[2015 RWC] Warm Up Match: Argentina vs South Africa (15/08/2015)

[The Jones Boy]

Pat Lambie is a class act, he's the real deal.
Ruan Pienaar is the nearly man.

 

[Horacito]

Guido Petti is 20 dammit, amazing.

 

[OhDannyBoy]

I'm not sure what to make of the boks.
I was a big fan of Heyneke Meyer, but I'm not so sure now. There is all the talent there, but the coaching and selections are terrible.

Matfield was a passenger for the most part...steadies the lineout a bit, but the boks lose so much in the tight and around the park it's scary. In contact he is knocked around.
Lood de Jager has played far better than him this year, and you can only hope Meyer selects the two youngsters (Lood and Eben) and lets the combination grow and flower.

I thought Marcel van der Merwe at tighthead went well, although it is easy to find sympathy for Vincent Koch after last weeks Romain Poite's scrum debacle, where Poite looked to be trying to end Kochs career. I'm not convinced by Malherbe. He is a steady scrummager, but is completely anonymous outside the scrum. Jannie Doep seemed to have picked up his game in the last two games after an indifferent patch in his career, so probably remains the number 1 tighthead.
In some quarters there was moaning at selecting Pieter Steph du Toit as flank cover, but people forget that is where he was playing when the Junior boks won their world ***le. I've always had the suspicion that he would be better used at flank. Either way, Alberts at least got some gametime, and it shows that the boks were missing our tradional style ball carrier.
Schalk Burger at 8 remains a quandry for me. He plays well in that he is everywhere, and puts hard yards in, but he is definitely not the same player he was in the collisions.

In the backline, Ruan Pienaar is terrible. His denied try was a case in point. Even as a kid I was trained to shift the ball into the touchline side hand when running along the touchline to the tryline. This is such a basic thing it is worrying. If he had done this schoolboy level task, he would have scored that try...the ball would not have been dislodged as it was. It is a classic example of exactly why kids are taught that. Pienaar, after a good fast service against the Wallabies, has reverted back into his "two steps then pass" mode again. This puts pressure on the whole backline. As mentioned by the commentators, he never snipes himself anymore, and so is predictable. Lastly, he shies away from contact, even when he is the only player there. That is a bad trait on a rugby pitch.
The problem is, no one has put their hand up. Well, Faf de Klerk from the Lions has, but Meyer refuses to select a scrumhalf that has the scrumhalf skills. Instead, he selects great athletes (but poor scrumhalves) like Cobus Reinach, all the while praying that Fourie du Preez, who has played no rugby this year, shows form when he finally makes it back from injury.
Lamby played well, but those overcooked kicks remain a concern. He has done this before at test level, and against better sides in a close match in a RWC knockout, those are crucial. I still think Pollard has the better running game by far, but anyway, at least there are two flyhalves competing.
De Allende and Kriel should not have been split up last week. That was ludicrous. Jean De Villiers should have come off the bench if they wanted to guage how he was. There are other very talented young centres in South Africa who have been ignored whilst Meyer wasted a precious year playing an over-the-hill Jean de Villiers and a right wing in JP Pietersen as his centre combination. Players like Jan Serfontein, Harold Vorster, Andre Esterhuisen, Lionel Mapoe, and S'bura Sithole could have been given time, whilst De Allende and Kriel could have been allowed to blossom. This was my first inkling of concern with Meyer, the was he mishandled the centre partnership, especially last year playing a variety of pl;ayers out of position at 13 and playing Jean de Villiers in every single game until he broke, with no other player been given a look in.
I thought Mvovo did well on the wing. There is no substitute for pace, so I'd like to see him get more gametime.
Willie le Roux is mercurial on attack, but I remain concerned about his defence. There is nobody else out there, because Meyer hasn't really picked anybody else, except for Kirchner.
Kirchner is awful. He is safe, but offers absolutely nothing on offence. If you want to beat the boks and Kirchner is playing, simply kick to him all day and you will win. The rare time he does run it up, he immediately looks around for an opposition player that he can sidestep into, so ending his run as soon as possible. He is the very antithesis of a basic rugby rule...run into space.

