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[2014 Mid-Year Test] South Africa vs Wales (1st Test)

reality is, he isn't average. Like, at all. But then of course you can just go on saying he is, and this isn't a conversation anymore, it's what most ppl in the world do: exchanging their own point of view without ever listening to the other.

Have you thought of the possibility he's one of those players who never really got his chance in his home country, like many players in all sports who are on loaded teams and never get the minutes to show what they can really do, and then move to another team/another league and do get the time and explode onto the scene ? He came in as a medical joker, and he turned out to be gold for Toulon, and Toulon aren't exactly an average team, and that goes for the world, not just France or Europe.

Hmmm...

He was Bismarck's understudy at the Sharks.

While the Cheetahs had Adriaan Strauss.

Chilliboy was at the Bulls.

Tiaan Liebenberg was at the Stormers.

All of them are Springboks, so who do you think had to give him the chance? The Kings or the Lions? Well they had Bandise Maku. and he is also a springbok.

At hooker we have a lot of great players, and Burden had to know that while Bismarck is playing so well, that he won't get his chance. He went on his own acccord to France, because no matter which team he would've represented, he wouldn't have been a regular starter. This year is maybe the first year where we have been a bit low on quality hookers. but then again, a guy like Callie Visagie has really stood up. Burden's problem is that he dissappears in tight games. and that is one aspect us saffas thrive on.
 
Really, Saffas thrive on tight game situations, huh ?...of course they do, how could they not, they're South Africa...hopefully for them next RWC they'll thrive on it a little bit more than in the last in that 1/4F, then...
and I have no clue how Burden played in S.A., but I guess he was about 20% the player he is now. The dude did ANYTHING but shrink in either competition this year (H Cup, Top 14). In fact he was brilliant in the final phases.

I get the impression, and this is materializing more and more as it goes, that Saffas (coach or fan) throw away or dismiss their players too quickly. In the stuff they put in the bin, anyone else would find perfectly good, if not VERY good trash wastefully thrown away. The Top 14 isn't a league that picks up old scrap iron from other places anymore. Guys like Hosea Gear, Nalaga, Nagusa, Sivivatu....etc....score tries over any side in the world, and S.A. themselves will still go and pick a Botha or Steenkamp (the latter being a very average often-benched player for Toulouse). On which topic Morné Steyn was benched the whole year for 22yo Jules Plisson in Paris, and need I remind the readers he's South Africa's no.1 choice at fly-half.

Moreover, Juandré Kruger or Kockott could play in any national side, esp. Kockott. Juan Smith or Danie Russow are still world class at what they do. The list goes on. The point being the Top 14 isn't what you guys from abroad might think. The cliché of it being some league collecting old rusty pieces the SH rejects is fiction.
 
"But then of course you can just go on saying he is, and this isn't a conversation anymore, it's what most ppl in the world do: exchanging their own point of view without ever listening to the other"

Exactly what you are doing now isn't it?

For us he was under par - ask any Sharks supporter - he would have the odd brilliant game and do a 80 meter try out sprinting the wingers (he is a ex winger btw)
For you there in France he is doing well, great, happy for him and the local club.
BUT it does not change that he was underperforming in SA, for whatever reason, so was Rory
 
2. Everyone has friction with the English and visa versa, it's old empire baggage, most of us have been at war with England at some point.

Although i agree with the "empire baggage" comment, it shows the ignorance of many in that the Empire was in fact British, which also included the Welsh, Scots & Irish. As far as i know England and the Boers never had a war, and to be even more pedantic, as far as i know the British didnt have a war with Kiwis or Aussies either unless you count the Maoris.

So IMO any such comments linking any animosity to England due to Empire are BS. :rolleyes:
 
and now you making a generic statement:

"I get the impression, and this is materializing more and more as it goes, that Saffas (coach or fan) throw away or dismiss their players too quickly. In the stuff they put in the bin, anyone else would find perfectly good, if not VERY good trash wastefully thrown away."

Players leave, to make money, some succeed some don't. A few players that was mediocre at home became brilliant theree, and vice versa. Some have come back better players than before.
Saun Sowerby, Big Joe van Niekerk, Cronje brothers. To each there own little story and the merits that associated it.
 
Although i agree with the "empire baggage" comment, it shows the ignorance of many in that the Empire was in fact British, which also included the Welsh, Scots & Irish. As far as i know England and the Boers never had a war, and to be even more pedantic, as far as i know the British didnt have a war with Kiwis or Aussies either unless you count the Maoris.

