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England's Argetine Adventure

6. Fearns
7. Seymour
8. Morgan


:p

Realistically, if Kvesic establishes himself at 7, I really really don't know.
In theory I always prefer a big hitter and/or carrier at 6, someone like Lydiate, Ferris, Fearns/O'Brien (when not shoehorned in at 7).
In Croft/Robshaw/Wood you have three very talented backrowers who all have a slightly different skillset - I'd probably say Wood as he's a good mix of what Croft and Robshaw bring, and is also very good at the breakdown.

Haha yeah.
I think I would agree with Wood- I am a big fan of his and I guess whoever was first choice 6 would be captain also. I think i would prefer Robshaw over Croft as well cause hes a bit more physical
 
Its that time again already?

I think we need everything we need to about Robshaw's abilities at openside that Lancaster is happy to play him there, but also openly talks of his desire to see a more specialised player challenging. It perfectly encapsulates where Robshaw is.

Also, I'm not being funny, but all this "It didn't work in one match so we only came second means it doesn't work" is just crap. England have come second two years running, beaten the All Blacks (albeit in fortutious circs) and got a draw in South Africa with a 'blindside' at 7. We lost one tight game to Wales last year with a very raw team and one game which featured a very anomalous scoreline for England, has plenty of off the pitch factors to point at to help explain it, and was mainly lost in the front row, which poisons all other aspects of forward play when it goes wrong - and therefore, isn't the best example ever. England have had a great deal of success over the past two years with "two blindsides". With even better blindsides, we'd have had even more probably...

*records the message for future purposes*
 
Every time I hear Robshaw's stats they read like a blindise's. High tackle count and tiresome carrying without making too much ground. Comparing him to Welsh backrowers, he's closer to Lydiate than he is Tipuric.

This. I just don't understand why people insist that he's a 7 when he's quite OBVIOUSLY a blindside. If you want to play with two blindsides then so be it, just don't call them opensides.
People seem to want to take that as an unsult to the guy, it's not at all.
Lancaster has obviously realised this or only now beleives we have an openside of enough quality to play there, hence him bringing Kvesic in.
I don't think he would bring him in if he had no intentions of playing him, should he prove himself to be good enough.
 
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Its that time again already?

I think we need everything we need to about Robshaw's abilities at openside that Lancaster is happy to play him there, but also openly talks of his desire to see a more specialised player challenging. It perfectly encapsulates where Robshaw is.

Also, I'm not being funny, but all this "It didn't work in one match so we only came second means it doesn't work" is just crap. England have come second two years running, beaten the All Blacks (albeit in fortutious circs) and got a draw in South Africa with a 'blindside' at 7. We lost one tight game to Wales last year with a very raw team and one game which featured a very anomalous scoreline for England, has plenty of off the pitch factors to point at to help explain it, and was mainly lost in the front row, which poisons all other aspects of forward play when it goes wrong - and therefore, isn't the best example ever. England have had a great deal of success over the past two years with "two blindsides". With even better blindsides, we'd have had even more probably...

*records the message for future purposes*

England are good with an unbalanced backrow which incorporates two blindsides, they'd be better with a more balanced backrow with Wood/Robshaw/Croft at 6, Kvesic (or similar) at 7 and Morgan/Vunipola at 8.

The reason the Welsh game is important, is because it really highlighted this weakness. The other 6 nations sides don't necessarily have very balanced backrows either, so England can get away with it against them, but one of Wales big strengths atm is the balance in the backrow. England will continue to struggle against Wales, Aus and NZ (at their best) if they don't address this imo.

The front row wasn't the only problem England had in that match.
 
Not even sure why we're discussing this
I think Seymour's downfall is his relative size. According to Sale and wiki, he's a good 2 stone lighter than the majority of the main England competitors in the back row. He's 15 st 2, Johnson is 16 st 2, Croft is 16 st 7, the rest are 17-18 st (in order: Fraser, Clark, Robshaw, Kvesic, Wood, Haskell), Morgan is 18 st 3 and Vunipola breaks the scales at ~20 st. I think England value physicality a lot (too much?) in the back row because of a relatively light second row. England need their flankers to help the second row in acting as gain line stoppers. Considering his size, Morgan should be better at this than he is, but he's young and probably still conditioning his body and will hopefully get there.
 
