[2015 RWC] Pool A: England vs. Wales (26/09/2015)

[Kiwi_]

How crucial is Allen to Wales?

 

[ncurd]

How crucial is Allen to Wales?

He was easily their best back in the Uruguay game getting a hat-trick before his injury. His form relative to other backline players was immense, can't say for certain as other players were being rested but he'll probably be missed.

 

[Kiwi_]

He was easily their best back in the Uruguay game getting a hat-trick before his injury. His form relative to other backline players was immense, can't say for certain as other players were being rested but he'll probably be missed.

Yeah I saw that, I was gutted from him when he got injured. But in the bigger scheme of things, is he a regular starter/star player and is he world class etc?

 

[MojoPin]

How crucial is Allen to Wales?

Honestly, injuries permitting I'd say not at all. He shone in the Uruguay game but it was more of a finishing role than creating. He wouldn't be in a starting or bench position against England or Australia I don't think, even after that performance.

But in the bigger scheme of things, is he a regular starter/star player and is he world class etc?

Put simply, no. He's young with plenty of promise but not quite there yet. Definitely one to watch for the future but then so is Tyler Morgan, who has just replaced him. When all our players are fit he'd be fighting for fourth place out of all our centres, between him, Tyler Morgan and probably George North.

 

[dullonien]

He was easily their best back in the Uruguay game getting a hat-trick before his injury. His form relative to other backline players was immense, can't say for certain as other players were being rested but he'll probably be missed.

I wasn't all that impressed with Allen v Uruguay tbh. Yes he scored 3 tries, but that clouded the fact that otherwise he was sub-par. He made quite a few errors, and his passing was shocking on occasion.

 

[Steve67]

I would have to agree with you here. Wales are making too many silly errors (don't understand why), I have never had faith in Cuthbert, Priestland or even North for that matter. All make silly errors. My prediction is England to win by 12-15 points.

 

[SelimNiai]

I wasn't all that impressed with Allen v Uruguay tbh. Yes he scored 3 tries, but that clouded the fact that otherwise he was sub-par. He made quite a few errors, and his passing was shocking on occasion.

Exactly, to score all he had to do was not drop it.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Not surprised...Wales used to have the most dangerous back 3 in the NH but now I'm left crossing my fingers that Cuthbert doesn't make the squad. Very strange turnaround. By contrast England look very dangerous out wide, though I would select Nowell ahead of May, personally.

Yeah - to be clear I don't mean I don't rate the Wales back 3, (although there's no no doubt that Halfpenny Walker, and possibly Liam Williams(?) are all huge losses) but more that behind a (hopefully) stiffled midfield and a (hopefully) contained pack, they like any other team except perhaps Oz and NZ would struggle to influence a game.

 

[Every Time Ref]

My biggest worry is far and away the breakdown, especially if Wales decide to play Warburton and Tipuric together, along with Gethin. My smallest worry is the back three, from what I understand that's likely to be North (pure class), Cuthbert (arguably the worst player in Tier 1 international rugby ATM) and whoever the hell is still standing.

In the last 2 6N games we've kept Wales in games we should have dominated by more because we've given away too many penalties for Halfpenny to kick. Biggar is not Halfpenny but anyone thinking Biggar's goalkicking is a weakness is deluded. We will still need top discipline to win this game, and it won't be a walkover, injuries or not.

By the way, if any of the players I've mentioned aren't available please feel free to let me know, I genuinely can't keep up with all these Welsh injuries! Before the Uruguay game my Welsh mate was asked what he'd consider a good result, and he said "two injuries, 3 max".

Someone upthread mentioned Tipuric in the centres - is that a genuine possibility?

Feel really bad for Wales with all the injury woes. Hopefully they'll go out and play with no fear against their biggest rival.

That being said I can't see a Wales win. 5-10 point victory for an England side who runs at the centres hard.

Using who ... ? Barritt ... ? No power in the midfield was a major part of why we looked mediocre against Fiji IMO

Lancaster won't do that he might put George on the bench but he isn't going to drop Barritt entirely and promote Slade up, I'll be mightily shocked if Barritt is not starting.

Sorry Lancaster just sees something in Barritt that the rest of us can't.

True. And depressing.

 

[tompaton7]

Allen was sub-par. His distribution game is poor for a test centre. Was not impressed with him at all bar the tries he finished.

 

[valley commando]

How crucial is Allen to Wales?

Allen is not crucial this was probably the only game he would get a start in.

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He was easily their best back in the Uruguay game getting a hat-trick before his injury. His form relative to other backline players was immense, can't say for certain as other players were being rested but he'll probably be missed.

