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[2018 November Tests] Ireland vs New Zealand (17/11/18)

Nubiwan

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agree about the scapegoating.
no single player was to blame. the fault lies with Ireland in that they played an awesome game and were just better on the day.
it happens. ABs are mere mortals, they are gonna lose games.
---- etc. etc.
ABs didnt play bad. they are still a world class side but Ireland played awesome and were irresistible .
ireland are about to discover (as england already have) its easy to get to the top. the hard part is staying up there. i hope ireland get their #1 ranking that they deserve. it will liven up world rugby and take focus off the ABs
The last sentence you wrote is what it is all rather about, and what has made New Zealand so great since.... well since......ever really. My 50 odd years anyway.

If I had a nickel for every Irish fella that told me Ireland always peak too soon, then I'd have a nickel, but the point was made to me.
 

Jabby

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Jabby said:
This i'm surprised hasn't been mentioned more, i thought Whitelock looked shattered, for a fair chunk of the game i was watching him and he was just flopping onto rucks or just dragging people to the ground in tackles rather than a hit and drive. i'm a believer that a game can be won and lost in the tight and not having that pressure was a big loss

i feel for the French, they play a lot of rugby (or so I hear). our players are managed better than any others, so we're the last ones to have such an excuse.

not an excuse, just an observation, France managing their players well doesnt change the fact he looked shagged, it might mean he's getting past it rather than he's had too much rugby this season

i prefer Dmac at 10, beauden at 15, mounga from the bench. i think mounga is absolutely the best bench player you can have, because he is effective at taking advantage of tiring defences if coming on when behind, but his advantage compared to other bench players is that he has calm and control to close out a game when coming on when we're in front. crotty would be on my bench too.

funnily enough i say the exact same for DMac, the benefit of having the more versatile player on the bench though is you can bring them on for who ever might need a chop out without having to re shuffle the whole backline, ive always preferred starting the specialists
 
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corny

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Re the Irish succeeding the ABs to No1 in world rankings: Given the next AB game after Italy is not til mid year 2019, Ireland 6 Nations tournament starting before that in Feb gives Ireland the opportunity to get enough points to overtake us...Tough competition that Six Nations though with Wales and England also strong, even Scotland have improved so i have my doubts they will win all their games like they did last year...a year is a long time in sport and many things can change in that time...

Ireland will have to win their opening three games to overtake NZ. These are England (H), Scotland (A) and Italy (A). Tough ask. We lost in Murrayfield two years ago and if England have a full team available to them they are well capable of winning in Dublin.
 

The Alpha Bro

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Ireland will have to win their opening three games to overtake NZ. These are England (H), Scotland (A) and Italy (A). Tough ask. We lost in Murrayfield two years ago and if England have a full team available to them they are well capable of winning in Dublin.
I'd fancy our chances tbh. Reckon the Wales game will knock us back down though.
 

Umaga's Witness

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isnt it anyones job to score tries? yes you have your core and primary roles but if u can score tries as well your stock shoots up.
reads still got it. even in that ireland test read (sWhitelock, retallick and aSavea) were all working hard, making tackles and clearing rucks.
reads running game was snuffed out , but then everyone, squire, ioane, crotty,bender etc,was being stopped by the ireland defence. no one was making very much yards against that green wave.
no need to panic. reads still the best 8 around. one game doesnt make him a bad player

II would say the team's role is to score tries. Very few tries are individual tries. but that's all besides the point. even if "u can score tries as well your stock shoots up" were true, it's still hardly a relevant statistic in comparing 8s.

i agree that "read's still got it".

as for Read more generally, I've always thought he's overrated, but i've also always said he's very good. it's nothing about one game. and i've also said that in this one game, while he didn't perform to the world class level people rate him at, he clearly had handling issues after getting his shoulder injury.

don't think Read's role in the team at the moment is to play the running game he used to, so his lack of metres doesn't mean so much.

as for best 8 in the game, no. best 8 in new zealand, yes.
 

TRF_Olyy

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I'd fancy our chances tbh. Reckon the Wales game will knock us back down though.
Is this false modesty or....?

If you can dominate the ABs you should **** everyone in the 6N without much trouble
 

bushytop

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I'd fancy our chances tbh. Reckon the Wales game will knock us back down though.

I’ve heard a few Irishman wary of Wales all of a sudden, strange what vertigo does I guess.

The problem (for Wales) with a clash against Ireland at the moment is possession. For the past 12 months (maybe more) Ireland notoriously have around 60-65% possession, during that same time Wales have been a averaging around 40%. With Ireland being so good at maintaining the ball and Wales just giving the thing away for free, I fear the numbers could be skewed even further towards the men in green when they face each other...

... and there is No way any side would beat Ireland with less than 35% possession.
 

Umaga's Witness

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not an excuse, just an observation, France managing their players well doesnt change the fact he looked shagged, it might mean he's getting past it rather than he's had too much rugby this season



funnily enough i say the exact same for DMac, the benefit of having the more versatile player on the bench though is you can bring them on for who ever might need a chop out without having to re shuffle the whole backline, ive always preferred starting the specialists

I'm not sure I articulated that perfectly. i wasn't saying mounga is better than dmac at coming on to take advantage of tiring defences, i was saying that he is pretty good at that too, but he is probably the best we've got at coming on and using his cool head and game control to close out a game. and that its' the combination of those two facets that make him "absolutely" the best bench player. I just think the aspect of closing out a game is overlooked too much, as it should be an important aspect of a bench player.

and sorry to insinuate you were making excuses, i didn't mean that either.
 

