[2015 Six Nations] Italy vs Ireland (Round 1)

[Leonormous Boozer]

At start I agree if Sexton out we are screwed but nothing petty about my answer/reply.

Regards Keatley. If you watched Munster you'd see yes Keatley has ran back line better and we've more back play tries under him than JJ. And he's very good at vocally communicating and is more of a 10 than Madigan at this moment. JJ hasn't played whole lot at 12 so I'd disagree. It's hard to say JJ is all out better when like Madigan at 10 in previous times when introduced its easy look more impact against tired legs. He's a very skilful player but not complete 10. JJ has cost us few games as well.

If your any good so instead of saying my faults I've asked questions yet your still afraid/unable to answer. So maybe answer with facts. So and have no misinterpretation.
Or how was I wrong. Add in too how Madigan an international 10 so and Keatley not?

Haha! I'm able to answer but your questions perfectly but you continue to change them so I got bored, I answered your question as to how Madigan was an international class 10 and your reply was to ask for facts to prove he was an international starter?!!! There's also a case of you deciding to read what you want from my posts here as well, I never said anything about JJ at 10. Anyway, I'm putting this topic aside after this, my view is clear and it's been "argued" to death. Joe Schmidt disagreeing probably suggests I'm wrong, most likely not for the reasons we've argued because that man has forgotten more about rugby than we'll ever know. I think that come the World Cup, in the horrible scenario Sexton can't play, Madigan would be our 10 so this selection doesn't make sense to me.

 

[munstermuffin]

Haha! I'm able to answer but your questions perfectly but you continue to change them so I got bored, I answered your question as to how Madigan was an international class 10 and your reply was to ask for facts to prove he was an international starter?!!! There's also a case of you deciding to read what you want from my posts here as well, I never said anything about JJ at 10. Anyway, I'm putting this topic aside after this, my view is clear and it's been "argued" to death. Joe Schmidt disagreeing probably suggests I'm wrong, most likely not for the reasons we've argued because that man has forgotten more about rugby than we'll ever know. I think that come the World Cup, in the horrible scenario Sexton can't play, Madigan would be our 10 so this selection doesn't make sense to me.

Then why don't you answer????? Where is the facts he's an international 10 you can just say because he's started a 6Nations game and then change it.

No you never mentioned JJ only to say Munster backs only look good when he's 10 and I said that's false.
But ok your afraid to answer. I'll post them again here just in case you man up

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For Cmac as he wouldn't answer previous and yet calls me "stupid" was it earlier or make me say petty when I said Keatley was international 10 now for exact reasons he said Madigan was

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1. I'll ask again WHERE has he proven to be an international starting 10. Yes he's done well in cameos off bench which I've blatantly noted was his strong point. But again I asked as a starter. Also, and I don't mean this directed at Madigan, just because you have caps doesn't mean you are international class.

2. I won't get in to it regards Murphy and Kearney but where's the evidence had Zebo and TOD been there that anything would be different?
You said my criticism was clearly wrong and unjust and proven wrong.
How as I had fair points, right or wrong they were valid for debate.
So again what exactly was clear and unjust. Also would you say Keith Earls and Geordan Murphy were way better than Shane Horgan? Or in 09 O'Leary was way better than Reddan as they all had Grand Slams. And that's what your basing your thoughts on yes.

3. Kicking hasn't been great from Madigan in last few games. Every fan, journalist, pundit and analyst seem to agree so maybe you can show examples. As I said I'm not saying he can't kick just its not a strength of his by long shot. His goal kicking is but not his game management or tactical kicking. Hence him always being called a maverick and off the cuff player. Which is why he in international and world class off the bench.

4. Yes Schmidt had most of first XV training with eyes on Italy even on Friday they put in a shift but that still doesn't answer question. So I'm sure you can give me better here.

5. But Madigan is below average. So is Average now better than less than average now. Yes so as I said Keatley getting nod doesn't mean he's on form more Madigan isn't.