For what it is worth, my starting lineup would be:
15. Le Roux
14. Mvovo
13. Kriel
12. De Allende
11. Habana
10. Pollard
9. (who knows what form Fourie du Preez is in)
8. Vermeulen
7. Alberts
6. Louw
5. De Jager
4. Etzebeth
3. Du Plessis
2. Du Plessis
1. Mtawarira

More than enough talent to win the RWC, but with an archaic gameplan, and a coach who has frittered away his time and isn't even sure who his starting lineup will be, don't hold your breath. It's very disappointing.

 

[Sker]

Good post DannyBoy, I agree with you but I still have a bit of faith left in the coaching staff. Only a tiny bit mind you.

Definitely agree on Pienaar, we'll need to replace him. I think Lambie should be our first pick as well.

EDIT:

Does anyone else think that the writers at rugby365 watched a different game based on their player ratings? We were OK, we weren't really GREAT.

 

[The Jones Boy]

Yeah good post DB.
Meyer has got the best squad in the RWC but his starting team is still a mystery.

 

[OhDannyBoy]

Thanks TheJonesBoy and Sker.
Sker, I've been baffled by not just Rugby365 ratings, but also by News24. Some of their ratings are unfathomable.
I think the relief has been so great that they haven't noticed that it wasn't actually a great game by the boks. Passionate...yes, clinical, efficient, good gameplan...not really.

I rate Pat Lamby, but I can't have been the only one to have noticed that the two promising youngsters at centre didn't really get great attacking ball given to them, or a chance to shine. Even though the forwards went well and there was plenty of possession.
That, in my opinion, is a result of either/and Pienaars slow service, and Lambie either playing to a set gameplan/or not being as efficient as Pollard in getting his backs away.
Probably a combination of the two.
Again, and just to be fair and play the devils advocate, i think Pat Lambie is very talented, but he had front foot ball from a far better forwards effort, which Pollard didn't have the benefit of. I wonder how he would go in similar circumstances?
Another thing I noticed was the time it took to get ruck ball out. It is taking way too long, even if there were shenanigans in the rucks. Compared to the other test matches that day, it seemed to take ages.

 

[TRF_heineken]

@OhDannyBoy, I think you are being way too critical here.

I completely disagree about Victor Matfield. He made the second most tackles of all all the forwards for the Bokke in the game. He stole to balls at the lineout, and was instrumental in Mvovo's try. For a 38-year old he is still a very valuable asset.

I agree with you on Schalk. He's not the crash ball runner like he used to be.

As for the scrums. It's amazing to see the difference in a matter of 6 days between 2 teams. Yes Ayerza didn't play, but I think that was the plan all along with the SH ref in charge. Glenn Jackson, who was a fly half in his playing days, knows a thing or 2 about the scrums. I thought he handled that area pretty well.

Ruan Pienaar had an off day, I thought his clearance at ruck time was a bit slow and that missed try was just sloppy. But his kicking was very good. And his vision for Habana's try was amazing.

Damien De Allende was a bit quiet for me, but then again, the Argentina backline was so quick to shut down the space in the middle, that DDA had very little chances.

Lambie's kicking at goal was stellar. But his general kicking left a lot to be desired. 2 cross-kicks directly into touch, so high that our player on the wing couldn't even get fingertips on it. Then one kick over the deadball line, and one penalty kick not finding touch.

Zane Kirchner was great under the high ball, and it was good to see him run the ball back instead of just kicking it every damn time. I also thought his defense was way better than Willie Le Roux's.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

I've yet to watch the game. It'll be interesting watching with these comments above in mind but all in all it sounds like a lot of the things I expected;

- JdV not 100% and we are better without
- Pollard the future but Lambie the here and now for the RWC
- Kirchner still has his Kirchnerness
- It shows we missed Alberts (or at least one of Alberts or Vermeulen)

Though some of the other comments I've heard surprised me;
- Pienaar had a good game?
- MvdM was anonymous around the park but good in the scrum (sans Ayera though) which is the exact opposite of how I have him pegged
- Matfield was very much involved

 

[OhDannyBoy]

Heineken, I am not being overly critical of Matfield....simply honest. It's a no-brainer he should go the RWC, due to his steadying influence. The lineouts have gone better with him on the field. But I will stand by my contention: Matfield is a relative passenger, compared to Lood, in all other facets of play. Lood had basically Man-of-the-Match performances in the games he played this year. Matfield gets owned in contact these days, whether on attack or defence.
Of course he's a valuable addition to the overall squad, but barring the lineouts, he is simply not the best overall lock in SA in that position.
Looking through many rugby websites, I'm certainly in the majority with that view.