Its that time again already?

I think we need everything we need to about Robshaw's abilities at openside that Lancaster is happy to play him there, but also openly talks of his desire to see a more specialised player challenging. It perfectly encapsulates where Robshaw is.

Also, I'm not being funny, but all this "It didn't work in one match so we only came second means it doesn't work" is just crap. England have come second two years running, beaten the All Blacks (albeit in fortutious circs) and got a draw in South Africa with a 'blindside' at 7. We lost one tight game to Wales last year with a very raw team and one game which featured a very anomalous scoreline for England, has plenty of off the pitch factors to point at to help explain it, and was mainly lost in the front row, which poisons all other aspects of forward play when it goes wrong - and therefore, isn't the best example ever. England have had a great deal of success over the past two years with "two blindsides". With even better blindsides, we'd have had even more probably...

*records the message for future purposes*
Yeah, but we would have grandslammed both 6N and smashed the All Blacks and Springboks with Our Lord and Saviour at 7:
dave_seymour.jpg

I think Seymour's downfall is his relative size. According to Sale and wiki, he's a good 2 stone lighter than the majority of the main England competitors in the back row. He's 15 st 2, Johnson is 16 st 2, Croft is 16 st 7, the rest are 17-18 st (in order: Fraser, Clark, Robshaw, Kvesic, Wood, Haskell), Morgan is 18 st 3 and Vunipola breaks the scales at ~20 st. I think England value physicality a lot (too much?) in the back row because of a relatively light second row. England need their flankers to help the second row in acting as gain line stoppers. Considering his size, Morgan should be better at this than he is, but he's young and probably still conditioning his body and will hopefully get there.
That's a fair point in carrying stakes, but with regards to defence no-one ever gets down his channel (you can see in the clip above: you get players at full flight running at him and stop dead) - in one of our televised games after Christmas Sky Sports mentioned how he was the only player with 0 missed tackles, and considering he started every game, and played 80mins the majority, that's something.
It's also why I prefer a big guy at 6 - allows for a smaller 7. With two 6.5s you get decent carrying and decent at the breakdown, with a big 6 and a true 7 you get great carrying and great at the breakdown. Just in two different packages :p
I have, however, accepted (begrudgingly) that Seymour is unlikely to ever play for England (or, probably, Saxons) - I wonder if he's got any foreign Grandparents?
Think if he played in/for any other country he'd be capped.
 
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How long did it take you to make this?:run:
Haha, I expected that!
Sale Sharks uploaded a 1min video last year when he won Player of the Season, and I tried to find that a week or so ago and then found this - I was ecstatic :D
 
England are good with an unbalanced backrow which incorporates two blindsides, they'd be better with a more balanced backrow with Wood/Robshaw/Croft at 6, Kvesic (or similar) at 7 and Morgan/Vunipola at 8.

The reason the Welsh game is important, is because it really highlighted this weakness. The other 6 nations sides don't necessarily have very balanced backrows either, so England can get away with it against them, but one of Wales big strengths atm is the balance in the backrow. England will continue to struggle against Wales, Aus and NZ (at their best) if they don't address this imo.

The front row wasn't the only problem England had in that match.

I never said it was the only problem - but as I said, a malfunctioning scrum poisons everything. Your pack tires quicker than theirs, players get demoralised, possession becomes scant leading to more tiring bouts of defending and pressurized decision making in attack. This is doubly true for a team who was only ever really going to score in multiples of 3 anyway (a problem in itself). So yes, I maintain that the game was lost mainly there, as it disaligned too many systems. You may disagree - I am open to argument on the score - but what I do hold as open and shut is that the effects of scrum dominance is so pronounced that you categorically cannot state the superiority of a back-row unit based on a game where one team had a better scrum. If you want to talk about England's back row based on a series of games, well and good, if you want to use a single skewed example then there's no point.