So IMO any such comments linking any animosity to England due to Empire are BS. :rolleyes:

Anglo Boer war - go read up on it
But I hate to bring that into sport and never will, this is 2014 a people should wake up FFS
 
"But then of course you can just go on saying he is, and this isn't a conversation anymore, it's what most ppl in the world do: exchanging their own point of view without ever listening to the other"

Exactly what you are doing now isn't it?

For us he was under par - ask any Sharks supporter - he would have the odd brilliant game and do a 80 meter try out sprinting the wingers (he is a ex winger btw)
For you there in France he is doing well, great, happy for him and the local club.
BUT it does not change that he was underperforming in SA, for whatever reason, so was Rory

"Exactly what you are doing now isn't it?"

nope.

But fair enough, what you're saying. For wtvr reason these guys weren't as good as now in France...

 
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Anglo Boer war - go read up on it
But I hate to bring that into sport and never will, this is 2014 a people should wake up FFS

The 1st Boer War was in 1880 and the 2nd in 1899. The English stopped being a singular country in 1707.

It maybe unnecessary to mention it on a sport site to you, but i get sick to death with ignorant people like yourself singling out my country in matters appertaining to all of the UK. Anglo, is generally used by many countries to describe English speakers and not necessarily England.
 
The 1st Boer War was in 1880 and the 2nd in 1899. The English stopped being a singular country in 1707.

It maybe unnecessary to mention it on a sport site to you, but i get sick to death with ignorant people like yourself singling out my country in matters appertaining to all of the UK. Anglo, is generally used by many countries to describe English speakers and not necessarily England.

now you're just fooling yourself :p just look at your signature ffs.
 
now you're just fooling yourself :p just look at your signature ffs.

WTF are you on about....that comment is a well known war cry from the days of Agincourt. It has bugger all to do with the political entity established in 1707. I thought you were smarter than that Big E :rolleyes:
 
The 1st Boer War was in 1880 and the 2nd in 1899. The English stopped being a singular country in 1707.

It maybe unnecessary to mention it on a sport site to you, but i get sick to death with ignorant people like yourself singling out my country in matters appertaining to all of the UK. Anglo, is generally used by many countries to describe English speakers and not necessarily England.

For God's sakes - I am saying it makes me sick as well if people throw wars more than a century ago in snotty remarks into sports sites - read my statement again
 
For God's sakes - I am saying it makes me sick as well if people throw wars more than a century ago in snotty remarks into sports sites - read my statement again

100% agree, but maybe next time you will quote the original poster from your country who happened to mention it. Dont get snotty with me.:p
 
Really, Saffas thrive on tight game situations, huh ?...of course they do, how could they not, they're South Africa...hopefully for them next RWC they'll thrive on it a little bit more than in the last in that 1/4F, then...
and I have no clue how Burden played in S.A., but I guess he was about 20% the player he is now. The dude did ANYTHING but shrink in either competition this year (H Cup, Top 14). In fact he was brilliant in the final phases.

I get the impression, and this is materializing more and more as it goes, that Saffas (coach or fan) throw away or dismiss their players too quickly. In the stuff they put in the bin, anyone else would find perfectly good, if not VERY good trash wastefully thrown away. The Top 14 isn't a league that picks up old scrap iron from other places anymore. Guys like Hosea Gear, Nalaga, Nagusa, Sivivatu....etc....score tries over any side in the world, and S.A. themselves will still go and pick a Botha or Steenkamp (the latter being a very average often-benched player for Toulouse). On which topic Morné Steyn was benched the whole year for 22yo Jules Plisson in Paris, and need I remind the readers he's South Africa's no.1 choice at fly-half.

Moreover, Juandré Kruger or Kockott could play in any national side, esp. Kockott. Juan Smith or Danie Russow are still world class at what they do. The list goes on. The point being the Top 14 isn't what you guys from abroad might think. The cliché of it being some league collecting old rusty pieces the SH rejects is fiction.

If we throw players away, then why does so many of them still get picked for SA?? Juandre Kruger was almost picked for the Bok-squad for this incoming tour, HM even said that in an open interview.

We never reject players. To us the Springbok is the ultimate accolade a player can get, unlike what's going on in France. We won't pick a guy if he doesn't tick off a few boxes.

Craig Burden, is too small, a poor thrower in the line-outs, a poor scrummager, and gives away a bunch of penalties. All things which an international hooker should excel at, like Bismarck and Adriaan. Deon Fourie is another example, as in Burden's case, and he's now also going to play in France.

