaten but how about we look at WHY they were well beaten. Theres a fairly clear explanation. In the Ireland squad theres about 6 players in provincial academies from this season (more of that squad will be joining academies for next season). NZ have players with super rugby experience. I'm not saying the Irish players are better or worse I'm just pointing out that different teams will be in different stages of development. And I'm not complaining about it because I think the system is working well in Ireland. Its not perfect but its getting better.

And I have praised the other teams. I backed England to win it at 3/1! I said NZ had the best attack and thought McKenzie should have been player of the tournament.

And as for spin. Spin is counterproductive. Why pretend everything is fine if its not? You're only fooling yourself as far as I'm concerned. I'm not a one eyed Munster or Ireland fan, in fact I'm more critical of them than I am of other teams.

Ringrose was injured for most of 5th year which is why he didn't make Leinster. Still that cup run last years did wonders from him. His rate of improvement even from the 6N is really impressive.

He has surprised me. He got dropped in the 6 nations and bounced back well. Very intelligent player. Next year Ireland should have a very strong backline.

 

[Rich Taff]

I think these tournaments (nearly) always have cycles, where one year teams are great, then they fall off the next year, as their players 'age' enough that they are ineligible. This gives newer players the chance to take the place of the older players, but they then need a year to get to grips with the team/tactics etc. The next year, they are then powerful again, before bouncing back to underachieving/learning.

Very surprised to see England retain the ***le, I'm guessing they had a very talented 'new squad' come through last year, and retained them this year.

(Hope that made sense)

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I'm actually surprised that England won, because I didn't think that the squad was that good compared to previous years (2011, for example, had Wade, Yarde, Daly, Farrell, Ford, Launchbury, Kvesic, Mako Vunipola, Thomas and Robson).

Maybe it's signalling a general improvement in England age grade that a not-particularly-vintage crop can produce such a result.




Edit:
Jeeze, looking at our side in the 2011 final, it wouldn't be completely out of the questions as a side to face BaaBaas or something these days:

15) Ben Ransom (Saracens)
14) Andy Short (Worcester Warriors)
13) Elliot Daly (London Wasps)
12) Owen Farrell (Saracens)
11) Christian Wade (London Wasps)
10) George Ford (Leicester Tigers)
9) Chris Cook (Bath Rugby)
1) Mako Vunipola (Saracens)
2) Mikey Haywood (Northampton Saints)
3) Henry Thomas (Sale Sharks)
4) Joe Launchbury (London Wasps)
5) Charlie Matthews (Harlequins)
6) Sam Jones (London Wasps)
7) Matt Kvesic (Worcester Warriors)
8) Alex Gray (Captain) (Newcastle Falcons)
Replacements:
16) Rob Buchanan (Harlequins) on for Mikey Haywood 73 mins
17) Will Collier (Harlequins) on for Henry Thomas 61 mins
18) Sam Twomey (Harlequins) on for Matt Kvesic 75 mins
19) Matt Everard (Leicester Tigers) on for Same Jones 73
20) Dan Robson (Gloucester Rugby) on for Chris Cook 61mins
21) Ryan Mills (Gloucester Rugby) on for Owen Farrell 49 mins
22) Marland Yarde (London Irish) on for Andy Short 43 mins

 

[ratsapprentice]

You're rating that 2011 side with hindsight of their achievements since though...

No doubt it was exceptional, but judging by the years since then it was really the first year when the new academy structure started to kick into gear (and the first generation of kids inspired by 2003 - seriously).
If the current system stays in place I would expect us to keep improving.

 

[Rich Taff]

I'm actually surprised that England won, because I didn't think that the squad was that good compared to previous years (2011, for example, had Wade, Yarde, Daly, Farrell, Ford, Launchbury, Kvesic, Mako Vunipola, Thomas and Robson).

Maybe it's signalling a general improvement in England age grade that a not-particularly-vintage crop can produce such a result.





Edit:
Jeeze, looking at our side in the 2011 final, it wouldn't be completely out of the questions as a side to face BaaBaas or something these days:

15) Ben Ransom (Saracens)
14) Andy Short (Worcester Warriors)
13) Elliot Daly (London Wasps)
12) Owen Farrell (Saracens)
11) Christian Wade (London Wasps)
10) George Ford (Leicester Tigers)
9) Chris Cook (Bath Rugby)
1) Mako Vunipola (Saracens)
2) Mikey Haywood (Northampton Saints)
3) Henry Thomas (Sale Sharks)
4) Joe Launchbury (London Wasps)
5) Charlie Matthews (Harlequins)
6) Sam Jones (London Wasps)
7) Matt Kvesic (Worcester Warriors)
8) Alex Gray (Captain) (Newcastle Falcons)
Replacements:
16) Rob Buchanan (Harlequins) on for Mikey Haywood 73 mins
17) Will Collier (Harlequins) on for Henry Thomas 61 mins
18) Sam Twomey (Harlequins) on for Matt Kvesic 75 mins
19) Matt Everard (Leicester Tigers) on for Same Jones 73
20) Dan Robson (Gloucester Rugby) on for Chris Cook 61mins
21) Ryan Mills (Gloucester Rugby) on for Owen Farrell 49 mins
22) Marland Yarde (London Irish) on for Andy Short 43 mins

Wow, I didn't realise Launchbury was that young.
Kinda makes me feel old to see the Vunipola's as full internationals, when I remember them as little kids watching Pontypool with their dad playing.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

You're rating that 2011 side with hindsight of their achievements since though...