Don't buy your point about the rest of the Six Nation having unbalanced back-rows either. Zanni-Barbieri-Parissee is very nicely balanced imo. France's back row is as balanced as its ever been really, they seem to do ok. Scotland's back row wasn't balanced this time round but they regularly throw up great balanced units, but to no avail. Only really leaves us and Ireland - and while, granted, the game has changed, Ferris/O'Brien'Heaslip isn't really much different to the Ferris/Wallace/Heaslip unit they won their grand slam with. They just can't get the rest of the team, or get those players fit and in form, leaving them with inferior players.

And really, I think inferior players is what it comes down to. I don't want to badmouth balance, gods no, but really the best way to get a superb back row is stick them behind a great tight five, drop in three World Class players and let them get on with it. Wales have four - minimum - very good back-rowers. Robshaw and Wood are good, but they're not and never will be World Class. Wales also currently have a superior scrummaging tight five. If I am not talking out my buttocks, then I predict that in about two and a half years time the Welsh back-row will undergo dips in form, people will go on about how they've overrated etc.etc. Maybe three years. The time span being my guess at when Adam Jones retires from international rugby. My guess is rendered invalid if you suddenly produce another prop like him from nowhere just like that, but that's slightly below the Euromillions jackpot odds, what with how long it takes to make international props. Heck, it happened last Autumn.

And, if by continue to struggle against Aus and NZ, you mean have better recent records than Wales, I'll take that. NZ's two worst results this season against NH sides came against England and Ireland - the two worst balanced back-rows in the Northern Hemisphere. How if balance is all? Yes, I know norovirus/playing someone at the end of their season is helpful - but its not everything, and the noro first struck NZ before the Wales game, and didn't help Wales there.

Balance is good. But its not everything and it affected by more than the three guys in the unit anyway. I do really hope Kvesic comes through, but that's mainly because I think he can be World Class, where most of our current back-rows bluntly lack the potential.
 
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But by that reckoning Aus should get pummelled every game. I do agree that things get difficult without a platform, but not impossible. The scrum was a big aspect of that game, and probably was the biggest reason why Wales won, but the ability of the Welsh backrow, in particular Tipuric to take advantage of that superiority was also evident.

As for the other sides in the 6 nations. I agree that Italy do have a nicely balanced backrow, and it showed with how competitive they were. Unfortunately the lack quality in other areas to fully take advantage of that in every match. France are somewhat different, they play using left and right flankers, and as such can't be directly compared. Scotland with Rennie at 7 have a nicely balanced backrow, but again they have lacked quality in other areas to take full advantage. I think plenty of Irish fans would agree that the balance in their backrow hasn't been great, and has required SOB to drastically change his playing style in order to become more effective at the openside role.

This isn't just a criticism of England either. The Scarlets have tried playing with two (or three) blindsides for the last couple of seasons, and they also struggle, although a weak tight 5 is their biggest issue, but even then their backrow balance is quite obviously off. In the past Wales have also been forced to play blindsides in the openside position (Dafydd Jones and Lydiate for example) and whilst they went OK, there's still something missing.

The importance of a genuine openside has re-emerged in recent years, and I consider it now as one of the most important positions on the pitch, alongside a good scrummaging tighthead, and a dependable 10.
 
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Peat, I totally agree with your comments about scrum dominance (or lack of it) being incredibly important. Incidentally this is why I'd hate to see the scum become less competative as, much like Brian Moore, I love the idea of the scum being a really physical contest and an attcking opportunity for the team with the dominant pack rather than just a penalty machine. But then again I am a forward so I would say that...