You admit that you haven't seen him play when he played in SA, so then how can you go and judge him and how he'll fit in to the SA side? The variables are way too many to draw a comparison.

Now you go and show a video clip of him making a tackle on Brits. Wow! so based on one tackle we should pick him?? We can counter that with a collage of epic moments by Bismarck or Adriaan.

We don't dismiss players too quickly! Burden has been playing in SA for more than 3 years!! how long must we look at him before we decide that he's not going to make the cut? Yes there are the late bloomers, and those players might not always get a chance, but we would rather look at breeding young players that will give us longer periods of service. We prefer to pick players to make their debut only if they are based in SA. It's a way to reward them for staying in the country. But we are also aware of the fact that these guys can't play rugby forever, and has to get a decent amount of money to ensure financial safety for them and their families.

On the topic of Morne Steyn, may I suggest you go and read some older threads? It has been discussed so much that the one reason why he had such a slump is that he was overplayed. for 3 consecutive years he played every Super Rugby and Springbok game as well as Currie Cup without missing a single match. He was burnt out! now that he's getting more rest in France, his back to his old self with a lot more sharpness.

I don't know why you mention Danie Rossouw, He has retired from international rugby, so why talk about someone that's done with that part of his rugby career. Juan Smith, is a guy I'd like back in the squad, but he's not better than Willem Alberts or Schalk Burger at the moment, so he'll be our third choice. If one of them gets injured, then by all means pick him.

As for Kockott, enough has been said about the little shiit.
 
^ *sigh* :p ...

Alright then:
- South Africa definitely has not made a single selection mistake (not picking good players) ever, ever, ever and nothing at all whatsoever needs reconsideration
- Burden is shhit
- many shhit South African players play in France, in the Top 14
- playing for France isn't the highest accolade for a French player
- the only reason Steyn hasn't played more for Paris this season is because he's burnt out
- Juan Smith is good, still
- there isn't anything more to say about Rory Kockott, who is a little shiit.

Gotcha, all clear.
 
Although i agree with the "empire baggage" comment, it shows the ignorance of many in that the Empire was in fact British, which also included the Welsh, Scots & Irish. As far as i know England and the Boers never had a war, and to be even more pedantic, as far as i know the British didnt have a war with Kiwis or Aussies either unless you count the Maoris.

So IMO any such comments linking any animosity to England due to Empire are BS
. :rolleyes:

So partial (majority) responsibility effectively equates to zero responsibility in the light of what a people call themselves seperately or as a collective and even if it does 'technically' the agrieved people have are ignorant if they have any feeling of being aggrieved even if they feel the effects of war today still? Okay, got that. That actualy suit me fine as it means us Boere have a handy way of escaping any ancestral guilt we carry as a people too!

Listen, seriously now. I don't hold anything against any English person (at least not any individual) and I expect the same from any black man towards me as I was an infant during Apartheid and my father actually voted for free elections and I have no interest in debating the technicalities of Apartheid because when all is said and done a large group of people were set back hugely and suffered and is suffering now because of it and there's no two ways about it. It's history and lets move on as best we can together but to say one can't judge the past is ridiculous and it's unfair to deny people their feelings of general if not specific resentment. It's also not realistic to say these things won't (even if arguably it shouldn't) factor in a sporting context as that is the most simple way in which countries are competing against each other in the contemporary setting IE the teams bare the same names (or at last connoctations) of the nations that competed against each other in warfare in bygone days and of course that animosity will come up even if only as banter or minor motivation for the most part.

Really, Saffas thrive on tight game situations, huh ?...of course they do, how could they not, they're South Africa...hopefully for them next RWC they'll thrive on it a little bit more than in the last in that 1/4F, then...
and I have no clue how Burden played in S.A., but I guess he was about 20% the player he is now. The dude did ANYTHING but shrink in either competition this year (H Cup, Top 14). In fact he was brilliant in the final phases.

I get the impression, and this is materializing more and more as it goes, that Saffas (coach or fan) throw away or dismiss their players too quickly. In the stuff they put in the bin, anyone else would find perfectly good, if not VERY good trash wastefully thrown away. The Top 14 isn't a league that picks up old scrap iron from other places anymore. Guys like Hosea Gear, Nalaga, Nagusa, Sivivatu....etc....score tries over any side in the world, and S.A. themselves will still go and pick a Botha or Steenkamp (the latter being a very average often-benched player for Toulouse). On which topic Morné Steyn was benched the whole year for 22yo Jules Plisson in Paris, and need I remind the readers he's South Africa's no.1 choice at fly-half.

