[2014 Mid-Year Test] South Africa vs Wales (1st Test)

[Ragey Erasmus]

Well jbobo1, I know that my negativity towards the Welsh has come from regular comments I've seen Welsh making about the English, although not on here fortunately. You have to remember that asd an English person post 2013 a lot of Welsh become insufferable going "30-3" every opportunity they got. Many Welsh also then boasted about how they alone won the Lions tour and how they were going to waltz through the last 6N setting a new record of 3 wins back to back. I think after all that, getting a few barbs back and enjoying seeing Wales taken down a peg or 2 is to be expected.

Welsh posters on here seem much more reasonable though. Never liked Gatland though and I don't think that will change. Thought that since before 2012.

 

[psychic duck]

The trouble is that the guys they have coming through aren't of the quality of the current crop (at their peak).
Particularly their forwards... the next 5 years could potentially be pretty lean for them.

Jenkins, Adam Jones and Phillips all at their best were possible World XV (okay maybe Phillips is pushing it, but you can see the point I'm making) and now all appear finished as a force in international rugby. They might hang around longer, but they've are all a LONG way from their peak and are unlikely to rekindle their old form now.

Those are 3 key players to the side that was winning and are not easy to replace. Jenkins has been waning for over a year or so now and had several injuries take it out of him and is getting targeted by refs. Phillips has been waning ever since the World Cup in all honesty. Adam Jones is in a pickle with his contract mess and his career had now gone full circle, from subbed off at 30 minutes, to one of the best props in the world, to subbed off at 30 minutes again.

I can't emphasise how important the scrum was during those back to back 6 Nations ***les. Gatlandball at it's absolute best always came from the opponents being whistled off the park, like 30-3 and the Lions against Australia in 2013. Now Adam sadly is ageing and waning, Gethin Jenkins can no longer be carried and is getting pinged by refs. That England game in 2013 could never happen now with the scrum engagements now exposing the looseheads more. Likewise Hibbard, who acted like a 3rd prop before, is not so effective as a hooker. The front 5 in 2012/13 has gone from a strength, to now average (Ian Evans form has gone AWOL as well and Charteris is ever crocked). Only AWJ I could make an argument for now as a Lions starter (and argument for not certain starter in case there is confusion), a year ago the entire front 5 made the Lions squad and were in contention.

It would make sense for Paul James, Ken Owens and Samson Lee to be the first choice front row now. Assuming Gatland dropped his bizarre fascination with Rhodri Jones at tighthead.

And as an aside, that 2019 contract for Gatland is one of the most absurd things I've seen. It's overtaken Eddie O'Sullivan's bumper pre-2007 World Cup contract as one of the most ill fated I've seen. It's time for some fresh ideas in the coaching staff. Gatland will likely finish the year with a 1-28 record against SANZAR nations. SANZAR simply worked him out, now Lancaster and Schmidt have as well and he doesn't appear to have a Plan B or adaptation once sides work him out. Hence the constant losses to Australia.

 

[TheSaffycen]

Wales need to start playing a big ball carrying 8 he can bust the tackles and get hard yards, IMO Faletau is a good player but not a great one. They need to change up their game plan and not do the same thing over and over. The England game for example - even though it clearly wasn't working they kept going long at the lineout and Roberts crashing it up, when that didn't work they did it again. That's the main problem is that Priestland isn't very good, and what he offers you is this erratic taking it too the line fly half but he makes the wrong decision. THe backline is great for running hard and being physical but there is no real kicking game and it is a big problem, when you start pressuring them only Biggar has a kicking game, Priestland doesn't really have the nous to know when to kick. They need more creative players who also have the mental strength to know when it's on.
I think the back line for Wales should be Morgan/Hook-North-Biggar-Davies-Cuthbert-Halfpenny

 

[psychic duck]

Wales need to start playing a big ball carrying 8 he can bust the tackles and get hard yards, IMO Faletau is a good player but not a great one. They need to change up their game plan and not do the same thing over and over. The England game for example - even though it clearly wasn't working they kept going long at the lineout and Roberts crashing it up, when that didn't work they did it again. That's the main problem is that Priestland isn't very good, and what he offers you is this erratic taking it too the line fly half but he makes the wrong decision. THe backline is great for running hard and being physical but there is no real kicking game and it is a big problem, when you start pressuring them only Biggar has a kicking game, Priestland doesn't really have the nous to know when to kick. They need more creative players who also have the mental strength to know when it's on.
I think the back line for Wales should be Morgan/Hook-North-Biggar-Davies-Cuthbert-Halfpenny

