All Blacks v Fiji at Carisbrook. 22/07/11, 7.35pm (NZT).

[Black Heart]

One thing that no one has pointed out yet, did anyone else think the All Black tactics for this match, were pretty terrible. There was little to no forwards running from the ruck, instead what happened is that Jimmy Cowan would pass out to Slade, Slade would pass it to the mid field and then Ma'a Nonu or a forward would just constantly crash it in the centre. There were a number of times that the ball was just crashed in mid field and Richie McCaw would just hit it with space and options wide. It honestly was like watching England's play in 2009. So frustrating. It seems pretty obvious that what ever the back three is chosen, they are not going to be seeing much ball. I think if the All Blacks drew the players in by pick and going oof the ruck, or off running pods near the ruck, then they would have made so many yards and freed up so much space for the backs. As it was, they were pretty much just mid field crashing against a 13 man defence.

I think the tactics used for the majority of the games have been extremely poor for a long time. The flat attacking lines, the half paced hit ups, in-goal attacking plays, locks in the midfield, front rowers on the wings, it's just the same regurgitated mess.

I agree with peoples criticism that Ben Smith isn't a wing. He did pretty well with what he got, but his creativity is wasted on the wing and he doesn't have the out and out pace to beat the man on the outside. The problem is, Ted has been a Muliaina fan for a long time, and it is pretty clear no one is going to get a run at fullback till Mils reaches 100 test caps and leaves the All Blacks. Which is a shame because Toeava, Smith, Dagg and arguably Jane are all in better form at fullback but have to play on the wing. Not saying Muliaina had a bad game, but I don't feel he is the best fullback any more.

I agree than Dagg and Jane are more form players atm but there's no way I would drop Muliaiana going into a World Cup. If he was playing poorly then it would be a different story but experience is one thing you can't loose and in this case it doesn't need to be lost.

 

[candybum]

The refereeing in this game was quite pathetic. How can he not see that Mils was offside after the Weepu chip kick!? Touch judges c'mon man!

 

[nickdnz]

I think the tactics used for the majority of the games have been extremely poor for a long time. The flat attacking lines, the half paced hit ups, in-goal attacking plays, locks in the midfield, front rowers on the wings, it's just the same regurgitated mess.



I agree than Dagg and Jane are more form players atm but there's no way I would drop Muliaiana going into a World Cup. If he was playing poorly then it would be a different story but experience is one thing you can't loose and in this case it doesn't need to be lost.

Yeah, I wouldn't drop Mils from the team but I would certainly give other players a go at fullback. Henry has always had this man love thing for Muliaina, heck he went to the school Henry was headmaster of after Henry requested he moved from Southland to Auckland. The problem is that if no one gets a run at fullback, there is going to be an issue if Mils gets injured. Quite frankly, we're not going to see McCaw or Muliaina miss a game all year, simply because Henry doesn't want to give one of them more caps than the other untill Mils leaves. That's all well and good, but it's costing players like Ben Smith a chance to show what he can do in his preferred position at International level.

 

[Amobokoboko]

Toeava and Dagg are some good replacements and they have the experience. When they come back from injury I reckon they will have a crack at the game.

 

[Sai]

6/10 Performance by the AB's.
Dominated General play and tactically did enough to keep themselves apart from the Fijiians but sloppy work altogether.

7/10 Performance by the Fijiians.
Great breakdown work, Set play was poor - didnt seem to have any major options other than running the ball out wide and hitting the defensive at depth. Shouldn't just rely on natural talent, need some tactics as well. (Just look what Samoa did against the Aussies)

looking forward to seeing your boys show us how its done in the WC

 

[Black Heart]

Toeava and Dagg are some good replacements and they have the experience. When they come back from injury I reckon they will have a crack at the game.

Dagg has 6 test caps, not that much experience really.

