[2016 RBS Six Nations] Round 4: England vs. Wales (12/03/2016)

[Lé Ddanno]

Both points can be sympathised with however where do your draw the line, is a taller player calling a short player small in a certain offensive way a remark he should be sighted for perhaps the shorter man would be equally offended as someone on the receiving end of so called racial slur or is that acceptable because it isn't deemed racist?

Get within 10 metres of that camp, scream 'alright gypsy boy' and see what happens.

Actually, don't. But please go away anyway and accept the fact Marler will and should be banned.

 

[j'nuh]

Genuine question then, and not just aimed at you at all The5th...

Is using Pom, Paddy, Sweatie, Saes any different to this when being used with malice?

Sometimes, it depends on the context.

Offensive language doesn't inherently harm people in the way e.g. physical attacks do. Physically harming someone because of their race is inherently racist, regardless of the races of victim and aggressor. There isn't a great deal of context that can explain it away as being anything other than racism. Language isn't as tangibly harmful; the same word or phrase can be both empowering and offensive dependent on a variety of factors. It's like swearing. Hard to define, but you know it when you see/hear it.

I think there is at least a good starting point for determining when language is offensive though. Where the language can be perceived to be divisive, contributing to an "us and them" ideology, I would class that as offensive. White people have an inherent "belonging" to the U.K., so it makes it hard to make them feel like an outsider within the U.K. Pom is so weakly offensive, even in Australia, because anti-British feelings are so exceptional in countries such as Australia.

Take being English in Wales. If someone points it out on the streets, it's hardly going to make me feel put out. If I walk into a deeply Welsh country pub, dragons everywhere, only leek-based dishes on the menu, 30 burly Welsh men shouting "Gwlad...!", dartboard with darts through Martin Johnson's face, everyone eyeballing me as I order my drink, bartender tells me "we don't take kindly...", I may then perceive the language to be racist!

 

[Jimbo87]

Well I think we can all agree that racism is wrong, correct? So as Marler made a racist remark he should be banned (and yes, Roma/Gypsy is a race https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romani_people albeit I'm referencing wikipedia if you actually read it and look at the sources you will see it to be true).

General insults, as far as I can tell, attacking the person as opposed to a larger group of people or a community are for the referee to judge. Sadly it's impossible to be objective about a person's feelings so you can't tell them if they should be offended or not, but I believe there is a difference to attacking the individual e.g. on the basis of height and attacking someone based on their heritage/community.[/QUOTE

I in no way condone racism clearly it is just wrong but I do think there are different degrees of it and I don't think comparing calling someone a gypsy boy is comparable to a black boy, it simply isn't for reasons I have already pointed out

 

[Lé Ddanno]

It doesn't belong on the international pitch, in front of (and clearly heard by) several million people. I like Marler's personality and ability and we'll surely miss him at the Stade, but a ban is needed

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Get within 10 metres of that camp, scream 'alright gypsy boy' and see what happens.

There's one in my village atm, we get them through three or four times a year

 

[The Jones Boy]

Don't know about you but my eyes are near my nose.

Not the tip, not possible at that angle and not possible at that speed.
It's clutching at straws and there was nothing in it regarding eye gouging.

If you are gouging someones eyes then you need to, by definition, stick your fingers into the socket.
Clipping him on the nose, particularly when he's prone, is not on, it's a cheap shot , yellow card, but the way some of you are carrying on you'd think it was a nailed on case of eye gouging.
It was nothing of the sort.
The idiot commentator got it completely wrong and so has anyone who believed him.

Regarding Marler's comment about being a gypsy boy.
This sort of throw away comment to get opposing players riled has been part and parcel of the game since it began. However times have changed and people are moving on from casting racist remarks around for effect.
He should get a rebuke and a mark on his record and move on.
In cases like this it's not so much the act itself, but how it can be perceived by parents and their kids.

Both of these cases highlight the importance of keeping it clean across the board in how you play and how you say anything while under the intense scrutiny that comes with being in the international spotlight.
Everybody is a role model.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Not the tip, not possible at that angle and not possible at that speed.
It's clutching at straws and there was nothing in it regarding eye gouging.

If you are gouging someones eyes then you need to, by definition, stick your fingers into the socket.
Clipping him on the nose, particularly when he's prone, is not on, it's a cheap shot , yellow card, but the way some of you are carrying on you'd think it was a nailed on case of eye gouging.
It was nothing of the sort.
The idiot commentator got it completely wrong and so has anyone who believed him.

Regarding Marler's comment about being a gypsy boy.
This sort of throw away comment to get opposing players riled has been part and parcel of the game since it began. However times have changed and people are moving on from casting racist remarks around for effect.
He should get a rebuke and a mark on his record and move on.
In cases like this it's not so much the act itself, but how it can be perceived by parents and their kids.

Both of these cases highlight the importance of keeping it clean across the board in how you play and how you say anything while under the intense scrutiny that comes with being in the international spotlight.
Everybody is a role model.