6. Surely you are after answering everything I'm saying in that. What good is a 10 starting when he's not communicating with team and bringing centres in to it. Regardless of how many games Madigan has played at 10 fact is it is what it is now. And as you say Schmidt knows what to do to get a performance out of him. If he selects him it's a tight call either way. But will Schmidt make that gamble?

 

[Amiga500]

I think that come the World Cup, in the horrible scenario Sexton can't play, Madigan would be our 10 so this selection doesn't make sense to me.

Why?

 

[munstermuffin]

Keatley has played 3 caps but 197mins at 10 for Ireland.
Madigan has played (in 13 caps) 264 mins for Ireland. Of that I can see roughly 165mins if even were at 10 over 3 years. And against top class opposition - France 19 mins is all I have. Just to help you with your answers on that.
He's a fabulous player but is he a proven 10?

Paddy Jackson is the 2nd best 10 in Ireland and more experienced. When he's on form Jackson is back up for RWC

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

12 =/= 10

Well I'm not one of them inferior women folk so here it goes... Christ wept.

1. Example of you changing the question, the topic was whether he was an international class 10, not a starter and I never claimed anything other than the fact he has played a role in the high majority of Ireland's games since the Summer of 2013 at 10, never looking out of place once, therefore he's an international class 10.

2. Irrelevant at the time and even more so at this point.

3. You argued that despite many analysts, pundits and journos stating Zebo couldn't tackle was a stereotype and they die hard, quite similar here.

4. Irrelevant at this point but my original point was Schmidt picked the Wolfhounds but didn't coach them as a team.

5. I believe, from memory, you stated Keatley has been average at best?! If your best is average your average is below average. And Mads hasn't been below average, his last game for Leinster at 10 started with the scrappiest first half of rugby you're likely to see from all players and finished with Madigan and Conan dragging Leinster kicking and screaming to a comfortable win.

6. Keatley can't bring centres into a game either and Schmidt sides are so well drilled communication is much less of a factor. The main reason for Madigan playing his best rugby of his career at 10 under Schmidt.

I'm not going to reply to any other Keatley v Madigan talk, this is my final statement so don't bother calling me out again because it will be ignored. Can we be friends again?!!!

 

[munstermuffin]

12 =/= 10

Well I'm not one of them inferior women folk so here it goes... Christ wept.

1. Example of you changing the question, the topic was whether he was an international class 10, not a starter and I never claimed anything other than the fact he has played a role in the high majority of Ireland's games since the Summer of 2013 at 10, never looking out of place once, therefore he's an international class 10.

2. Irrelevant at the time and even more so at this point.

3. You argued that despite many analysts, pundits and journos stating Zebo couldn't tackle was a stereotype and they die hard, quite similar here.

4. Irrelevant at this point but my original point was Schmidt picked the Wolfhounds but didn't coach them as a team.

5. I believe, from memory, you stated Keatley has been average at best?! If your best is average your average is below average. And Mads hasn't been below average, his last game for Leinster at 10 started with the scrappiest first half of rugby you're likely to see from all players and finished with Madigan and Conan dragging Leinster kicking and screaming to a comfortable win.

6. Keatley can't bring centres into a game either and Schmidt sides are so well drilled communication is much less of a factor. The main reason for Madigan playing his best rugby of his career at 10 under Schmidt.

I'm not going to reply to any other Keatley v Madigan talk, this is my final statement so don't bother calling me out again because it will be ignored. Can we be friends again?!!!

Well at the top I will start by saying yes 12 isn't a 10 which is what I'm pointing out.

1. Where has Madigan played a high amout of rugby against decent opposition at 10 on international stage? Again you can't answer can you? Where is clear viewing he's by far the better 10 as you say and that it's a mistake starting Keatley. You still can't answer.

2. Not irrelevant as I stated clearly in reference to your point but again you shy away. So 2 down 2 you can't answer lets try 3.

3. I backed up my Zebo analysis with stats and can show examples. I've asked you to do same regards Madigan and well I think only stuff I got was BG* or Feic in other thread saying Madigan can do alot of thing but he's not a great kicker. I'd agree with them but again no answer so thats 3 from 3 you can't answer unless you can show few games he's kicked masterfully. His goal kicking is superb I will add I'm not disputing that.