No doubt it was exceptional, but judging by the years since then it was really the first year when the new academy structure started to kick into gear (and the first generation of kids inspired by 2003 - seriously).
If the current system stays in place I would expect us to keep improving.

Aye, that is a fair point. Think Farrell and Thomas were the only ones getting consistent game time.

It does show that the U20s is a good stepping stone, though.
In years gone by quite a few u20(/u21) players wouldn't make the cut for senior rugby, but just 3 years on you've got 7 with England caps, one with Lions caps, and a few right on the fringe of the England setup.

 

[Maverick1987]

Aye, that is a fair point. Think Farrell and Thomas were the only ones getting consistent game time.

It does show that the U20s is a good stepping stone, though.
In years gone by quite a few u20(/u21) players wouldn't make the cut for senior rugby, but just 3 years on you've got 7 with England caps, one with Lions caps, and a few right on the fringe of the England setup.

I count 11 with England caps ? Still a good return from a team that didn't win it !

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I count 11 with England caps ? Still a good return from a team that didn't win it !

I've got:
1) Farrell, 2) Ford, 3) Wade, 4) Yarde, 5) Monsieur Berry, 6) Thomas, 7) Kvesic

***I can't count***
8) Vunipola

Think that's it? Daly hasn't got a full cap, just "England XV/Saxons", same with Buchanan, Matthews and Collier, Gray only has 7s caps,

 

[Peat]

You're rating that 2011 side with hindsight of their achievements since though...

No doubt it was exceptional, but judging by the years since then it was really the first year when the new academy structure started to kick into gear (and the first generation of kids inspired by 2003 - seriously).
If the current system stays in place I would expect us to keep improving.

I, and most of the people I knew, thought the side was incredible at the time. It was clearly very talented and a lot of them had already started to make inroads into first teams. We outplayed the Baby Blacks in the final but spurned too many opportunities with the boot - and there were some very clearly very talented players in the Baby Blacks even at that age. Beauden Barrett, Charles Piautau and Sam Cane looked like "Whens, not Ifs", even at that age.

I would put money on the 2011 crop to beat either of the Cup Winning squads if given a time machine.

The full caps return from that age group

Lions & England

Vunipola, Farrell, Tuilagi (never actually played for England U20 due to club and senior international commitments but would have been part), Wade (just)

England

Launchbury, Thomas, Kvesic, Yarde, Joseph (didn't even make the final bench for crying out loud), Ford

England Saxons

Daly, Robson, Buchanan, Collier, Matthews

Sam Jones has played Baa-baas vs England, Gray has 7s caps...

Oh, nearly missed this one

Scotland

Kieran Low (missed JWC squad due to injury)

Wouldn't be surprising if Haywood (looked so good back then), Jones, Mills, Guy Armitage (didn't make bench) and Jamie Elliot (injured and missed the squad) were to all play a part some day.

Tbh, I feel that part of the reason we express surprise at how well our U20 sides do is that side spoiled us yet somehow didn't win it. That, and the standard of the U20 6Ns has risen a lot. It's not quite as obvious how good they are.

 

[Darwin]

I tend to agree with Peat's point that the 2011 England U20 side was very good. I'm far from an expert on England age-grade sides - my assessment is more based on the quality of the NZ side that year. As Peat states it was a very good NZ side - on paper at least I would suggest it was the strongest we have at U20 level (thought perhaps it wasn't as well coached as some of our previous sides). I'm not sure I would necessarily agree that England outplayed us in the final, but I feel it was a 50:50 game. As well as the likes of Barrett, Piutau and Cane (who Peat has already mentioned), we also had Brodie Retallick & TJ Perenara starting, along with fringe All Blacks such as Dominic Bird, Steven Luatua, Luke Whitelock, and Francis Saili, and a number who have developed into regular Super Rugby starters (Brad Shields, Ben Tameifuna, Gareth Anscombe & Lima Sopoaga). Any side that could match that NZ side must have been pretty damn good!

An interesting fact is Ringrose didn't make the Leinster U18 squad last year. Himself, Gaffney, Brewer, McCarthy and Ross Byrne are the backs available again next year as well as squad member Dardis.

I thought NZ had the best attack in the tournament. Their props were not great but the pack was good in the loose.

Calling out props this season "not great" is perhaps being a bit too generous