Having said that, I think (or hope) he does well at the RWC.

Other than that, we seem to be broadly in agreement.

My big, big concern at the moment is scrumhalf. Most of the other pieces in the backline are either in place, or shaping up to be....but scrumhalf is a headache.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Heineken, I am not being overly critical of Matfield....simply honest. It's a no-brainer he should go the RWC, due to his steadying influence. The lineouts have gone better with him on the field. But I will stand by my contention: Matfield is a relative passenger, compared to Lood, in all other facets of play. Lood had basically Man-of-the-Match performances in the games he played this year. Matfield gets owned in contact these days, whether on attack or defence.
Of course he's a valuable addition to the overall squad, but barring the lineouts, he is simply not the best overall lock in SA in that position.
Looking through many rugby websites, I'm certainly in the majority with that view.

Having said that, I think (or hope) he does well at the RWC.

Other than that, we seem to be broadly in agreement.

My big, big concern at the moment is scrumhalf. Most of the other pieces in the backline are either in place, or shaping up to be....but scrumhalf is a headache.

I'm not concerned about the scrumhalf position. If any of you saw Boots and All the past couple of weeks, you would have seen that Fourie Du Preez is NOT injured, and has been training with the team the past 2 weeks or so, even with the contact sessions. And IF Ruan or Cobus gets injured now, we have 2 guys playing brilliantly in the Currie Cup, Francois Hougaard and Faf De Klerk.

I just think that we can't compare Lood with Victor. They are completely different locks. Lood is more like Etzebeth, and lacks the finesse at times. Victor has never been good at the contact situations, but he does know how to put others in space and do offloads.

 

[austingtir]

Matfield will be shown up against a team like Argentina every time guys. Their forwards are just ridiculously abrasive when they are in the right mood and Matfield is just to old for that carry on. Other than that I dont see the problem with him as you will rarely come up against forward packs like Argentinas.

I was well impressed with De jager in the last game I saw him play he looks like a great player.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

I'm not concerned about the scrumhalf position in that, yes, we have players in fine form but I am concerned about the scrumhalf position in that we aren't fielding those players and don't seem to be in any rush to do so.

 

[TobesHodges]

I'm not concerned about the scrumhalf position in that, yes, we have players in fine form but I am concerned about the scrumhalf position in that we aren't fielding those players and don't seem to be in any rush to do so.

Just watched the match, God Pinnaer is slow at the breakdown, you would get so much more out of your pack playing De Klerk, it completely bewilders me why HM isn't, sometimes you have to take a risk on a special player, look at NZ with Scudder.. HM needs to be bold and has to slightly deviate from doing just what he knows.. Though it's probably to late now.

 

[ShonH]

Just watched the match, God Pinnaer is slow at the breakdown, you would get so much more out of your pack playing De Klerk, it completely bewilders me why HM isn't, sometimes you have to take a risk on a special player, look at NZ with Scudder.. HM needs to be bold and has to slightly deviate from doing just what he knows.. Though it's probably to late now.

It is astonishing that DeKlerk is not the #9. Every week confirms my belief more.

 

[OhDannyBoy]

Just watched the match, God Pinnaer is slow at the breakdown, you would get so much more out of your pack playing De Klerk, it completely bewilders me why HM isn't, sometimes you have to take a risk on a special player, look at NZ with Scudder.. HM needs to be bold and has to slightly deviate from doing just what he knows.. Though it's probably to late now.

This is what I've been saying.
Pienaar puts the entire backline under pressure and slows up things terribly.

 

[sharkfan]

What happened to the Pienaar that use to play for the Sharks? That oke was very good on the attack, fast and unpredictable. He took sniping breaks when the opposition least expected it and could sidestep his way past fullbacks, just ask Mark Gerrard. At one stage he was likened to Honiball, being described as 'Lem2'

Now he as very slow and predictable, only passing and kicking the whole time.There's nothing new, no unpredictability on attack and taking gaps, running down the blind side etc.