 

[Darwin]

One thing that no one has pointed out yet, did anyone else think the All Black tactics for this match, were pretty terrible. There was little to no forwards running from the ruck, instead what happened is that Jimmy Cowan would pass out to Slade, Slade would pass it to the mid field and then Ma'a Nonu or a forward would just constantly crash it in the centre. There were a number of times that the ball was just crashed in mid field and Richie McCaw would just hit it with space and options wide. It honestly was like watching England's play in 2009. So frustrating. It seems pretty obvious that what ever the back three is chosen, they are not going to be seeing much ball. I think if the All Blacks drew the players in by pick and going oof the ruck, or off running pods near the ruck, then they would have made so many yards and freed up so much space for the backs. As it was, they were pretty much just mid field crashing against a 13 man defence.

I agree entirely with this. The AB's failed to draw in the opposition forwards before going wide - the few times that actually ran close to the ruck they made huge inroads (runs from Ali Williams, Andrew Hore, and Conrad Smith come to mind). It was noticeable that they spent a lot of time attacking the blindside in an attempt to draw the Fijian defenders away from the openside in an attempt to give the backs some space to move. I don't think this tactic was overly effective, though they did score a couple of early tries by creating and overlap out wide.

I agree with peoples criticism that Ben Smith isn't a wing. He did pretty well with what he got, but his creativity is wasted on the wing and he doesn't have the out and out pace to beat the man on the outside. The problem is, Ted has been a Muliaina fan for a long time, and it is pretty clear no one is going to get a run at fullback till Mils reaches 100 test caps and leaves the All Blacks. Which is a shame because Toeava, Smith, Dagg and arguably Jane are all in better form at fullback but have to play on the wing. Not saying Muliaina had a bad game, but I don't feel he is the best fullback any more.

I tend to agree that Smith doesn't have 'out and out' pace, so I'm not yet 100% convinced about him at test level. I think you can survive without express pace though - Smith certainly isn't slow; I'd say he'd be at least as quick as Cory Jane (who was in my opinion the best wing in the world in 2009). Even someone like Sivivatu doesn't really have express pace, but rather beats people with his acceleration rather than anything else. I think with Smiths extremely high skill level, and deceptive ability to beat people he has the potential at least to be a very good test wing...

 

[DJRonStar]

At this stage Guildford is still probably in-line to make the RWC squad, while Ben Smith is still on the outside looking in, though much can change during the Tri-nations. Sivivatu had a very good game vs Fiji so he certainly improved his chances of making the final squad too.

I'm not sure what game you were watching, but Zac Guildford looked very good on defense to me. What mistakes did he make in defense? In the first Fijian try he came from a huge distance away to tackle the Fijian number 8 (no-one else was going to get close!), and in the second he (rightly) covered the outside man on the wing and Conrad Smith missed a one-on-one tackle inside him - it certainly wasn't Guildfords fault! With regards to the Genia try, that was not Guildford's fault either - Fotuali'i missed the initial tackle and Sean Maitland was lined up to take Genia (which he failed to do), Guildford's job was to cover the men outside Genia (which he clearly did). Guildford may not be perfect, but he is close to the best defensive wing in the country.

Ben Smith is best at fullback, but he is more than capable on the wing. I was at the ground watching the game and can't recall the incident you mention when Smith was standing too wide - I plan to watch a full replay tonight though, so will comment once I've seen it. Smith looked dangerous whenever he got the ball in my opinion - certainly didn't look out of place on the wing (not surprising as he has plenty of experience on the wing).



Yeah I think the 5 outside back spots are the most hotly contested place in the RWC squad - currently there are 8 players competing for these 5 positions, and that doesn't include those like Ranger and Rokocoko, who didn't even make the squad. I honestly don't think there is much between most of NZ's top wings; they all have different strengths and weaknesses, and I think there are valid arguments for the inclusion (or exclusion) of any of these wings in the AB's squad. Who the AB's selectors pick will come very much down to who suits their game plan best.

