England's Argetine Adventure

[ratsapprentice]

Yeah, Kvesic hasn't made any clean "jackals" yet, but he has been a ****ing nuisance and made a lot of turnovers even if they haven't been the cleanest.
Huge potential shown in only two matches.

 

[j'nuh]

I'd certainly like to see Barritt retained in the England setup. Similar to how Farrell has been suggested as an ideal player for muddy, slow ball games I think Barritt can excell against certain oppo. Picture this: 2015 WC knock out game against South Africa, who do you want standing in the twelve channel when Pierre Spies is running down it, Barritt or Eastmond? Just a thought.

Kvesic gives me the horn. Him, Launchbury, Cole (his loose work is superb) and Wood/Robshaw combined? Yes please.

I'd compromise and go with Twelvetrees.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

I'd compromise and go with Twelvetrees.

I'd go with 12trees to, Barritt is so average it hurts. We don't need that type of payer in an england shirt ever again. If 12trees is injured then stick Morgan at 12 as he offers more! There has to be other better 12's in the premership as all Barritt offers is a defence, he has no:

No crash ball ability
No pace
No vision
No hands
No great strength

All the things you need in a 12!

 

[mstar]

I think your right regarding Kvesic not making any clean steals, but people fail to realise the art of a clean openside is how you can bend/play within the referee's interpretation of the rules. Kvesic has to get used to the international referee style and be in sync with his forwards. Remember the last great number 7 we had was Neil Back and he been playing with the forward pack for years. If kvesic is the future, lancaster really needs to make up his mind quickly and mould the breakdown tactics around him just like the great teams do. I don't watch every premiership game, but would you say Will fraser is not as good as Kvesic or better?

but then again, robshaws stats don't look bad and i don't think you can say he isn't as affective as a number 7, all this rubbish he cant play number 7 is BS, the stats just don't reveal that compared to specialist number 7's

 

[ratsapprentice]

Fraser is pretty good, and could be a good backup 7 to have in the EPS. This has been his breakthrough season though, so we'll see how he goes in the next.
I don't think he's as good as Kvesic at the breakdown, although he's a great finisher. But I'd take breakdown disruption over finishing in an openside 9 times out of 10.

but then again, robshaws stats don't look bad and i don't think you can say he isn't as affective as a number 7, all this rubbish he cant play number 7 is BS, the stats just don't reveal that compared to specialist number 7's

Robshaw is not a specialist 7.

Mike Brown had great stats whilst playing on the wing, but he is not as good as a good winger, and much better at fullback.
When did you last see Robshaw turn a ball over, when did you last see him make a clean break and have the pace to make ground?
He will be much better served when played at 6.

 

[Patchey]

IMO Fraiser is good enough for England but not as good as Kvesic. I think most people will agree on this?

I think Barritt has shown some a wider range of skills in the Premiership but has, the New Zealand match aside, failed to show them on the international stage. You could quite easily compare him to some of England's other Sarries (Goode and Ashton) who have at least been better for Sarries than England. Of course Goode and Ashton should be a long way away from an England shirt come 2015 I still think Barritt deserves a chance. But that is just my opinion.

Regarding Kvesic again I don't think he's going to displace Robshaw just yet. I can see him firmly taking Haskell's back row bench spot and being used as a late game impact sub with Robshaw either coming off or switching position. Not the best scenario but as mstar pointed out, despite perceptions Robshaw is a pretty good openside and is obviously an important team leader. Of course Tom Wood's performance as captain on this tour may influence Ribshaw's selection in the future.

 

[mstar]

Kvesic just has to play consistently better the Robshaw (which is no means easy as Robshaw is one of the most consistent performers). The argument is all down to is robshaw good enough to compete against world class number 7's? the only person who i saw he was clearly out classed by was Hooper for the aussies last year. He was preety much competitive against other number 7's (tipuric etc).

 

[pd rugby]

If only selection was that simple.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Robshaw has only ever been "the blindside most suited to play openside" in the EPS.
Now that we have actual opensides (yes Oly I know we've always had Seymour! ) available to select from, there is absolutely no need to play either Robshaw or Wood at 6.
Unless you are one of the people who does not acknowledge the advantage/necessity of a specialist 7.

 

[mstar]

But robhaw plays 7 for the Quins (at times) and its not like he gets blown away by other teams i recall Kvesic didnt dominate when up against robshaw.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Robshaw moved to 7 for Quins because he was better suited to it than Fa'asavalu is, you are very possibly giong to see him be played at 6 now that Luke Wallace has emerged.

Let's compare Robshaw and Kvesic's Aviva stats:

Robshaw has played 13 games, Kvesic 21.

Robshaw has carried 142 times for 157 metres gained with 1 Clean break and 9 offloads, 11 defenders beaten.
Kvesic has carried the ball 136 times for 365 metres gained with 4 clean breaks and 14 offloads, 32 defenders beaten.