Faletau is an excellent athlete at 8 but not a great ball carrying collision winner at 8. He's suffering from the balance of the pack. If you look at Jenkins, Owens, Adam Jones, AWJ, Charteris, Lydiate etc. How many of those are great ball carriers? Some could even be said to be non existent ball carriers. That's doesn't have to be a problem as they can still offer elsewhere, but you need a gainline winner somewhere in the pack and the pack currently doesn't have any. If Faletau was an 8 in a pack that had 2 or 3 very efficient gainline winners, then he would thrive. But the without the front foot ball and reduced set piece he is not getting the chance to do that so much.

Priestland is broken as an international fly half I'm afraid, and I feel Gatland didn't help him by continually playing him off form. Hook isn't a fly half, that much has been clear for years now, and Matthew Morgan well ... just no, poor defence, poor game control, the only people who would pick him would be a Highlight Reel Harry who saw a flashy break in an international-period Rabo game against weak opposition. He won't make it as an international.

For the moment the best option is clearly Biggar (who's very underrated by the way), whilst Rhys Patchell and Owen Williams will challenge in the near future. Time to discard Priestland and Hook as a viable international option at 10.

 

[j'nuh]

Jenkins, Adam Jones and Phillips all at their best were possible World XV (okay maybe Phillips is pushing it, but you can see the point I'm making) and now all appear finished as a force in international rugby. They might hang around longer, but they've are all a LONG way from their peak and are unlikely to rekindle their old form now.

Those are 3 key players to the side that was winning and are not easy to replace. Jenkins has been waning for over a year or so now and had several injuries take it out of him and is getting targeted by refs. Phillips has been waning ever since the World Cup in all honesty. Adam Jones is in a pickle with his contract mess and his career had now gone full circle, from subbed off at 30 minutes, to one of the best props in the world, to subbed off at 30 minutes again.

I can't emphasise how important the scrum was during those back to back 6 Nations ***les. Gatlandball at it's absolute best always came from the opponents being whistled off the park, like 30-3 and the Lions against Australia in 2013. Now Adam sadly is ageing and waning, Gethin Jenkins can no longer be carried and is getting pinged by refs. That England game in 2013 could never happen now with the scrum engagements now exposing the looseheads more. Likewise Hibbard, who acted like a 3rd prop before, is not so effective as a hooker. The front 5 in 2012/13 has gone from a strength, to now average (Ian Evans form has gone AWOL as well and Charteris is ever crocked). Only AWJ I could make an argument for now as a Lions starter (and argument for not certain starter in case there is confusion), a year ago the entire front 5 made the Lions squad and were in contention.

It would make sense for Paul James, Ken Owens and Samson Lee to be the first choice front row now. Assuming Gatland dropped his bizarre fascination with Rhodri Jones at tighthead.

And as an aside, that 2019 contract for Gatland is one of the most absurd things I've seen. It's overtaken Eddie O'Sullivan's bumper pre-2007 World Cup contract as one of the most ill fated I've seen. It's time for some fresh ideas in the coaching staff. Gatland will likely finish the year with a 1-28 record against SANZAR nations. SANZAR simply worked him out, now Lancaster and Schmidt have as well and he doesn't appear to have a Plan B or adaptation once sides work him out. Hence the constant losses to Australia.

Hibbard's form was sensational last year. He hit his career best and was at one point, Wales' stand-out player. He had a comparatively bad six nations, but he was carrying an injury at the time, which accounted for the missed lineouts and such, and has since had surgery to correct it. He's said that he feels great now. He's also going to get a full pre-season. The last time he was injury-free, he was great. I wouldn't rule him out just yet.

Faletau is an excellent athlete at 8 but not a great ball carrying collision winner at 8. He's suffering from the balance of the pack. If you look at Jenkins, Owens, Adam Jones, AWJ, Charteris, Lydiate etc. How many of those are great ball carriers? Some could even be said to be non existent ball carriers. That's doesn't have to be a problem as they can still offer elsewhere, but you need a gainline winner somewhere in the pack and the pack currently doesn't have any. If Faletau was an 8 in a pack that had 2 or 3 very efficient gainline winners, then he would thrive. But the without the front foot ball and reduced set piece he is not getting the chance to do that so much.