4. My point was Schmidt had influence over Madigan that week and Madigan was told try kick tacticfully (as was said today) and he failed badly there. Again I'm only refferring to his tacticful kicking. So again it has point.

5. I stated Keatley's recent form has been average yes. But Madigan hasn't got games at 10 only drips and drabs and none in high profile games to really say he's been equal never mind better.

6. But Keatley can bring in centres to a game. Can he do it as well as Madigan. Probably not as Madigan is probably stronger in this area. But at times Madigan goes off the script doing his own thing which in my opinion helps him be a great player and is a bigger asset against tiring legs. But in my eyes Keatley is clearly the better structured 10 for Schmidts plan.

I'm not falling out with you just simply showing that Keatley isn't the worst 10 as your describing, I'm not saying he is best either but it's very tight. And I'm not saying it as a Munster vs Leinster thing either. If I were you know my views on Jordi but I take it as face value and said I won't argue on him starting. If I were picking team I'd have TOD with SOB or POM at 6 and other at 8. And that's my Munster eyes spaeking but I admit I've watched Leinster and Jordi has done well so can understand his place.

Also Boss- I've commented WTF etc but he did outplay Marmion and more worryingly as was said to me - Marmion has never played well under Schmidt and doesn't seem comfortable with Ireland. That's no reflection on coaching by the way I just hope he can bring his game to next level.

 

[BasqueBete]

Who gives a ****, you ain't winning the six nations ...and sorry to upset your play time, but u ain't winning the World Cup either, perhaps the local priest can soothe your disappointment..

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Well at the top I will start by saying yes 12 isn't a 10 which is what I'm pointing out.

1. Where has Madigan played a high amout of rugby against decent opposition at 10 on international stage? Again you can't answer can you? Where is clear viewing he's by far the better 10 as you say and that it's a mistake starting Keatley. You still can't answer.

2. Not irrelevant as I stated clearly in reference to your point but again you shy away. So 2 down 2 you can't answer lets try 3.

3. I backed up my Zebo analysis with stats and can show examples. I've asked you to do same regards Madigan and well I think only stuff I got was BG* or Feic in other thread saying Madigan can do alot of thing but he's not a great kicker. I'd agree with them but again no answer so thats 3 from 3 you can't answer unless you can show few games he's kicked masterfully. His goal kicking is superb I will add I'm not disputing that.

4. My point was Schmidt had influence over Madigan that week and Madigan was told try kick tacticfully (as was said today) and he failed badly there. Again I'm only refferring to his tacticful kicking. So again it has point.

5. I stated Keatley's recent form has been average yes. But Madigan hasn't got games at 10 only drips and drabs and none in high profile games to really say he's been equal never mind better.

6. But Keatley can bring in centres to a game. Can he do it as well as Madigan. Probably not as Madigan is probably stronger in this area. But at times Madigan goes off the script doing his own thing which in my opinion helps him be a great player and is a bigger asset against tiring legs. But in my eyes Keatley is clearly the better structured 10 for Schmidts plan.

I'm not falling out with you just simply showing that Keatley isn't the worst 10 as your describing, I'm not saying he is best either but it's very tight. And I'm not saying it as a Munster vs Leinster thing either. If I were you know my views on Jordi but I take it as face value and said I won't argue on him starting. If I were picking team I'd have TOD with SOB or POM at 6 and other at 8. And that's my Munster eyes spaeking but I admit I've watched Leinster and Jordi has done well so can understand his place.

Also Boss- I've commented WTF etc but he did outplay Marmion and more worryingly as was said to me - Marmion has never played well under Schmidt and doesn't seem comfortable with Ireland. That's no reflection on coaching by the way I just hope he can bring his game to next level.

Its time to agree to disagree here. I said calling me out not falling out, this isn't a soap!

what's your take on Zebo ahead of Earls/Fitz? I think both, particularly the former on the wing, bring more to the table. It's a clear indication that the kick chase will continue to be the be all and end all of the side.

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Well at the top I will start by saying yes 12 isn't a 10 which is what I'm pointing out.