That's all well and good apart from the fact Ashton got 10 weeks for less because his hands were in the face area. It's a matter of consistency and a precedent has already been set. There is no way Ashton could get penalised as he did but Francis get nothing.

Also how are Marler's comments any worse than others saying "everyone hates the English"? That has been said by Welsh, Scots and French to the media in the last few years. Don't see how Gypsy boy isn't ok but saying everyone hates the English is.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

At least 3ft from the eyes, no case to answer, like!

 

[dullonien]

I was thinking today, has any Welsh player developed their attacking play under the Gatland regime? To me, there are plenty of players who have gotten a lot worse. Hook was viewed as one of the most gifted players in world rugby at the beginning of the Gatland era, yet slowly drifted away. Halfpenny first made an impact as an exciting running winger, but is now viewed mostly as a dependable, kicking fullback. Even the likes of North, Jon Davies and Liam Williams had far stronger running games when they first burst onto the scene, and whilst Liam and Davies are both still exciting players, it feels like both use the boot far more than they used to. Even Faletau has become less exciting, first making his name with the Dragons as an 8 who made lung busting 40m breaks. Cuthbert started well, but has gotten progressively worse.

It feels like we need a constant stream of new exciting players who play instinctive rugby before their creativity is sucked from them.

Maybe I'm just being overly pessimistic atm after the dreadful attacking displays of late. But the more I think about it, the more it grates, and the more worried I get. Howley is obviously a key figure here as well, I do think he has a lot to answer for.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

I was thinking today, has any Welsh player developed their attacking play under the Gatland regime? To me, there are plenty of players who have gotten a lot worse. Hook was viewed as one of the most gifted players in world rugby at the beginning of the Gatland era, yet slowly drifted away. Halfpenny first made an impact as an exciting running winger, but is now viewed mostly as a dependable, kicking fullback. Even the likes of North, Jon Davies and Liam Williams had far stronger running games when they first burst onto the scene, and whilst Liam and Davies are both still exciting players, it feels like both use the boot far more than they used to. Even Faletau has become less exciting, first making his name with the Dragons as an 8 who made lung busting 40m breaks. Cuthbert started well, but has gotten progressively worse.

It feels like we need a constant stream of new exciting players who play instinctive rugby before their creativity is sucked from them.

Maybe I'm just being overly pessimistic atm after the dreadful attacking displays of late. But the more I think about it, the more it grates, and the more worried I get. Howley is obviously a key figure here as well, I do think he has a lot to answer for.

You forgot to mention the great orange one, god of rugby incarnate and so good the likes of BOD and Nonu could only dream of licking his boots. None other than the fantastic Gavin Henson of tier 2 Bristol.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Also how are Marler's comments any worse than others saying "everyone hates the English"? That has been said by Welsh, Scots and French to the media in the last few years. Don't see how Gypsy boy isn't ok but saying everyone hates the English is.

I don't know whether you don't understand the difference between ethnicity and nationality or are just very precious. Had Marler said Welsh boy there's be no case to answer, the fact he's bringing Lee's ethnicity into it in what must be assumed to be in a derogatory fashion is where the trouble begins.

I think it's hard for a lot here, not saying you, to grasp the concept of the insult because it's rare for white people, which Im going to take a shot in the dark and assume most of us here are white, to be in an ethnic minority or even consider their own ethnicity and therefore they don't equate calling Lee a Gypsy to calling someone black boy or something like that. Calling Lee a gypsy may be racist in itself, I'm not sure about the UK but calling a traveler anything but a traveler over here can get you in trouble, they certainly don't accept being called gypsies in Ireland.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

I don't know whether you don't understand the difference between ethnicity and nationality or are just very precious. Had Marler said Welsh boy there's be no case to answer, the fact he's bringing Lee's ethnicity into it in what must be assumed to be in a derogatory fashion is where the trouble begins.

I think it's hard for a lot here, not saying you, to grasp the concept of the insult because it's rare for white people, which Im going to take a shot in the dark and assume most of us here are white, to be in an ethnic minority or even consider their own ethnicity and therefore they don't equate calling Lee a Gypsy to calling someone black boy or something like that. Calling Lee a gypsy may be racist in itself, I'm not sure about the UK but calling a traveler anything but a traveler over here can get you in trouble, they certainly don't accept being called gypsies in Ireland.

Notice the pharse is "Everyone HATES the English". It's not just saying "English" it is saying "hates the English". Also how is making a derogatory comment about someones ethnicity any worse than their nationality? The point wasn't that it was ok to say gypsy boy, the point was why is it ok to say "Everyone hates the English" openly to the media if we are trying to clamp down on such attitudes? I've seen some incredibly vile stuff spewed about the English and it really is a case of double standards.