Priestland is broken as an international fly half I'm afraid, and I feel Gatland didn't help him by continually playing him off form. Hook isn't a fly half, that much has been clear for years now, and Matthew Morgan well ... just no, poor defence, poor game control, the only people who would pick him would be a Highlight Reel Harry who saw a flashy break in an international-period Rabo game against weak opposition. He won't make it as an international.

For the moment the best option is clearly Biggar (who's very underrated by the way), whilst Rhys Patchell and Owen Williams will challenge in the near future. Time to discard Priestland and Hook as a viable international option at 10.

When was the last time Hook got an extended run at 10 (or in any position) for Wales? Next year, he'll be starting at fly-half for Glos week-in, week-out. Age-wise, he should also be in his prime. It will be his best opportunity to prove his fly-half credentials.

 

[psychic duck]

Hibbard is a nutter and is great in the collision. However last year part of what made him highly effective was his ability in the scrum, but he is built like a prop and his effectiveness there is lessened now hookers are hooking more. I'm not writing him off completely, but I doubt he will hit 2013 again in his career. Owens ought to be first choice at the World Cup.

As for Hook. He has more than enough time at 10 and the same thing happens every time. A chance in the good Ospreys team at 10 - fails and shifted out to 12. A chance at Wales at 10 - fails and shifted out to utility back bench player. A chance at Perpignan at 10 - fails and they sign Camille Lopez and move him to full back. In fact his choke of a performance in the World Cup semi final where he was hauled off for Stephen Jones at about 50 minutes is one of the few times Gatland has actually thought on his feet and adjusted the team when things weren't working right, Wales were far better with Wellies in that game.

Hook is a good skilful footballer, that shouldn't be confused with a good fly half. As a fly half he is the Welsh version of Michalak. I believe he could have made a class international player as a centre, unfortunately that ship appears to have sailed as he gave up his place moving to 10 in the 2011 6 Nations and Roberts/Davies has been there ever since.

 

[j'nuh]

re: Hibbard. It's possible. We saw before Huw Bennett just drop off the face of the planet after having had a great time for Wales for a year or so. I don't think Hibbard will. He was within the top three hookers in the world last year. Would have to be a gargantuan drop-off for his involvement with Wales to lessen and he's not at the kind of age where age will catch up with him. I think that if his body survives the thrashings that he's giving it, then he'll keep starting for Wales.

re: Hook, I never took it as him failing at 10 for all these clubs, but rather that the clubs he has been at have abused his versatility in order to accommodate other international 10s. What connects Ospreys and Perpignan is that whilst Hook was at these teams, fly-half was a strong position and fullback was not. If you can start Biggar and Hook/Lopez and Hook at the same time, why wouldn't you? Same with Wales - Hook has played for his utility and gets picked in any position 10, 12, 13, 15. He's even currently subbing at 10 after having played 15 all season for Perpignan.

Worth pointing out that, for a long time, fullback was Hook's worst position of those he plays, until he got a prolonged regular run-out there. He's exceptionally talented, but it must be hard to juggle so many positions. I think his best performances for Wales were as a 13, but I think that he's quality enough a player to make an impact wherever he plays, as long as he and the coaches pick a position and stick with it.

 

[psychic duck]

re: Hibbard. It's possible. We saw before Huw Bennett just drop off the face of the planet after having had a great time for Wales for a year or so. I don't think Hibbard will. He was within the top three hookers in the world last year. Would have to be a gargantuan drop-off for his involvement with Wales to lessen and he's not at the kind of age where age will catch up with him. I think that if his body survives the thrashings that he's giving it, then he'll keep starting for Wales.

re: Hook, I never took it as him failing at 10 for all these clubs, but rather that the clubs he has been at have abused his versatility in order to accommodate other international 10s. What connects Ospreys and Perpignan is that whilst Hook was at these teams, fly-half was a strong position and fullback was not. If you can start Biggar and Hook/Lopez and Hook at the same time, why wouldn't you? Same with Wales - Hook has played for his utility and gets picked in any position 10, 12, 13, 15. He's even currently subbing at 10 after having played 15 all season for Perpignan.

Worth pointing out that, for a long time, fullback was Hook's worst position of those he plays, until he got a prolonged regular run-out there. He's exceptionally talented, but it must be hard to juggle so many positions. I think his best performances for Wales were as a 13, but I think that he's quality enough a player to make an impact wherever he plays, as long as he and the coaches pick a position and stick with it.