No he won't be missed, Uruguay was probably the only game he was going to start in, he was lucky to be in the right place to score on Sunday and was not nearly as good as our best back Scott Williams, also thought Davies and Amos were better than him as well, on the other hand he was better than Cuthbert and Priestland.

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My biggest worry is far and away the breakdown, especially if Wales decide to play Warburton and Tipuric together, along with Gethin. My smallest worry is the back three, from what I understand that's likely to be North (pure class), Cuthbert (arguably the worst player in Tier 1 international rugby ATM) and whoever the hell is still standing.

In the last 2 6N games we've kept Wales in games we should have dominated by more because we've given away too many penalties for Halfpenny to kick. Biggar is not Halfpenny but anyone thinking Biggar's goalkicking is a weakness is deluded. We will still need top discipline to win this game, and it won't be a walkover, injuries or not.

By the way, if any of the players I've mentioned aren't available please feel free to let me know, I genuinely can't keep up with all these Welsh injuries! Before the Uruguay game my Welsh mate was asked what he'd consider a good result, and he said "two injuries, 3 max".

Someone upthread mentioned Tipuric in the centres - is that a genuine possibility?



Using who ... ? Barritt ... ? No power in the midfield was a major part of why we looked mediocre against Fiji IMO



True. And depressing.

Tips can kick goals as well as be a possible centre should anymore injuries happen.
I will add that it will be a dark day for world rugby should Wales fail to qualify.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Courtney Lawes got turned over three times against Fiji...
I don't think that's acceptable for a pack member...

...why does everyone seem to prefer him to launchbury here :s

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Allen is not crucial this was probably the only game he would get a start in.

Tips can kick goals as well as be a possible centre should anymore injuries happen.
I will add that it will be a dark day for world rugby should Wales fail to qualify.

What does that even mean!?

 

[ncurd]

Courtney Lawes got turned over three times against Fiji...
I don't think that's acceptable for a pack member...

...why does everyone seem to prefer him to launchbury here :s

You're entirely right and Lawes should be dropped to the bench with the lineout has been fine with Parling's inclusion. Lancaster won't change it though winning teams rarely do.

What does that even mean!?

I find it best not to ask.

 

[valley commando]

A massive game and Wales have all sorts of injury issues going into this game which will make it hard for them to prepare properly.

England already have an advantage of an extra day so this is just going to compound Wales' problems.

Anyway enough about Wales. If I was SL my England team would be:

1. Joe Marler
2. Tom Youngs
3. Dan Cole
4. Joe Launchbury
5. Geoff Parling
6. James Haskell
7. Chris Robshaw
8. Ben Morgan
9. Richard Wiggelsworth
10. George Ford
11. Jonny May
12. Sam Burgess
13. Jonathan Joseph
14. Anthony Watson
15. Mike Brown

16. Rob Webber
17. Kieron Brooke's
18. Mako Vunipola
19. Courtney Lawes
20. Billy Vunipola
21. Ben Youngs
22. Owen Farrell
23. Henry Slade

2 changes to the XV and one to the bench.

I agree our scrum creaked against Fiji but I think it is mostly down to a lack of weight rather than anything more systematic.

For me Marler has been struggling with Youngs who isn't the best scrummager but I think with a bit more weight behind them in Launchbury & Haskell this will not be such a problem. Also just like to say they I thought, bar the scrum, Tom Youngs had a good game. He hit all but one of his line out jumpers and his ball carrying in the loose was excellent.

Tom Wood had an average game for me and what we lack in line out technician we gain in ball carrying & around dog in Haskell. This change is more for tactical reasons than anything else. My concern is the breakdown with Tipuric & Warburton sniffing around & this is another area where Haskell is better than Wood.

Tempting to get Billy Vunipola in there from the start for his last 20mins against Fiji but I think his impact off the bench is of more value. Also Morgan, after a quiet game, will be the better for another run out v Fiji and sure he will be even better v Wales.

I thought Ben Youngs had a poor night. After a few forgivable wayward passes early on his decision making was not good. He allowed the Fiji defensive set to trust in their drift because he did not threaten their fringe defence once. That is what he is best at.

If the game plan is to generate quick ball & get the ball into Ford's hands quickly then Wigglesworth is the scrum half to start. I've never been his biggest fan as he is on the slow side & not very dynamic but his box kicking is excellent and he has the most accurate and reliable pass of our 9s. I would bring on Youngs to threaten a tiring Welsh defence. His impact, like Vunipola brothers, is best from the bench.

It is a given that I've never been a fan of Barritt's but I understand why SL has stuck with him for the Fiji but after a really poor display I feel it is time to give Burgess his start.