The Alpha Bro

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Is this false modesty or....?

If you can dominate the ABs you should **** everyone in the 6N without much trouble
We haven't won in Cardiff since 2013 (and that was simply because Wales didn't show up) I think Ireland are comfortably the better side as the 5 ranking point gap would suggest but a riled up Welsh side in Cardiff is definitely our biggest challenge of the 6n considering we have England and France in Dublin where we don't really lose.

I’ve heard a few Irishman wary of Wales all of a sudden, strange what vertigo does I guess.

The problem (for Wales) with a clash against Ireland at the moment is possession. For the past 12 months (maybe more) Ireland notoriously have around 60-65% possession, during that same time Wales have been a averaging around 40%. With Ireland being so good at maintaining the ball and Wales just giving the thing away for free, I fear the numbers could be skewed even further towards the men in green when they face each other...

... and there is No way any side would beat Ireland with less than 35% possession.

You very nearly had us in Dublin with little enough possession last time, scoring tries quickly is the way to beat Ireland, we've become similar to NZ in being very good at giving up threes to stop sevens but Wales are a team that can and often have beaten us in games where all stats would suggest we should have won.
 

ncurd

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The schedules a bit **** as an England fan.

Playing in Dublin is a pretty disheartening way to start the campaign for England. Odd are we'll lose and spend the rest of tournament relying on results. Problem is Ireland's most likely to lose match is on Super Saturday where we'll only know minutes before the match if we can actually win. The good news is we do have Scotland at home for that game who have a 36 year losing streak to break. They'll break it someday but its England are favorites regardless despite last years Murrayfield result.

We do have Wales in Cardiff as well but we've only lost there once this decade in the six nations (2013) its not a place this crop of England players should fear.
 

bushytop

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We haven't won in Cardiff since 2013 (and that was simply because Wales didn't show up) I think Ireland are comfortably the better side as the 5 ranking point gap would suggest but a riled up Welsh side in Cardiff is definitely our biggest challenge of the 6n considering we have England and France in Dublin where we don't really lose.



You very nearly had us in Dublin with little enough possession last time, scoring tries quickly is the way to beat Ireland, we've become similar to NZ in being very good at giving up threes to stop sevens but Wales are a team that can and often have beaten us in games where all stats would suggest we should have won.

To be fair, you make some valid points but I think all logic would have to make Ireland favourites if both sides go into the game with 100% records at the time.

Will be an interesting 6N to say the least.
 

bushytop

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The schedules a bit **** as an England fan.

Playing in Dublin is a pretty disheartening way to start the campaign for England. Odd are we'll lose and spend the rest of tournament relying on results. Problem is Ireland's most likely to lose match is on Super Saturday where we'll only know minutes before the match if we can actually win. The good news is we do have Scotland at home for that game who have a 36 year losing streak to break. They'll break it someday but its England are favorites regardless despite last years Murrayfield result.

We do have Wales in Cardiff as well but we've only lost there once this decade in the six nations (2013) its not a place this crop of England players should fear.

The last two games between England and Wales have been particularly close (Cardiff 2017 & Twickers 2018), I wouldn’t simply ‘count chickens’ if I were England.
 

The Alpha Bro

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To be fair, you make some valid points but I think all logic would have to make Ireland favourites if both sides go into the game with 100% records at the time.

Will be an interesting 6N to say the least.
I'd bet on it being a GS match for Ireland and if that's the case we're 100% going to be favourites but everything else still stands!
The ability to make short to medium term predictions based on the recent past... Sir, where can I learn this power?
 

bushytop

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I'd bet on it being a GS match for Ireland and if that's the case we're 100% going to be favourites but everything else still stands!

The ability to make short to medium term predictions based on the recent past... Sir, where can I learn this power?

If I remember rightly, think it was a GS game in Cardiff for both us back in 05, would be another great occasion.
 

ncurd

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The last two games between England and Wales have been particularly close (Cardiff 2017 & Twickers 2018), I wouldn’t simply ‘count chickens’ if I were England.
Oh it'll be a tough match my point was simply unlike Ireland we don't have recent history weighing against us, Dublin is a different story. Honestly unless we poorly and we only lose to you two a 3rd place finish in the cycle where we play both you guys away is not a shabby result.
 

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If I remember rightly, think it was a GS game in Cardiff for both us back in 05, would be another great occasion.
Nah, we were in the middle of our 7 game losing streak to the French back then. We won a slam in 2009 in Cardiff so obviously it's a round 5 fixture that lends a hand to one or both teams going for it.
 

bushytop

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Nah, we were in the middle of our 7 game losing streak to the French back then. We won a slam in 2009 in Cardiff so obviously it's a round 5 fixture that lends a hand to one or both teams going for it.

Could you have won a championship back in 05 then, I seem to remember there was a lot on it for both teams?
 

ncurd

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The ability to make short to medium term predictions based on the recent past... Sir, where can I learn this power?
Its almost like watching international rugby, looking at the form book and keeping informed don't mean anything. I'm glad the bookies pull their odds out their arse.
 
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