Well he definitely failed at the Ospreys. Bare in mind he got dropped for a kid version of Biggar, not the today's version and unfortunately collapsed in some big European games. And he has just overseen Perpignan get relegated since they moved him back to 10 when Lopez got injured so I wouldn't consider that move much of a success either.

I think people still want Hook as 10 as he never (apart from possibly France 2011) really totally collapsed quite like Michalak has, but he has did at 10 for the Ospreys just people don't remember it so well.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Okay, I've had time to re-watch and consider.

I have had to take my words back after the game against the World XV regarding Matfield and Botha. De Jager and his big frame seems a lot more comfortable at test level in the tight exchanges than for the Cheetahs with their pace and width game. The selectors possibly had that in mind as I still don't think you'd have picked him ahead of Lewies or even Michael Rhodes based purely on super rugby form. Hendricks looks like he has something to offer. He did well enough in defense particularly with his shepherding when he was 1 defending 3, if anybody I think JPP was the biggest sinner on defense but 13 is a complex position ITO defensive play. I wasn't wrong on all counts though;

Our props added little on the park and are just tired. It's not like the other options have been poor in the scrum in Super rugby so why not look at them and rather leave Guthro in France? Look at the Adriaanse and Malherbe for instance; bth were given a shot and both excelled IMO. Now that Malherbe is injured why not go to Redelinghuys who has been class or use Marcel van der Merwe who surely wasn't picked in the squad for a laugh? TBF though it's not up to Meyer to rest the likes of Mtawarira and Jannie; SARU should have a real stern word with Jake White and co. Aren't there set rest periods for senior Bok players in place for SR?

So with injuries, bans and Steyn's tantrum in mind what I'd want to see next up;

1 Van der Merwe / Nyakane simply to allow Beast some much needed down time seeing as
2 BdP - not a vintage game on the weekend but you don't throw this guy away on the back of 1 poor game
3 Oosthuizen - Du Plessis is tired!! Are both Malherbe AND Adriaanse injured- can't see why he'd not be called up otherwise? I'd call up Redelinghuys to sub if Adriaanse isn't available
4 De Jager - Botha has torn his AC again?
5 Matfield - why not considering injuries
6 Louw - would have liked Brussow in 1 fixture but I suppose there is little point dreaming
7 Burger - I still have Alberts as a certainty but he is another Shark that gets no rest under White
8 Vermeulen can also do with some down time TBH though you can't blame AC; the Stormers have been so decimated by injuries there just hasn't been any chance to rest your 1 Bok forward. Who to bring in though with Arno Botha injured? Carr and Whiteley have been the form loose forwards so I'd probably have one of them. Again, probably pointless dreaming.
9 FdP - surely now it's time for Hougaard? We really should have had Reinach or De Klerk for at least 1 of these fixtures IMO as Pienaar has been poor for us for a while and while Hougaard has improved in SR he has not been better than either of the new kids on the block
10 M Steyn - was playing some good rugby on the weekend (being benched in France might be a bit of a blessing?) and his partnership with FdP seems as ssettled as ever - I see the media are putting forward Boshoff as a bench option with Goosen injured along with Lambie and Pollard in the final in the ITB JRWC; I like it!
11 Habana
12 Serfontein - I know JdV will get the spot when fit again.. I suppose that fine(ish)
13 Is De Jongh over his illness? JPP is a stop-gap here and it shows - De Allende is my long term option when fit
14 Hendricks - not sure who I'd like long term with JPP in poor form and Mvovo seen as utility
15 Le Roux

 

[TRF_heineken]

Okay, I've had time to re-watch and consider.

I have had to take my words back after the game against the World XV regarding Matfield and Botha. De Jager and his big frame seems a lot more comfortable at test level in the tight exchanges than for the Cheetahs with their pace and width game. The selectors possibly had that in mind as I still don't think you'd have picked him ahead of Lewies or even Michael Rhodes based purely on super rugby form. Hendricks looks like he has something to offer. He did well enough in defense particularly with his shepherding when he was 1 defending 3, if anybody I think JPP was the biggest sinner on defense but 13 is a complex position ITO defensive play. I wasn't wrong on all counts though;

Our props added little on the park and are just tired. It's not like the other options have been poor in the scrum in Super rugby so why not look at them and rather leave Guthro in France? Look at the Adriaanse and Malherbe for instance; bth were given a shot and both excelled IMO. Now that Malherbe is injured why not go to Redelinghuys who has been class or use Marcel van der Merwe who surely wasn't picked in the squad for a laugh? TBF though it's not up to Meyer to rest the likes of Mtawarira and Jannie; SARU should have a real stern word with Jake White and co. Aren't there set rest periods for senior Bok players in place for SR?