Yes it is a risk but one I would take with the consideration that he knows the men either side of him very well. That midfield relationship is be a real advantage and because of this and Burgess's other more obvious attributes I would give him his first start.

Slade brings much needed flexibility when injury occurs and I will feel much more comfortable with him on the bench if we have an injury to a back three player.

I hope you are right and Burgess plays, I can't see him starting.

 

[Willodell100]

I hope you are right and Burgess plays, I can't see him starting.

Neither can I. Too much of a stretch for such a key game.

The only possible change to the XV will be at lock.

And possibly the bench but I do worry about the lack of back 3 cover on there if Burgess is there.

You could argue he rightly deserves a spot on the bench after his performance v Fiji but with an early injury to one of the back 3 or Joseph it means Barritt playing 13. That is not something I wish to see ever again!

 

[RedruthRFC]

Courtney Lawes got turned over three times against Fiji...
I don't think that's acceptable for a pack member...

...why does everyone seem to prefer him to launchbury here :s

I picked up on the same thing. The only reasons I can think of is Lawes' involvement in the lineout (although I'd think that Parling could take on Lawes' responsibilities) and Launchberry's form being so-so since his return.

What does that even mean!?

Rather a melodramatic turn of phrase, but you could make a case for whichever two of England, Australia, Wales and Fiji missing out being a dark day. Losing the host nation would be terrible for the profile of the tournament. Losing the PNC holders would reflect poorly on the strength of the global game, losing the Rugby Championship winners would weaken the talent pool left in the tournament and kill interest in a reasonable size TV market (in rugby terms). Losing Wales would also dilute the strength of competition left in the tournament.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Englands ongoing problem is that in a number of places our starters and subs are of equal value..
It always seems to be the case that the substitute plays better than the starter.

So although Morgan was perhaps the most disappointing performer this week, in the past he's been strong off the bench whilst Vunipola has struggled to have an impact
Care and Youngs is another obvious one - It's like the starting berth is cursed
And again with locks. Between Lawes, Attwood, launchbury and Parling, there's almost too much competition if possible.
Can somebody PLEASE nail down a starting spot

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I picked up on the same thing. The only reasons I can think of is Lawes' involvement in the lineout (although I'd think that Parling could take on Lawes' responsibilities) and Launchberry's form being so-so since his return.



Rather a melodramatic turn of phrase, but you could make a case for whichever two of England, Australia, Wales and Fiji missing out being a dark day. Losing the host nation would be terrible for the profile of the tournament. Losing the PNC holders would reflect poorly on the strength of the global game, losing the Rugby Championship winners would weaken the talent pool left in the tournament and kill interest in a reasonable size TV market (in rugby terms). Losing Wales would also dilute the strength of competition left in the tournament.

Your interpretation is fair - but I get the feeling Valley commando wouldn't consider it a dark day if England or Australia didn't get through!

 

[RedruthRFC]

You could argue he rightly deserves a spot on the bench after his performance v Fiji but with an early injury to one of the back 3 or Joseph it means Barritt playing 13. That is not something I wish to see ever again!

Well said, this is one of my pet hobby horses. Yes, a bench needs to offer impact, but surely it also needs to offer injury cover. Lancaster benches do a poor job of the latter meaning that an injury in the wrong position would necessitate a massive reshuffle. I can see the logic in Nowell on the bench, but I'm not convinced that he's considered as anything other than a winger given that it's ages since he's played full back and he's never played 13 in an international. That being the case, I think that Slade provides the bast cover.

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Your interpretation is fair - but I get the feeling Valley commando wouldn't consider it a dark day if England or Australia didn't get through!

If that's the case, I would suggest that the comment has nothing to do with "world rugby" and everything to do with his personal preferences.

 

[kesh]

Feel more comfortable after 60 minutes when they've changed the front row for quite a while now. Specially when Mako is on. It's not like Marler and Cole (especially) have been lightening things up in the loose with go forward, turning ball over and whatnot.

As above can only see Launchbury coming in.

 

[Peat]

Englands ongoing problem is that in a number of places our starters and subs are of equal value..
It always seems to be the case that the substitute plays better than the starter.

So although Morgan was perhaps the most disappointing performer this week, in the past he's been strong off the bench whilst Vunipola has struggled to have an impact
Care and Youngs is another obvious one - It's like the starting berth is cursed
And again with locks. Between Lawes, Attwood, launchbury and Parling, there's almost too much competition if possible.
Can somebody PLEASE nail down a starting spot

Is this actually a problem?

And given how much the game opens up towards the end, I think it stands to reason that subs have it easier.