1. Where has Madigan played a high amout of rugby against decent opposition at 10 on international stage? Again you can't answer can you? Where is clear viewing he's by far the better 10 as you say and that it's a mistake starting Keatley. You still can't answer.

2. Not irrelevant as I stated clearly in reference to your point but again you shy away. So 2 down 2 you can't answer lets try 3.

3. I backed up my Zebo analysis with stats and can show examples. I've asked you to do same regards Madigan and well I think only stuff I got was BG* or Feic in other thread saying Madigan can do alot of thing but he's not a great kicker. I'd agree with them but again no answer so thats 3 from 3 you can't answer unless you can show few games he's kicked masterfully. His goal kicking is superb I will add I'm not disputing that.

4. My point was Schmidt had influence over Madigan that week and Madigan was told try kick tacticfully (as was said today) and he failed badly there. Again I'm only refferring to his tacticful kicking. So again it has point.

5. I stated Keatley's recent form has been average yes. But Madigan hasn't got games at 10 only drips and drabs and none in high profile games to really say he's been equal never mind better.

6. But Keatley can bring in centres to a game. Can he do it as well as Madigan. Probably not as Madigan is probably stronger in this area. But at times Madigan goes off the script doing his own thing which in my opinion helps him be a great player and is a bigger asset against tiring legs. But in my eyes Keatley is clearly the better structured 10 for Schmidts plan.

I'm not falling out with you just simply showing that Keatley isn't the worst 10 as your describing, I'm not saying he is best either but it's very tight. And I'm not saying it as a Munster vs Leinster thing either. If I were you know my views on Jordi but I take it as face value and said I won't argue on him starting. If I were picking team I'd have TOD with SOB or POM at 6 and other at 8. And that's my Munster eyes spaeking but I admit I've watched Leinster and Jordi has done well so can understand his place.

Also Boss- I've commented WTF etc but he did outplay Marmion and more worryingly as was said to me - Marmion has never played well under Schmidt and doesn't seem comfortable with Ireland. That's no reflection on coaching by the way I just hope he can bring his game to next level.

Its time to agree to disagree here. I said calling me out not falling out, this isn't a soap!

what's your take on Zebo ahead of Earls/Fitz? I think both, particularly the former on the wing, bring more to the table. It's a clear indication that the kick chase will continue to be the be all and end all of the side.

 

[Groundhog]

Who gives a ****, you ain't winning the six nations ...and sorry to upset your play time, but u ain't winning the World Cup either, perhaps the local priest can soothe your disappointment..

I ****ing love this guy! Well my boy, seeing you is like getting my first armpit hair all over again.

 

[profitius]

Who gives a ****, you ain't winning the six nations ...and sorry to upset your play time, but u ain't winning the World Cup either, perhaps the local priest can soothe your disappointment..

Last year must have been very painful for this fella lol

 

[munstermuffin]

Its time to agree to disagree here. I said calling me out not falling out, this isn't a soap!

what's your take on Zebo ahead of Earls/Fitz? I think both, particularly the former on the wing, bring more to the table. It's a clear indication that the kick chase will continue to be the be all and end all of the side.

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Its time to agree to disagree here. I said calling me out not falling out, this isn't a soap!

what's your take on Zebo ahead of Earls/Fitz? I think both, particularly the former on the wing, bring more to the table. It's a clear indication that the kick chase will continue to be the be all and end all of the side.

Regards Zebo. I think if people watch him he does bring an awful lot to the team and well facts are he scores alot more than Fitz from wing and Earls hasn't earned his spot yet. Also it's hard to say as Luke has been playing most of his ball since returning at 13 and rumbling I hear from people inside Leinster as well as Ireland are he wants to be a 13. And I can say he should be 13. He's playing great rugby and well in sticking with my belief of position swapping etc. Payne has only started playing well again at 15. His assets are in open field not 13.
So I think Zebo deserves to be there at moment on merit but he will also know he can't slip back in to bad habits as competition is red hot. But again the 3 have all been brilliant since returning but Zebo is only 1 who's being doing it on wing and took his chance in AI's. I personally think Luke Fitz is a better centre now and well has rebuilt his body for there.