But where do England's scum issues come from then? The second row? I know the CONSUR game showed we lack depth in the front row but you can't deny that our first choice from three (Cole, Youngs, Corbs) isn't shabby. Corbs in particular has already shown this summer how much of an asset he is. Presumably then it must be the locks. While Launchbury is excellent at the line out and in open play he perhaps isn't a traditional 'engine room' second row. Pairing him with Parling (who gets selected based on his line out excellence and work rate) therefore must give us a scum disadvantage. I know this has been said in other threats before but it is worth pointing out as it highlights the importance of Atwood and Myall being in the touring party, Atwood especially being a more 'traditional' lock who might give us more stability at scum time.

Regarding world class back rows, I would argue that Morgan and Kvesic both have the potentially to be world class in their positions.
 
Loosehead definitely - the difference in scrummaging between Marler and Corbisiero is massive.
Youngs is a very inexperienced hooker, as well (2-3 years now, is it? - most hookers would have racked that up before they're 15!) - he's in a great place to learn at Tigers though, with their history of forward prowess. Webber is a classy hooker as well.
Vunipola looks on the up, and Wilson is on great form at the moment - 1st and 2nd choice are decent enough (or improving well) it's just after that that things get a bit hairy.
Launchbury and Parling isn't the biggest lock partnership, as you said,and that doesn't help massively - I wonder if we might see Attwood start to play a bigger role from the AIs onwards. However if Parling and Launchbury exhibit the kind of form they have done over the last year, then he's not going to see many starts.
 
If Seymore was international quality he would be on that tour, i'm not saying i rate him or don't rate him but the coaches must see something major that he needs to work on before he is ready to come into the squad.

I remeber hearing an interview with Andy Saul (another supposed amazing 7) and he was saying that he had been told to add some weight so he was more usful in rucks and tackles. So maybe England have told him that and he hasn't been able to. Either way he is not want the england coaches see as a potencial.

As for England loosing to Wales people forget a few things:

1 We didn't really threaten any other team in attack in the 6 nations
2 The Italians nearly beat us
3 Our forwards as a pack didn't have a proper 7 or 8!
4 We tried to play a sarries style game plan using athletic rather than beastly forwards
5 We only beat New Zealand by chance - there was no well worked gameplay and although i loved watching it it gave players who shouldn't have had another chance...another chance.

I can't remeber an england team that had the best 15 players playing in their club position!!! Why do england do that????
Lets play a 6 at 8
at 6 at 7
a 12 at 10
a waste of space at 12
a FB on the wg
a FH at FB

Just why?
 
It's BS when coaches tell players to put weight on for International rugby - they ruined Matt Tait for a good 4 years making him do that. Look how much better he is now he's slimmed down through injury.
 
If Seymore was international quality he would be on that tour, i'm not saying i rate him or don't rate him but the coaches must see something major that he needs to work on before he is ready to come into the squad.

I remeber hearing an interview with Andy Saul (another supposed amazing 7) and he was saying that he had been told to add some weight so he was more usful in rucks and tackles. So maybe England have told him that and he hasn't been able to. Either way he is not want the england coaches see as a potencial.

As for England loosing to Wales people forget a few things:

1 We didn't really threaten any other team in attack in the 6 nations
2 The Italians nearly beat us
3 Our forwards as a pack didn't have a proper 7 or 8!
4 We tried to play a sarries style game plan using athletic rather than beastly forwards
5 We only beat New Zealand by chance - there was no well worked gameplay and although i loved watching it it gave players who shouldn't have had another chance...another chance.

I can't remeber an england team that had the best 15 players playing in their club position!!! Why do england do that????
Lets play a 6 at 8
at 6 at 7
a 12 at 10
a waste of space at 12
a FB on the wg
a FH at FB

Just why?

I have to disagree with quite a bit of that. To say we beat New Zealand by chance is a massive disservice to the guys who played in that game. If it had been a chance win we wouldn't have put 30 points on them and even players like Goode and Ashton stepped up and performed. Beating the World Champions is not something you can do my chance or without a game plan.

Farrell may not be everyone's cup of tea at ten but he is certainly not a twelve. He only plays there at Sarries because Hodgson, a much better ten, is also at the club and generally he is much poorer when in the centres.