Moreover, Juandré Kruger or Kockott could play in any national side, esp. Kockott. Juan Smith or Danie Russow are still world class at what they do. The list goes on. The point being the Top 14 isn't what you guys from abroad might think. The cliché of it being some league collecting old rusty pieces the SH rejects is fiction.

I am not going to back all the other South Africans' statement but you do have to see SA's selections of foreign players out of the SA perspective;

- Guys like Guthro Steenkamp and Bakkies Botha are called up largely because they have proved themselves in the past in green and gold. In the cases od Burden and Kockott, yes they are in good form but the way they are regarded in SA will be based on what they achieved in SA (mostly notiriety) since the vast (99% probably) majority of SA fans don't follow Top 14. That does effect the selections for sure even if the selectors do probably keep very close tabs on our talent in Europe.
- Those old guys who might not be in top form at least earned their colors playing for local teams. If we start calling up guys who have not 'made their breaks' in SA we take another step in encouragiing our players to go for the bigger money while many are of the opinion we have gone to far in selecting overseas based players already. I am sure I don't need to address why a healthy local set up is crucial to a good test team.. I mean the reasons are just too many for a simple reply.
- The benefit of the selection should just fall to the guy in SA. Not least for the fact that the SA management will just have better access to him and more influence over the players management at sub-test level.
- The guys we have here aren't **** and you can only have 23 in the matchday squad. I mean, who of Bismarck (admittedly not his best game this Saturday) and Strauss should we bump for Burden? Juandre Kruger has been going well but so have many locks in SA (although we are facing a minor injury crisis in the position we have the depth in that position). Kockott might have a case but that stigma is stuck with him rightly or wrongly as long as he plays overseas and we actually have 2 good options locally if HM had the willingness to call them up but he tends to not give out too many Bok caps in a single game which is probably the best as continuity counts for a lot and he has shown over two years that he can manage to get the best out of certain players us fans might not have the most love for- and yes you are right the SA public falls out of love with a player very quickly if his form goes poor. That's just a result of good depth and high expectations IMO.

I am not at all saying guys who didn't perform here but are now performing in the Top 14 for whatever reason/s (regular playing time, possible better coaching, game plans that suit them better, just getting better with age etc.) aren't good enough, just that Top 14 is not South African (quite yet) and so for the most part form only a minor part of SA rugby if that makes any sense?

EDIT; I see my English has left me with the wine coming in so just ignore anything I said here as it just doesn't make any sense. I'll leave it up for the sake of amusement.
 
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EDIT; I see my English has left me with the wine coming in so just ignore anything I said here as it just doesn't make any sense. I'll leave it up for the sake of amusement.

Happens to me all the time!!! Sante!
 
nothing wrong with that post in its message. And whether drunk or sober at least when you post about your nation, it doesn't feel like I'm conversing with some obscure ultra-biased countryside peasant who assaults ppl online for absolutely no good reason ;)

All the points you make are valid of course. I'm just thinking out loud when I mention Burden's name along with the Springboks, I'm not really thinking of actually finding him a spot on the Boks. It's just in all hindsight, watching the Springboks' every test year in year out, and watching lots of Top 14, I've said I haven't watched a full match with Burden or Kockott while in S.A., but could see some guys join the Boks because they're that good. I'm not just opening my yapper for the sake of it (*wink*...) I'm just entertaining the live notion someone like Burden has been impressive enough to make a Tier 1 team. Like, I don't know S.A.'s situation past BdP or Strauss, but from what I know surely Burden would be a strong third choice.

I'm just looking at it from the most neutral perspective possible. I'm just hanging around here, watching Top 14 and int'l Rugby...I see this dude Burden comes in and rocks the Top 14 (which is not exactly an easy league...) and I say "fk, those Saffas kinda throw away quality trash, don't they..." thinking of another classic case like Kockott (no matter what he did before) or other examples we've discussed.
Reciprocally, Michalak played some fantastic Rugby when he was in South Africa, but that's different because he did play great ball for his clubs and country in France too.

Now the obvious interesting question is: what made a Craig Burden play so well in the Top 14 ? is it mental, or what ?? If you think it's a question of level, like Saffa SR teams are that good they throw their shiits away to Europe and those thrive there, you're wrong. Burden dominated in a few of those matches against teams like Racing Metro (full of Saffas btw), the Saracens, Leinster, Munster and Castres; and he's been super consistent and present everywhere.
Think, he was actually voted best hooker in the Top 14 by the fans of a popular website (although he came in very late, so benefited from sustaining the effort a lesser period and making a strong, fresh impression).
 

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