So with injuries, bans and Steyn's tantrum in mind what I'd want to see next up;

1 Van der Merwe / Nyakane simply to allow Beast some much needed down time seeing as
2 BdP - not a vintage game on the weekend but you don't throw this guy away on the back of 1 poor game
3 Oosthuizen - Du Plessis is tired!! Are both Malherbe AND Adriaanse injured- can't see why he'd not be called up otherwise? I'd call up Redelinghuys to sub if Adriaanse isn't available
4 De Jager - Botha has torn his AC again?
5 Matfield - why not considering injuries
6 Louw - would have liked Brussow in 1 fixture but I suppose there is little point dreaming
7 Burger - I still have Alberts as a certainty but he is another Shark that gets no rest under White
8 Vermeulen can also do with some down time TBH though you can't blame AC; the Stormers have been so decimated by injuries there just hasn't been any chance to rest your 1 Bok forward. Who to bring in though with Arno Botha injured? Carr and Whiteley have been the form loose forwards so I'd probably have one of them. Again, probably pointless dreaming.
9 FdP - surely now it's time for Hougaard? We really should have had Reinach or De Klerk for at least 1 of these fixtures IMO as Pienaar has been poor for us for a while and while Hougaard has improved in SR he has not been better than either of the new kids on the block
10 M Steyn - was playing some good rugby on the weekend (being benched in France might be a bit of a blessing?) and his partnership with FdP seems as ssettled as ever - I see the media are putting forward Boshoff as a bench option with Goosen injured along with Lambie and Pollard in the final in the ITB JRWC; I like it!
11 Habana
12 Serfontein - I know JdV will get the spot when fit again.. I suppose that fine(ish)
13 Is De Jongh over his illness? JPP is a stop-gap here and it shows - De Allende is my long term option when fit
14 Hendricks - not sure who I'd like long term with JPP in poor form and Mvovo seen as utility
15 Le Roux

Stormer, I can't understand what's with the negativity?

Guthro was brilliant on the weekend and dominated at the scrums, why not keep him there? He's now 30, and still has a lot to offer.

I thought the team played great! Willem was again a beast! And this pack we have and the style HM is trying to implement, will be and is a very potent weapon. For a change our Backs gets a lot more ball to attack with, and they use it much better than before.

 

[Maverick1987]

I feel like wales are coming to a crossroads with a few players getting on (Jones and Jenkins) the new players could replace them easily in a similar fashion to Warburton replacing Martin Williams and North replacing Shane Williams or it could go worse .

Only time will tell I suppose

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Stormer, I can't understand what's with the negativity?

Guthro was brilliant on the weekend and dominated at the scrums, why not keep him there? He's now 30, and still has a lot to offer.

I thought the team played great! Willem was again a beast! And this pack we have and the style HM is trying to implement, will be and is a very potent weapon. For a change our Backs gets a lot more ball to attack with, and they use it much better than before.

I don't know what you're on about; I was being much more optimistic than usual. Almost a bloody ray of sunshine.

On Steenkamp, while he was useful at scrumtime he wasn't exactly dominant so I can't justify his inclusion purely for his work in th scrums (where we have better options overseas like Heinke van der Merwe who is also younger) and I can't agree his game was brilliant; was very poor handling the ball at least twice I can recall and I didn't see him at the break down as much as I'd want; we need to get a little extra work from our props if they aren't there as absolute beaasts in the scrums IMO. Maybe I just expect more- which I don't see as a negative.

 

[Big Ewis]

exactly, if SA are to call Top 14 players up, they might as well forget about Steenkamp (who hasn't been all that great in the Toulouse scrum btw all year long and doesn't do much besides that) and pick up Morné Steyn's clubmate and loosehead van der Merwe. He's 29yo, which is just about peaktime for a prop, not too young and soft but not crumbling with old age, and this guy can seriously scrummage. He'd be a fantastic replacement for Beast off the bench.