Barritt at twelve is arguably the reason England's defense has been so solid over the last year and a half. Admittedly he has his limitations but as an individual tackler and defensive organiser he is world class. See Will Greenwood's comment about him.

If we treat Goode as a Fly Half then all hope is lost for rugby (not just English rugby but rugby as a sport). He is a sub standard full-back who, unless he magically produces the performance he showed in the NZ game, should go to the Saxons and stay there.
 
It's BS when coaches tell players to put weight on for International rugby - they ruined Matt Tait for a good 4 years making him do that. Look how much better he is now he's slimmed down through injury.

This so much.
 
It's BS when coaches tell players to put weight on for International rugby - they ruined Matt Tait for a good 4 years making him do that. Look how much better he is now he's slimmed down through injury.
Yeah I totes understand hence I only stay under 10 stone so I don't conform to the system YOLO #SWIGSWAG #Otheryouthfulrebelliouscrapnobodycanreallyunderstand #worldpeace
 
I never said it was the only problem - but as I said, a malfunctioning scrum poisons everything. Your pack tires quicker than theirs, players get demoralised, possession becomes scant leading to more tiring bouts of defending and pressurized decision making in attack. This is doubly true for a team who was only ever really going to score in multiples of 3 anyway (a problem in itself). So yes, I maintain that the game was lost mainly there, as it disaligned too many systems. You may disagree - I am open to argument on the score - but what I do hold as open and shut is that the effects of scrum dominance is so pronounced that you categorically cannot state the superiority of a back-row unit based on a game where one team had a better scrum. If you want to talk about England's back row based on a series of games, well and good, if you want to use a single skewed example then there's no point.

Don't buy your point about the rest of the Six Nation having unbalanced back-rows either. Zanni-Barbieri-Parissee is very nicely balanced imo. France's back row is as balanced as its ever been really, they seem to do ok. Scotland's back row wasn't balanced this time round but they regularly throw up great balanced units, but to no avail. Only really leaves us and Ireland - and while, granted, the game has changed, Ferris/O'Brien'Heaslip isn't really much different to the Ferris/Wallace/Heaslip unit they won their grand slam with. They just can't get the rest of the team, or get those players fit and in form, leaving them with inferior players.

And really, I think inferior players is what it comes down to. I don't want to badmouth balance, gods no, but really the best way to get a superb back row is stick them behind a great tight five, drop in three World Class players and let them get on with it. Wales have four - minimum - very good back-rowers. Robshaw and Wood are good, but they're not and never will be World Class. Wales also currently have a superior scrummaging tight five. If I am not talking out my buttocks, then I predict that in about two and a half years time the Welsh back-row will undergo dips in form, people will go on about how they've overrated etc.etc. Maybe three years. The time span being my guess at when Adam Jones retires from international rugby. My guess is rendered invalid if you suddenly produce another prop like him from nowhere just like that, but that's slightly below the Euromillions jackpot odds, what with how long it takes to make international props. Heck, it happened last Autumn.

And, if by continue to struggle against Aus and NZ, you mean have better recent records than Wales, I'll take that. NZ's two worst results this season against NH sides came against England and Ireland - the two worst balanced back-rows in the Northern Hemisphere. How if balance is all? Yes, I know norovirus/playing someone at the end of their season is helpful - but its not everything, and the noro first struck NZ before the Wales game, and didn't help Wales there.

Balance is good. But its not everything and it affected by more than the three guys in the unit anyway. I do really hope Kvesic comes through, but that's mainly because I think he can be World Class, where most of our current back-rows bluntly lack the potential.

Barbieri is a number 8 playing 7. There is no genuine 7 in that back row unless they pick Favaro.
 