 

[Jockstap]

Who gives a ****, you ain't winning the six nations ...and sorry to upset your play time, but u ain't winning the World Cup either, perhaps the local priest can soothe your disappointment..

LOL you're so silly

Good team but I'm worried about our back row, Murphy is a good player and has a big engine but the guy simply doesn't have the physical attributes for an international 8. Also SOB admitted last week that he blew up after 20 minutes, combine this with the fact that th Italians have a VERY good backrow we could be in trouble at the breakdown.

 

[Groundhog]

Who gives a ****, you ain't winning the six nations ...and sorry to upset your play time, but u ain't winning the World Cup either, perhaps the local priest can soothe your disappointment..

 

[munstermuffin]

LOL you're so silly

Good team but I'm worried about our back row, Murphy is a good player and has a big engine but the guy simply doesn't have the physical attributes for an international 8. Also SOB admitted last week that he blew up after 20 minutes, combine this with the fact that th Italians have a VERY good backrow we could be in trouble at the breakdown.

It may be possible that he has a role per say. People slated POM because he wasn't making x amount of tackles before but his role was to be like a mix of 6 and 7. It was clear to see reason he wasn't making as many was because he was being the an getting in on top straight after a tackle. I'm sure Jordi wll be ok at base of scrum and well rest is going to be contributed out as roles more than traditional 6 7 and 8.
Regards fitness I agree with you but in Henderson and TOD we have 2 guys who can come on and keep the battle going.

 

[Peat]

Murphy will be given a role to play suiting his abilities but to me, having Heaslip, or Ruddock, or Henry - or Henderson - and a bit of a rejig if needed would result in more talent being on the pitch. I don't think he's going to let anyone down but he's not a stand-out international, not yet at any rate.

 

[munstermuffin]

Murphy will be given a role to play suiting his abilities but to me, having Heaslip, or Ruddock, or Henry - or Henderson - and a bit of a rejig if needed would result in more talent being on the pitch. I don't think he's going to let anyone down but he's not a stand-out international, not yet at any rate.

Agree with all this. But unfortunately we don't have first 3 and Henderson is only back so needed for impact as well as covering lock

 

[bw245]

Murphy will be given a role to play suiting his abilities but to me, having Heaslip, or Ruddock, or Henry - or Henderson - and a bit of a rejig if needed would result in more talent being on the pitch. I don't think he's going to let anyone down but he's not a stand-out international, not yet at any rate.

Thankfully this set up is just for Italy. I'm not underestimating them, because they're going to be very tough, but it would have been worse to have this sort of set up with Wales or England. Murphy will be fine, and will be guided by those leaders around him in the back row.

 

[Peat]

Well yeah, agree with both of those statements.

 

[TheSaffycen]

Who has the best pack in the 6 nations if everyone is fit ? I would go Ireland when you have
1.Healy 2.Best 3.Moore 4.Toner 5.O'Connell 6.POM 7.SOB 8.Heaslip
That is a pack that can win a world cup with Schmidt in charge. Even Italy with their legendary status with packs can't compete and I think Ireland will win by 15 in Rome.

 

[big ginger 8]

I ****ing love this guy! Well my boy, seeing you is like getting my first armpit hair all over again.

That's a big week for you then!

This was named a while ago.

15. Andrea Masi
14. Leonardo Sarto
13. Michele Campagnaro
12. Luca Morisi
11. Luke McLean
10. Kelly Haimona
9. Edoardo Gori
1. Matias Aguero
2. Leonardo Ghiraldini
3. Martin Castrogiovanni
4. Josh Furno
5. George Biagi
6. Alessandro Zanni
7. Francesco Minto
8. Sergio Parisse (c)
Replacements:
16. Andrea Manici
17. Alberto De Marchi
18. Dario Chistolini
19. Marco Fuser
20. Robert Barbini
21. Guglielmo Palazzani
22. Tommaso Allan
23. Giovanbattista Venditti

For those who don't know Italy may have actually found an alright outhalf who's also listed as 107kg.