Oh and while you're at it, keep Toulon's Bakkies Botha and take back Juan Smith for the bench, definitely pick up Castres' Kockott, Racing's Kruger, definitely take Craig Burden back for replacement hooker, you were wrong about him.
That is all.

 

[SomeOke]

definitely take Craig Burden back for replacement hooker, you were wrong about him.
That is all.

No we weren't. He's horrible in the set piece. Being a good ball runner in space is not a highly valued attribute for a hooker in South Africa. This is partly why Brits has always been on the fringes at best.

At this point I just want to escape these tests with dignity. We have enough injuries that our squad is simultaneously weakened, but also forced to start some players who wouldn't necessarily be in contention. Meaning we are forced to do enough experimenting without adding more wild cards to the mix by choice. I just want to win these tests, without any weird upsets (and besides since I'm going to the Scotland test, will be nice to see all the Ballies live).

I have faith that HM can win the next 2 tests and that's enough, at least until the RC.

 

[TheSaffycen]

Priestland is broken as an international fly half I'm afraid, and I feel Gatland didn't help him by continually playing him off form. Hook isn't a fly half, that much has been clear for years now, and Matthew Morgan well ... just no, poor defence, poor game control, the only people who would pick him would be a Highlight Reel Harry who saw a flashy break in an international-period Rabo game against weak opposition. He won't make it as an international.

Forgot about Williams and Patchell, but it's just the style of play that Wales should look to play. Roberts and Davies looked at their best when Sexton was there (God if he was Welsh) taking the ball up. I don't know if Biggar can do that but from what i see he is an intelligent kicking fly-half and is very pragmatic in his approach, he is bloody good all round don't get me wrong but i think wales need more creativity which Morgan and Hook bring. Also has Morgan had much of a chance at fly half ? I think i saw him at U20 level and he was bloody good, so why not try him? His game managment shouldn't be a problem with Biggar there to help him and he can be moved to 15 when defending, Australia did it with Beale and cooper

 

[Gena_ZA]

Attended the match, my first at the Shark tank. Great venue, scary steep seats I must say. Got bad seats but had the privilege to see Habana score bout 15 meters from me.
Great crowd and less drunk supporters than at any other stadium I have been to in SA. After party lived up to expectation. Poor turn out with about 38000 people and the weather was great.

Had breakfast with some Welsh tourist and a few sat around us at the game, fabulous people and remian my favorite nation in Europe - rugby and people.
Interesting a guy in front of me had a scarf he got 10 years ago and it was made in 2 parts, one side SA and the other Wales, never seen that beofre and as he said common over there.

Bokke did well and set the tone for a good 2014!

 

[Big Ewis]

No we weren't. He's horrible in the set piece. Being a good ball runner in space is not a highly valued attribute for a hooker in South Africa. This is partly why Brits has always been on the fringes at best.

how DARE you question my posts ?!!!!!!!!

Well Burden isn't just a fantastic running hooker, he's incredibly crafty like Kockott at 9 and plays his little tricks on teams and fools them, he's got killer workrate for a hooker, he clears out rucks, tackles like a BITSH (in a good way, I mean he tackles really hard) for a hooker, my God...the throws are okay and he seems good in the scrum. Guy could easily help out S.A.

And trust me anyways, okay. What the fk do you know about South African Rugby eh ?

 

[Gena_ZA]

You said it, he was rated 2nd/3rd in Natal for a reason, he was not good enough.
Not the first average player that shines in French club rugby

 

[TRF_heineken]

You said it, he was rated 2nd/3rd in Natal for a reason, he was not good enough.
Not the first average player that shines in French club rugby

Ditto!

he will never be better than Bismarck, or Adriaan Strauss!

 

[Big Ewis]

You said it, he was rated 2nd/3rd in Natal for a reason, he was not good enough.
Not the first average player that shines in French club rugby

reality is, he isn't average. Like, at all. But then of course you can just go on saying he is, and this isn't a conversation anymore, it's what most ppl in the world do: exchanging their own point of view without ever listening to the other.

Have you thought of the possibility he's one of those players who never really got his chance in his home country, like many players in all sports who are on loaded teams and never get the minutes to show what they can really do, and then move to another team/another league and do get the time and explode onto the scene ? He came in as a medical joker, and he turned out to be gold for Toulon, and Toulon aren't exactly an average team, and that goes for the world, not just France or Europe.