Those attacking stats clearly demonstrate the difference between a proper openside and a blindside.
The key one being the metres gained per carry, Robshaw gains 1.1m per carry whilst Kvesic gains 2.68m.

I couldn't find the turnovers won stats, but Kev leads heavily in the TO's conceded stats suggesting that he is far more competitive at the breakdown.
And from what I've seen of him, that is correct.

 

[j'nuh]

Those attacking stats clearly demonstrate the difference between a proper openside and a blindside.
The key one being the metres gained per carry, Robshaw gains 1.1m per carry whilst Kvesic gains 2.68m.

It's worth pointing out that Kvesic has doubled up as an 8 at times for Worcester. He won't need to at Gloucester since there's Morgan, Kalamafoni, Evans, Qera and Cox who can reasonably play 8, but having played 8 in the past does suggest that he carries to make meters. Robshaw generally doesn't: he's more of a tight carrier and is often the link between the scrum-half and other forward carriers. Robshaw would be a quality 6 for England imo. Like you said, I hope Quins see the long-term benefit in moving him back to 6 and developing Wallace.

 

[Crapspray]

Whether or not Robshaw or Kvesic are better suited to the role, Lancaster will get a good estimate of what they'd be like together this weekend. Wood is similar enough to Robshaw to show what a move to 6 would do to Robshaw's game, and how Kvesic would perform alongside him. If we could transplant Wood or Robshaw's brain into Haskell's body we'd have a nicely balanced backrow...

That said, I would like to see the backrow of Wood, Robshaw, and Morgan again. It was very effective, and seemed well balanced; the two 6.5s were capable and industrious enough at the breakdown to allow Morgan to concentrate on defence and carrying. That's what I'd start come Autumn, with Kvesic on the bench for futher examination- unless he has two stormers against the Pumas.

 

[j'nuh]

I wouldn't be too upset with that for now, but I feel that it's a prerequisite of an international flanker to have some breakdown ability anyway, and preferable to have at least one with specialist ability in it. The breakdown is one of the most important aspects of modern rugby. A turnover is effectively worth a 30-40m gain, but often results in penalties, or even try-scoring chances. Effective disruption also ties up more opponents, decreasing their attacking options. I just think it's crucial to have at least one player to specialise in this rather than a group of opportunists. Kvesic may not absolutely storm international rugby in the autumn, but I think that if we invest the time in him early, then we'll reap the rewards a year or two later. (Just consider the Welsh backrow.)

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Not even sure why we're discussing this

 

[Patchey]

The music to that video is peculiarly chilled out...

 

[TRF_Olyy]

True, but it's AWOLNATION - Sail
and Sail = Sale, so it matches

also, isn't he fantastic? I watch that video at least 12 times a day
I swear he's made of flubber, look how quickly he's on his feet at the tackle at 2:49 (the quins one)

 

[dullonien]

Kvesic just has to play consistently better the Robshaw (which is no means easy as Robshaw is one of the most consistent performers). The argument is all down to is robshaw good enough to compete against world class number 7's? the only person who i saw he was clearly out classed by was Hooper for the aussies last year. He was preety much competitive against other number 7's (tipuric etc).

I thought Tipuric blew Robshaw out of the water in openside play. This isn't to say that Ropbshaw was poor, he was one of England's best performers, but he played a blindside role, and as such Tipuric (and Warburton) cleaned up. Wales have tried playing blindsides at openside on numerous occasions, and it never worked either.

Every time I hear Robshaw's stats they read like a blindise's. High tackle count and tiresome carrying without making too much ground. Comparing him to Welsh backrowers, he's closer to Lydiate than he is Tipuric.

Genuine opensides, i.e. quick, skilful link players, are hugely important at the moment, especially when the opposition have someone like that on their team.

 

[Galbraith]

So hypothetically, in a years time kvesic has developed nicely and is an excellent international 7, Wood and Robshaw are both playing 6 for their clubs, who would people play at 6 for england based on this seasons form? Assuming Morgan is 8

 

[TRF_Olyy]

So hypothetically, in a years time kvesic has developed nicely and is an excellent international 7, Wood and Robshaw are both playing 6 for their clubs, who would people play at 6 for england based on this seasons form? Assuming Morgan is 8

6. Fearns
7. Seymour
8. Morgan




Realistically, if Kvesic establishes himself at 7, I really really don't know.
In theory I always prefer a big hitter and/or carrier at 6, someone like Lydiate, Ferris, Fearns/O'Brien (when not shoehorned in at 7).
In Croft/Robshaw/Wood you have three very talented backrowers who all have a slightly different skillset - I'd probably say Wood as he's a good mix of what Croft and Robshaw bring, and is also very good at the breakdown.