I'm personally quite a fan of Ranger too - he has all the strengths you mention as well as having a big work-rate, and he is in my mind the best outside back in NZ at the breakdown. As you say his main issue is discipline, as well as his positional play in defence - the Blues conceded a number of tries down his wing when he drifted in-field off his man in defense. I'd actually be happy with any of a number of NZ wings/fullbacks in the RWC squad. Although I seem to spend my whole time on here defending Zac Guildford, I'm not actually his biggest fan - I just think he is very under-rated by many people.

Everyone has there opinions I was just voicing mine. I don't think Zac Guildford has much to offer in terms of speed. His defence has been average and was a bit lost in one of the Fijian trys. Ben smith is not a winger and there are 3 players ahead of him playing fullback. Mills Muliaina, Israel Dagg & Isaia Toeava. I'll even go to say that Cory Jane is better than him.

You like to follow me around on this firum don't ya?

P.S Do you still think the ABs will choke with Samoan players.

Originally Posted by darwin_23
Seriously, what was Johnston thinking picking players from New Zealand and Samoa? If history has shown us anything, teams composed of New Zealand and Samoans notoriously choke at the RWC

 

[Darwin]

Everyone has there opinions I was just voicing mine. I don't think Zac Guildford has much to offer in terms of speed. His defence has been average and was a bit lost in one of the Fijian trys.

You are thoroughly entitled to your voice your opinions, just as I'm entitled to disagree with them... What is wrong with Guildford's speed? I'd suggest there are few players in NZ rugby that would match him for pace (Crusaders team-mate Sean Maitland would be one of the few). Again I ask: which Fijian try did he look lost defensively in - the one where he made the covering tackle, or the one where Conrad Smith missed a 1-on-1 tackle when he was defending outside him?

Ben smith is not a winger and there are 3 players ahead of him playing fullback. Mills Muliaina, Israel Dagg & Isaia Toeava. I'll even go to say that Cory Jane is better than him.

While I agree Smith's best position is at fullback, I think he is more than capable of being a quality wing at test level. Despite being the standout NZ fullback in Super Rugby (along with Toeava before he was injured) I the AB's selectors still rate Muliaina, Dagg, and Toeava ahead of him (not sure about Jane), with Smith only getting his chance due to the fact that Dagg and Toeava are injured. With Hosea Gear possibly back for next weeks test against the Boks, and Sivivatu looking impressive against Fiji it seems unlikely that Smith will get a chance to start on the wing this year (though he may again get a chance off the bench due to his versatility).
EDIT: Interesting to see that Ben Smith has been rushed into the Otago starting lineup on the right wing v Hawkes' Bay this afternoon (presumably at the request of the AB's selectors)... Not really sure what to read into this, though perhaps this is an indication they are considering picking him on the right wing for the AB's v South Africa...

You like to follow me around on this firum don't ya?

No, I have far better things to do :lol:

P.S Do you still think the ABs will choke with Samoan players.

Originally Posted by darwin_23
Seriously, what was Johnston thinking picking players from New Zealand and Samoa? If history has shown us anything, teams composed of New Zealand and Samoans notoriously choke at the RWC

Umm....it was a joke (at the expense of my own country)... that is why it has a 'winking' smiley at the end I am picking the AB's will win the RWC at home.

 

[DJRonStar]

You are thoroughly entitled to your voice your opinions, just as I'm entitled to disagree with them... What is wrong with Guildford's speed? I'd suggest there are few players in NZ rugby that would match him for pace (Crusaders team-mate Sean Maitland would be one of the few). Again I ask: which Fijian try did he look lost defensively in - the one where he made the covering tackle, or the one where Conrad Smith missed a 1-on-1 tackle when he was defending outside him?