Marler was in the wrong and clearly meant it to be derogatory and should be punished accordingly. How if Lee has self-identified himself as gypsy using that exact word, he cannot really get too angry at someone calling him by what he has called himself.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Notice the pharse is "Everyone HATES the English". It's not just saying "English" it is saying "hates the English". Also how is making a derogatory comment about someones ethnicity any worse than their nationality? The point wasn't that it was ok to say gypsy boy, the point was why is it ok to say "Everyone hates the English" openly to the media if we are trying to clamp down on such attitudes? I've seen some incredibly vile stuff spewed about the English and it really is a case of double standards.

Marler was in the wrong and clearly meant it to be derogatory and should be punished accordingly. How if Lee has self-identified himself as gypsy using that exact word, he cannot really get too angry at someone calling him by what he has called himself.

It's not at all the same, those comments are restrained to sports and sports only never has this comment been made and then added to with a load of stereotypes and reasons why they hate English culture but saying everyone hates the English and only meaning the English rugby team is only a slight exaggeration on the truth.

Nationality and ethnicities are different too, getting called an Irish or English ******* isn't upsetting, it's not really exclusive or anything like that and you really have to get into stereotypes and slurs to get offensive here, stuff like race, religion and sexual orientation are different.

Wasn't aware of Lee saying that, I was basing it off the community over here.

 

[Lé Ddanno]

Holy Zombie Jaheebus. If you made that then I might love you.

 

[Tony Manx]

Well back to the game.

After having taken loads of banter from all the England supporters in the pub for 60 minutes, it all went very quiet towards the end! It would have been England's worst nightmare to get burgled yet again by Wales in Twickenham. It wasn't to be though, as we werentt given a steady stream of kickable penalties to keep us within touching distance this time.

I thought England were excellent for 60 minutes, they were hungry, applied huge pressure, dominated the set piece and also played with some wit and imagination. They certainly deserved to win the match.

I was actually physically angry that Wales seemed to have not turned up. Definite credit should go to England here, as they moved the ball away from contact, didn't engage with Warrenball and were so fast that our blitz defence seriously misfired. Wales missed more tackles in that half alone than they have in the last 8 entire games ..... But I still have the p feeling that our play was unacceptably poor. Was it complacency? Arrogance? Did they think they just had to hang tough and they would come back at the end? Too stagnant with the current management regime? No idea, but something was seriously wrong with the team psyche.

only a few players stood up to be counted and England really had their tails up.

A few final thoughts;

- the yellow card was always going to come. It doesn't matter who it went to, I think Joubert was showing the next transgressor a yellow regardless.
- Priestland is a better attacking 10 than Biggar. He freed the backs much better and we tore England apart at the end. We seem to fixated on being a great defensive side. When we do cut loose we looked pretty lethal out there. I accept England were a man down, but that wouldn't normally see such an avalanche.
- Marler should be cited and receive a ban. What stupid behaviour, and thoroughly nasty.
- North wasn't in touch at the end, but as soon as you begin to think about one call as the reason you lose an 80 minute game, you're barking up the wrong tree. Ditto regarding th comments about a forward pass, as Ngland should have been out of sight by then.
- Wales and their coaches aren't suddenly a bad side. I hate seeing Wales fans getting personal towards Alex Cuthbert. I doubt TV critics and fans would have had a better game than him out there. We always seem to want a scapegoat, I wouldn't be surprised if Rhys Priestland refused to play for us after the disgusting behaviour of our so called fans.
- neither are England suddenly a great side. They combusted at the end and were all over the place. Equally they couldn't make their dominance count on the scoreboard. A good result, played well overall and the coaches still have some work to do.

I'm seriously gutted, but well done England. They were the better side overall, they seemed to want it more and it would have been a bit of a travesty if we had nicked it. .

- - - Updated - - -

sorry for the long post! I had this on my mind a lot!!

I will try to break future posts up or be more brief :redcard:

Don't worry about the length.....the quality was great!!

Only doubt I have about it is that the change of scrummie assisted Priestland greatly and also once Biggar got the charge down the confidence started to come back where it had been missing in the team prior to that!!

 

[TommiG88]

I wasn't talking ethnic groups, I was talking about offensive and derogatory remarks of which "Black Boy" could be to some, one.

I've been called white boy, didn't offend me.

 

[McTallshort]

What Marler said was wrong and has no place in the international game. It also paints the game in a bad light, we have only just had a bunch of over opinionated tofu munchers publish a report saying tackling should be banned in schools and now we have this, you could just imagine average Guardian readers mindset "oh god not only are they a bunch of posh thugs that force my little Toby to get dirty during PE they are now openly racist!!!!! Ban everything with an oval ball, bad example for my little ones in their carefully selected state school etc etc".

He should be banned and the sport should roundly condem his remarks.

 

[ncurd]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/35804352

Interesting note Vunipola's impact just as a thread noted during the game they were committing a lot of players just to bring him down.

 

[The5thOfficial]

I've been called white boy, didn't offend me.

"YAWN" yes, and that's where the subjectiveness come into it. You didn't find it offensive but someone else might. Just because YOU don't find a remark, a name, an exchange offensive or racist, doesn't mean someone else wont. Its a bit like beauty, its in the eye of the beholder.