Argentine squad vs England this Saturday:

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<tbody>[TR]
[TD="class: tbl_title, colspan: 2"]***ULARES
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: #F7F7F7"]
[TD="class: tbl_normal, colspan: 1"]15
[/TD]
[TD="class: tbl_normal, colspan: 1"]Martín Bustos Moyano[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: tbl_normal, colspan: 1"]14[/TD]
[TD="class: tbl_normal, colspan: 1"]Matías Orlando[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: #F7F7F7"]
[TD="class: tbl_normal, colspan: 1"]13[/TD]
[TD="class: tbl_normal, colspan: 1"]Gonzalo Tiesi[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: tbl_normal, colspan: 1"]12[/TD]
[TD="class: tbl_normal, colspan: 1"]Felipe Contepomi[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: #F7F7F7"]
[TD="class: tbl_normal, colspan: 1"]11[/TD]
[TD="class: tbl_normal, colspan: 1"]Manuel Montero[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: tbl_normal, colspan: 1"]10[/TD]
[TD="class: tbl_normal, colspan: 1"]Benjamín Urdapilleta[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: #F7F7F7"]
[TD="class: tbl_normal, colspan: 1"]9[/TD]
[TD="class: tbl_normal, colspan: 1"]Martín Landajo[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: tbl_normal, colspan: 1"]8[/TD]
[TD="class: tbl_normal, colspan: 1"]Tomás Leonardi[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: #F7F7F7"]
[TD="class: tbl_normal, colspan: 1"]7[/TD]
[TD="class: tbl_normal, colspan: 1"]Benjamín Macome[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: tbl_normal, colspan: 1"]6[/TD]
[TD="class: tbl_normal, colspan: 1"]Julio Farías Cabello[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: #F7F7F7"]
[TD="class: tbl_normal, colspan: 1"]5[/TD]
[TD="class: tbl_normal, colspan: 1"]Mariano Galarza[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: tbl_normal, colspan: 1"]4[/TD]
[TD="class: tbl_normal, colspan: 1"]Esteban Lozada[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: #F7F7F7"]
[TD="class: tbl_normal, colspan: 1"]3[/TD]
[TD="class: tbl_normal, colspan: 1"]Maximiliano Bustos[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: tbl_normal, colspan: 1"]2[/TD]
[TD="class: tbl_normal, colspan: 1"]Martín García Veiga[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: #F7F7F7"]
[TD="class: tbl_normal, colspan: 1"]1[/TD]
[TD="class: tbl_normal, colspan: 1"]Pablo Henn[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: tbl_title, colspan: 2"]SUPLENTES[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: #F7F7F7"]
[TD="class: tbl_normal, colspan: 1"]16[/TD]
[TD="class: tbl_normal, colspan: 1"]Mauricio Guidone[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: tbl_normal, colspan: 1"]17[/TD]
[TD="class: tbl_normal, colspan: 1"]Guillermo Roan[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: #F7F7F7"]
[TD="class: tbl_normal, colspan: 1"]18[/TD]
[TD="class: tbl_normal, colspan: 1"]Francisco Gómez Kodela[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: tbl_normal, colspan: 1"]19[/TD]
[TD="class: tbl_normal, colspan: 1"]Tomás Vallejos Cinalli[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: #F7F7F7"]
[TD="class: tbl_normal, colspan: 1"]20[/TD]
[TD="class: tbl_normal, colspan: 1"]Tomás De la Vega[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: tbl_normal, colspan: 1"]21[/TD]
[TD="class: tbl_normal, colspan: 1"]Nicolás Vergallo[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: #F7F7F7"]
[TD="class: tbl_normal, colspan: 1"]22[/TD]
[TD="class: tbl_normal, colspan: 1"]Gabriel Ascárate[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: tbl_normal, colspan: 1"]23[/TD]
[TD="class: tbl_normal, colspan: 1"]Belisario Agulla
[/TD]
[/TR]
</tbody>[/TABLE]
If you liked the Argentine commentary, this Saturday ESPN Arg. broadcast live the game. (9 pm England.) Enjoy!
 
Corbs called up to the Lions for Healy. Big move up for him but means we're going to be a tad weak in the front row this weekend.
 

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