While I agree Smith's best position is at fullback, I think he is more than capable of being a quality wing at test level. Despite being the standout NZ fullback in Super Rugby (along with Toeava before he was injured) I the AB's selectors still rate Muliaina, Dagg, and Toeava ahead of him (not sure about Jane), with Smith only getting his chance due to the fact that Dagg and Toeava are injured. With Hosea Gear possibly back for next weeks test against the Boks, and Sivivatu looking impressive against Fiji it seems unlikely that Smith will get a chance to start on the wing this year (though he may again get a chance off the bench due to his versatility).
EDIT: Interesting to see that Ben Smith has been rushed into the Otago starting lineup on the right wing v Hawkes' Bay this afternoon (presumably at the request of the AB's selectors)... Not really sure what to read into this, though perhaps this is an indication they are considering picking him on the right wing for the AB's v South Africa...


No, I have far better things to do :lol:



Umm....it was a joke (at the expense of my own country)... that is why it has a 'winking' smiley at the end I am picking the AB's will win the RWC at home.

Fair enough mate. I actually meant Zac Guildford don't offer too much besides speed, but that's my opinion. I 'll have to go back and watch the Ab vs Fiji game but I'm pretty sure he was found wanting. I think Sitivatu will make the final world cup squad. He had a good game on Friday and looks to be working hard and trying to prove the selectors he is still worthy.

Not sure how to take the game against the Boks next week but should be interesting. Go ABs!

 

[Darwin]

Fair enough mate. I actually meant Zac Guildford don't offer too much besides speed, but that's my opinion. I 'll have to go back and watch the Ab vs Fiji game but I'm pretty sure he was found wanting. I think Sitivatu will make the final world cup squad. He had a good game on Friday and looks to be working hard and trying to prove the selectors he is still worthy.

Not sure how to take the game against the Boks next week but should be interesting. Go ABs!

It wouldn't surprise me at all if Sivivatu make the final RWC squad, as he is regarded very highly by the selectors. He certainly showed a huge work-rate on Friday for someone who is apparently has very poor fitness levels! The AB's selectors may well pick Sivivatu and Guildford again to start against the Boks, as though Toeava and Gear are apparently almost back to full fitness, they are unlikely to throw them straight in without playing a warm-up match or two in the ITM Cup (the other option of course is to give either Jane of Smith a start on the right wing).

 

[Larksea]

I think it will be good for NZ if Sivi finds form and makes the WC squad and it will likely be at the expense of Guildford. But I also think Sivi has a way to go, if his fittness was the worst in the team outside Weepu just a couple of weeks ago then he will still be a couple of weeks away from fixing those issues.

but that idea makes me a little uneasy as well. that will leave us with

Gear, Toeava & Sivivatu as the main wing cover all have had form and injury issus this year and none are specilist right wingers. At the very least Guildford is in good form and out of all of them he's just as comfortable on either side of the park and even fullback. because he plays all over the park anyway. Sivivatu was very uncomfortable on the right wing in 2008 for the All Blacks.

I dont get the criticism of Guildfords defence either, The reality is as far as defence goes there aren't many if any wingers in NZ that are as safe or as good as Guildford in that area. It is a strength of Rokocoko's game, though I wouldn't say any other winger in NZ is definately better than Guildford on defence. And no blunder of guildfords that I saw lead to either of Fiji's trys. one was from a straight up Missed tackle by Conrad Smith and the other from the forwards failing to secure some ruck ball from Conrad Smith - both trys also involved some brilliant play frim Fiji.

Guildford is a Great player, I think it's tough to judge him and others on that one game where new tactics were being experimented with. There were a few things that didn't really kinda click. It will get better with time or tweaking. There were a few strange things about the way the AB's played. Like Liam Messam - He was the top man in the whole super competition for pick and go but he wasn't used for pick and go by the AB's at all. He kept very wide of the ruck - made a few good touches but he did seem to be kept out of the game somewhat compared to how he would normally play. I did actually like some aspects of the new tactics though. At times it looked like there were groups of players spread accross the field and the ball would go from one to the other and one of the groups would attack. If the defence groups up trying to counter it then gaps will appear and if they spread out then it may create missmatches in terms of numbers.

It does seem like quite a big change though and you could see Wayne Smith laying talking down the house at half time. They Obviously have a lot of work on's with it.